ATL: Offseason

[Newz]

Kerb,

I will say, like I said before, that I think we want the same end game. We just have differing opinions on how to get there and how to approach this thing.

As far as quotes from the owners, GMs, scouts or whoever they are I'm sure that they hold some weight. I'll say that my honest opinion is that he is going to get drafted if he is any good, he'll play if he's any good and there won't be any major issues with him. I bet it goes smooth enough where within two or three years no one will even remember that this was a story and that he's gay to begin with.

I bet he is called a '****' and other terms that will offend him, but no more than really anyone else in the rest of the league. I'm sure opposing players will use it to try and get under his skin, but that isn't really any different than any other player. Hearing some of the trash talk stories from professional sports guys go after dead family members, sick family members, wives, girlfriends, children... all that stuff. Those guys are vicious, so I have no doubts that he will be verbally attacked on the field, but no more than other players... just in a different way.

I think in his own locker room and on his own team (wherever he ends up, if he ends up somewhere) that he will be accepted just fine. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe there will be a huge outrage amongst his teammates and things of that nature.

But what people have to remember when examining this is that the NFL over anything is about winning and it's performance based. Some teams will pass on him due to the media storm. I honestly think the Packers are one of them that will do so and it has nothing to do with him being gay... I just don't think they want that kind of attention. They never seem to draft controversial players.

Do you think if he works out poorly and doesn't project well and slips that people will blame it on his sexuality? Do you think if he plays at a Ricky Elmore level and gets cut right away taht people will say it's because he's gay? I personally think people will regardless of if it is right or wrong. I think that's part of the problem of making this as big of a deal as it is going to become and teams are going to be in a tricky position because this kid isn't an amazing, top of the draft talent. Do you risk taking him when there is a chance you may have to have him ride the bench or cut him? Do you risk the backlash of people saying they think you are a bigot and anti-gay because you got rid of a guy that just isn't that good?

[Kerb Hohl]

Sure, there may be some annoying counter-media terrorism if he simply doesn't cut it. That already happens. A civil rights organization may support a guy getting fired because he was gay and he thinks that was the reason. Maybe that really wasn't the reason. It's not a perfect world in that regard.

That still doesn't take away from this. It will be nice when the other players come out and for the most part we don't even get that question if they are cut. We aren't there yet.

The simple fact that probably 20+ players have to hide this fact of their life currently in the NFL should tell you that not everybody holds the same views as you.

[Newz]

I'm not going to respond to all of you seperately, so I'll say this as you all seem to believe I'm naive to the world around me and to the subject in general.

I understand what you are saying, I just disagree. I'm going to go on treating people the same and like they are equal.

If you guys feel as though you need to treat gay people differently and that the media needs to cover their sex life like it's a major breaking news story because you believe it will lead to acceptance and equality, then that's also fine. I just don't agree that treating people differently leads to eventually treating people the same.

[Kerb Hohl]

Would you consider going to a charity event with your wife part of your "sex life"?

[Newz]

Would you consider going to a charity event with your wife part of your "sex life"?

You can rephrase it as 'sexual preference', 'preference in partner' or whatever you'd like. Yes, I do consider that part of it.

If you want to treat someone differently based on that, then it's fine. I get that you think it's going to lead to equality. I do not. I just treat people the same regardless and I believe that's the best way to get other people to treat others equally.

[Kerb Hohl]

We've got "black history month" and a whole slew of things that acknowledged Jackie Robinson was black. You have to acknowledge it first before everything being equal. The goal is to have a society where these things all don't matter but first we all have to become aware of the issues to accept it in the first place.

Again, yes, I wouldn't really care about his orientation. That's you and me. Not everyone else. His ability to publicly be with the person he loves or go out and pick up somebody he's attracted to shouldn't have to be hidden from the world but right now it is for most of these guys. Once we get more social acceptance of that from the general population, then it won't be a big deal.

[emunney]

I'm not going to respond to all of you seperately, so I'll say this as you all seem to believe I'm naive to the world around me and to the subject in general.

I understand what you are saying, I just disagree. I'm going to go on treating people the same and like they are equal.

If you guys feel as though you need to treat gay people differently and that the media needs to cover their sex life like it's a major breaking news story because you believe it will lead to acceptance and equality, then that's also fine. I just don't agree that treating people differently leads to eventually treating people the same.

Are you aware that Iran doesn't have any gay people at all? But I'm sure they'd treat them great if they had any.

[Newz]

We've got "black history month" and a whole slew of things that acknowledged Jackie Robinson was black. You have to acknowledge it first before everything being equal. The goal is to have a society where these things all don't matter but first we all have to become aware of the issues to accept it in the first place.

Well I don't agree with the idea Black History Month either, so I'm not sure what to tell you on that one. I think it's insulting to think that black history and the accomplishments of black people can be summarized and bundled up into a monthly celebration. I think we should just teach and celebrate history regardless of race.

Again, yes, I wouldn't really care about his orientation. That's you and me. Not everyone else. His ability to publicly be with the person he loves or go out and pick up somebody he's attracted to shouldn't have to be hidden from the world but right now it is for most of these guys. Once we get more social acceptance of that from the general population, then it won't be a big deal.

But you do care about his orientation... you care about it enough to rally around the idea of it becoming a massive news story because you believe it will bring about equality for people of his orientation.

I care about it enough to treat him like everyone else. I am certainly not going to wish him success in the NFL just because he's gay. If he looks good at the combine, I'd say we should draft him. If my team drafts him, I'm going to root for him. If he's a Vikings, Lion or Bears player I'm going to hope he sucks.

[Newz]

I'm not going to respond to all of you seperately, so I'll say this as you all seem to believe I'm naive to the world around me and to the subject in general.

I understand what you are saying, I just disagree. I'm going to go on treating people the same and like they are equal.

If you guys feel as though you need to treat gay people differently and that the media needs to cover their sex life like it's a major breaking news story because you believe it will lead to acceptance and equality, then that's also fine. I just don't agree that treating people differently leads to eventually treating people the same.

Are you aware that Iran doesn't have any gay people at all? But I'm sure they'd treat them great if they had any.

I wasn't aware that we were living in Iran, talking about a situation in Iran or that any of this conversation had anything to do with Iran.

If you feel like this guy playing in the NFL is going to change anything about that country, I feel like you are wrong.

[Kerb Hohl]

We've got "black history month" and a whole slew of things that acknowledged Jackie Robinson was black. You have to acknowledge it first before everything being equal. The goal is to have a society where these things all don't matter but first we all have to become aware of the issues to accept it in the first place.

Well I don't agree with the idea Black History Month either, so I'm not sure what to tell you on that one. I think it's insulting to think that black history and the accomplishments of black people can be summarized and bundled up into a monthly celebration. I think we should just teach and celebrate history regardless of race.

Again, yes, I wouldn't really care about his orientation. That's you and me. Not everyone else. His ability to publicly be with the person he loves or go out and pick up somebody he's attracted to shouldn't have to be hidden from the world but right now it is for most of these guys. Once we get more social acceptance of that from the general population, then it won't be a big deal.

But you do care about his orientation... you care about it enough to rally around the idea of it becoming a massive news story because you believe it will bring about equality for people of his orientation.

I care about it enough to treat him like everyone else. I am certainly not going to wish him success in the NFL just because he's gay. If he looks good at the combine, I'd say we should draft him. If my team drafts him, I'm going to root for him. If he's a Vikings, Lion or Bears player I'm going to hope he sucks.

I should take a cue from those states of the teams you mention except for Minnesota, and not care about his orientation as their constitutions have told me to.

[Kerb Hohl]

I'm not going to respond to all of you seperately, so I'll say this as you all seem to believe I'm naive to the world around me and to the subject in general.

I understand what you are saying, I just disagree. I'm going to go on treating people the same and like they are equal.

If you guys feel as though you need to treat gay people differently and that the media needs to cover their sex life like it's a major breaking news story because you believe it will lead to acceptance and equality, then that's also fine. I just don't agree that treating people differently leads to eventually treating people the same.

Are you aware that Iran doesn't have any gay people at all? But I'm sure they'd treat them great if they had any.

I wasn't aware that we were living in Iran, talking about a situation in Iran or that any of this conversation had anything to do with Iran.

If you feel like this guy playing in the NFL is going to change anything about that country, I feel like you are wrong.

The most watched TV show in US history was on last week and it was put on by his future employer. We still have states where they are still getting over constitutional illegalities of sexual orientation.

When the news came out it was a talking point, not something I went out and bought a jersey of his to rally around. I'm not rallying around him per se, it's a monumental step in our society, though.

[Newz]

I should take a cue from those states of the teams you mention except for Minnesota, and not care about his orientation as their constitutions have told me to.

It's probably best to stay off of the topic of the Government and marriage as political views tend to flare things up pretty quick. I'll just say that I also disagree with the Government being able to determine who can marry who based on race or gender. Marriage isn't and wasn't created as a Government made instutition, they should have never stuck their nose in it in the first place.

[Newz]

Attempting to bring up this situation in relation to Iran is a massive reach and after this post I am going to ignore that particular part of the conversation. But Iran also executes people who practice Christianty. There are Christians in the NFL and Iran still executes them.

Something tells me Iran cares very, very little about what is going on in the NFL or what the orientation or beliefs of the players in the NFL are.

[Kerb Hohl]

I should take a cue from those states of the teams you mention except for Minnesota, and not care about his orientation as their constitutions have told me to.

It's probably best to stay off of the topic of the Government and marriage as political views tend to flare things up pretty quick. I'll just say that I also disagree with the Government being able to determine who can marry who based on race or gender. Marriage isn't and wasn't created as a Government made instutition, they should have never stuck their nose in it in the first place.

Regardless, I was a freshman in college when I was on the wrong side of a vote that government came in and made it illegal. That was 2005 or 2006. So the majority of voting people wanted to make it illegal. But apparently it's pretty socially acceptable.

[PkrsBcksGphsMqt]

Wow is this thread off topic.

[Kerb Hohl]

Wow is this thread off topic.

It's really not, but I've been yelled at for playing thread policeman before.

[MickeyDavis]

We have a Currents Affairs forum where all this can be talked about at will. I would appreciate taking the conversation over there and limiting this thread to football only. No matter how well intentioned these type of discussions always cross a line at some point

[emunney]

I'm not going to respond to all of you seperately, so I'll say this as you all seem to believe I'm naive to the world around me and to the subject in general.

I understand what you are saying, I just disagree. I'm going to go on treating people the same and like they are equal.

If you guys feel as though you need to treat gay people differently and that the media needs to cover their sex life like it's a major breaking news story because you believe it will lead to acceptance and equality, then that's also fine. I just don't agree that treating people differently leads to eventually treating people the same.

Are you aware that Iran doesn't have any gay people at all? But I'm sure they'd treat them great if they had any.

I wasn't aware that we were living in Iran, talking about a situation in Iran or that any of this conversation had anything to do with Iran.

If you feel like this guy playing in the NFL is going to change anything about that country, I feel like you are wrong.

I'd say you're missing the point but I think you're just being coy.

It is not OK to be gay in Iran (or Russia) because these kinds of discussions are systemically put down. Your desire for this farcical equality may be different in intent but it is no different in result: fewer people are openly gay, so fewer people know openly gay people, and thus being gay is still foreign and a generator of fear and distrust. When the President of Iran or the Mayor of Sochi brags about no gay people being around, they complete the feedback loop. We know what happens when people stay in the closet. We know what happens when they come out. One leads to acceptance and progress, one is just continued ignorance.

Equitable treatment is far more important than equal treatment, and I think you also agree with that despite your insistence in this narrow case on some good-sounding principle that doesn't actually help anybody. Unless you also think we should all be wearing the same size clothes, in which case I call dibs on my size.

[Newz]

We have a Currents Affairs forum where all this can be talked about at will. I would appreciate taking the conversation over there and limiting this thread to football only. No matter how well intentioned these type of discussions always cross a line at some point

Sounds good.

[Kerb Hohl]

Yeah I think we had really reached the end of what we could convince each other of anyways. It's a human issue like the concussion issue in football, but I guess it can be directed elsewhere.