Prime Gilbert Arenas or Current John Wall?

[Kanyewest]

I think Gilbert was a great player, nearly unstoppable on most nights, but John Wall`s game is more conducive to winning basketball over a long period of time. Wall not getting to the line, is part the offensive structure of our team as it never seems to allow John to have space to just take his man off the dribble. Never enough space, especially with Nene, and Gortat on the floor

Possibly, but not yet. Wizards still aren't over .500.

[hands11]

Also keep in mind we never actually saw a prime gil. Injuries stole what would have been his prime yrs. We only saw the prime yrs of the career he did have.

Also, arenas's ability to stop on a dime and pull up for a jumper from ANYWHERE with 18 second on the shot clock, is something that, let alone wall, no player in the league has right now. That is what made him a truly special player.

Fixed. LOL

Gil did have amazing 3 point range but there are no good coaches in the league that would allow him to jack shots with 18 seconds on the shot clock like he did. Its not sound offense.

Prime Gil did have some really nice moves like the cross over step back and he was very Harden in his driving.
He would have been better as a SG. But you could not run an offensive system with Gil playing PG at a legit was a legit deep playoff team. And he was a terrible man defender. Mostly because he didn't want to play defense. He had no interest in using his energy to do that. All he did was look for steals and thats only so he could get easy scorers. He should have been used like Harden is being used.

I wrote lots about how I felt Gil was in serious jeopardy of never living up to his potential. He had to much AI in him and I worried the light would go on to late for him to be a legit perennial AS great. If Gil wanted, he could have been truly great. A complete player that balanced being a true PG first, score and take over when needed player. A player that also cared about playing defense. But he wasn't interested in being that player at PG.

It would be hard to win it all with a Gil type as your PG. Specially making the stupid money he was making. Thinking that team was a step away from a title was a fools errand. GS is about as good I they might have looked and that's with a few roster adjustment. GS isn't winning any title. Not with OKC, MIA, DAL, IND and HOU around.

Gil was are really talented scorer and fun to watch for a few years, but I said it back then, the winning move would have been to trade him at his peak for a boatload of assets and to build a structurally sound team where the star was at SF with a true PF that could defend.

I think building this current team with Wall as the best and max player is another flowed model. It might work if they go way over the cap and can land a KD, but other then that, they are still missing the key piece they need to challenge for a title.

That said, I will still cheer them on because this is a lot better then what we had. Hopefully a new GM can develop something legit.

[Kanyewest]

Also keep in mind we never actually saw a prime gil. Injuries stole what would have been his prime yrs. We only saw the prime yrs of the career he did have.

Also, arenas's ability to stop on a dime and pull up for a jumper from ANYWHERE with 18 second on the shot clock, is something that, let alone wall, no player in the league has right now. That is what made him a truly special player.

Fixed. LOL

Gil did have amazing 3 point range but there are no good coaches in the league that would allow him to jack shots with 18 seconds on the shot clock like he did. Its not sound offense.

Prime Gil did have some really nice moves like the cross over step back and he was very Harden in his driving.
He would have been better as a SG. But you could not run an offensive system with Gil playing PG at a legit was a legit deep playoff team. And he was a terrible man defender. Mostly because he didn't want to play defense. He had no interest in using his energy to do that. All he did was look for steals and thats only so he could get easy scorers. He should have been used like Harden is being used.

I wrote lots about how I felt Gil was in serious jeopardy of never living up to his potential. He had to much AI in him and I worried the light would go on to late for him to be a legit perennial AS great. If Gil wanted, he could have been truly great. A complete player that balanced being a true PG first, score and take over when needed player. A player that also cared about playing defense. But he wasn't interested in being that player at PG.

It would be hard to win it all with a Gil type as your PG. Specially making the stupid money he was making. Thinking that team was a step away from a title was a fools errand. GS is about as good I they might have looked and that's with a few roster adjustment. GS isn't winning any title. Not with OKC, MIA, DAL, IND and HOU around.

Gil was are really talented scorer and fun to watch for a few years, but I said it back then, the winning move would have been to trade him at his peak for a boatload of assets and to build a structurally sound team where the star was at SF with a true PF that could defend.

I think building this current team with Wall as the best and max player is another flowed model. It might work if they go way over the cap and can land a KD, but other then that, they are still missing the key piece they need to challenge for a title.

That said, I will still cheer them on because this is a lot better then what we had. Hopefully a new GM can develop something legit.

Actually Wall shoots a lot of his jumpers with 18 seconds on the shot clock.

[spaceman_E]

Anyone who says Wall should have to state their age.

Still a damn shame we never got Gil a legit big to play with. And Oz makes a good point, Arenas' last healthy season was at 25. ok I don't want to upset myself more thinking about this

[hands11]

Also keep in mind we never actually saw a prime gil. Injuries stole what would have been his prime yrs. We only saw the prime yrs of the career he did have.

Also, arenas's ability to stop on a dime and pull up for a jumper from ANYWHERE with 18 second on the shot clock, is something that, let alone wall, no player in the league has right now. That is what made him a truly special player.

Fixed. LOL

Gil did have amazing 3 point range but there are no good coaches in the league that would allow him to jack shots with 18 seconds on the shot clock like he did. Its not sound offense.

Prime Gil did have some really nice moves like the cross over step back and he was very Harden in his driving.
He would have been better as a SG. But you could not run an offensive system with Gil playing PG at a legit was a legit deep playoff team. And he was a terrible man defender. Mostly because he didn't want to play defense. He had no interest in using his energy to do that. All he did was look for steals and thats only so he could get easy scorers. He should have been used like Harden is being used.

I wrote lots about how I felt Gil was in serious jeopardy of never living up to his potential. He had to much AI in him and I worried the light would go on to late for him to be a legit perennial AS great. If Gil wanted, he could have been truly great. A complete player that balanced being a true PG first, score and take over when needed player. A player that also cared about playing defense. But he wasn't interested in being that player at PG.

It would be hard to win it all with a Gil type as your PG. Specially making the stupid money he was making. Thinking that team was a step away from a title was a fools errand. GS is about as good I they might have looked and that's with a few roster adjustment. GS isn't winning any title. Not with OKC, MIA, DAL, IND and HOU around.

Gil was are really talented scorer and fun to watch for a few years, but I said it back then, the winning move would have been to trade him at his peak for a boatload of assets and to build a structurally sound team where the star was at SF with a true PF that could defend.

I think building this current team with Wall as the best and max player is another flowed model. It might work if they go way over the cap and can land a KD, but other then that, they are still missing the key piece they need to challenge for a title.

That said, I will still cheer them on because this is a lot better then what we had. Hopefully a new GM can develop something legit.

Actually Wall shoots a lot of his jumpers with 18 seconds on the shot clock.

Do you have a link to those stats ?

[pancakes3]

Do you have a link to those stats ?

Do you have a link to yours?

[nate33]

Arenas.

The problem with that Arenas-led team is that it wasn't built properly around him. It needed a Lance Stevenson/Doug Christie type of SG who could dole out 5 assists a night, and it would have been better with a Udonis Haslem/Taj Gibson type of power forward who played great D and nailed midrange shots. It also needed Haywood to play more minutes. If that had happened, they would have been a perennial 50-win team. Add a real two-way all star as a 2nd fiddle to Arenas, and they could have contended.

I'd rather have had a Marc Gasol center than Haywood, to space the floor and divvy assists from the pivot position while clearing some space for the dribble drive attacks. Haywood was a poor match for the no-hand-check offenses that Eddie and Gilbert revealed as the new era ideal.

Yes, I'd rather have Gasol too. But Gasol is an All Star and DOPY. I'm saying that Arenas was good enough to win with middling talent like Brendan Haywood if the team was constructed around him properly. Primarily, they needed a more defensive mindset. Rather than have an all-O no-D PF like Jamison, we'd have been better off with a mediocre-O good-D PF while shifting more of the scoring load to Arenas.

Gil has my heart, but I get the sense John has a better chance to win long term, his style lends itself better to team building. His trajectory suggests constant improvement on BOTH sides of the ball, where Gil was a phenomenon offensively, but on defense required so many compensations to keep the team credible that it was tough to figure the right assemblage of talent that would properly compensate. Loved Gil. But some part of his appeal was the cocktail of his flaws with his underdog nature, all elevated by that joyful rage to play. As Wall becomes more confident I'll be happy to see him learn how to seize control of the game in the way that Gil commonly did in an offhand manner.

I agree with this too. I think Wall's ultimate upside is higher than Arenas'. But the question posed in this thread is Prime Arenas versus Current Wall. I say Prime Arenas is better.

Prime Arenas versus Prime Wall is a different story.

[Youheardme90]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBqysjxznkA Gil 51 on Utah

[Sluggerface]

Anyone who says Wall should have to state their age.

Still a damn shame we never got Gil a legit big to play with. And Oz makes a good point, Arenas' last healthy season was at 25. ok I don't want to upset myself more thinking about this

A good big wouldn't have done anything for Arenas. You need a stretch 4 for the Princeton, and outside of Dirk, Jamison was probably the best Stretch 4 you could get at the time.

[pancakes3]

With Arenas you don't need a stretch 4, OR run the Princeton. You pick and roll the opposition to a slow, frustrating death.

[Sluggerface]

With Arenas you don't need a stretch 4, OR run the Princeton. You pick and roll the opposition to a slow, frustrating death.

Arenas best years came from the Princeton, because it plays to a scoring guards strengths. You have to be an effective facilitator to maximize the pick and roll, and that's something that Arenas was never going to be.

[hands11]

Anyone who says Wall should have to state their age.

Still a damn shame we never got Gil a legit big to play with. And Oz makes a good point, Arenas' last healthy season was at 25. ok I don't want to upset myself more thinking about this

With what money ?

[hands11]

Do you have a link to those stats ?

Do you have a link to yours?

I was being serious. I couldn't find stats for shoot by second left on the shot clock.

What stats are you looking for in regards to the points I made ?

[hands11]

Arenas.

The problem with that Arenas-led team is that it wasn't built properly around him. It needed a Lance Stevenson/Doug Christie type of SG who could dole out 5 assists a night, and it would have been better with a Udonis Haslem/Taj Gibson type of power forward who played great D and nailed midrange shots. It also needed Haywood to play more minutes. If that had happened, they would have been a perennial 50-win team. Add a real two-way all star as a 2nd fiddle to Arenas, and they could have contended.

I'd rather have had a Marc Gasol center than Haywood, to space the floor and divvy assists from the pivot position while clearing some space for the dribble drive attacks. Haywood was a poor match for the no-hand-check offenses that Eddie and Gilbert revealed as the new era ideal.

Yes, I'd rather have Gasol too. But Gasol is an All Star and DOPY. I'm saying that Arenas was good enough to win with middling talent like Brendan Haywood if the team was constructed around him properly. Primarily, they needed a more defensive mindset. Rather than have an all-O no-D PF like Jamison, we'd have been better off with a mediocre-O good-D PF while shifting more of the scoring load to Arenas.

Gil has my heart, but I get the sense John has a better chance to win long term, his style lends itself better to team building. His trajectory suggests constant improvement on BOTH sides of the ball, where Gil was a phenomenon offensively, but on defense required so many compensations to keep the team credible that it was tough to figure the right assemblage of talent that would properly compensate. Loved Gil. But some part of his appeal was the cocktail of his flaws with his underdog nature, all elevated by that joyful rage to play. As Wall becomes more confident I'll be happy to see him learn how to seize control of the game in the way that Gil commonly did in an offhand manner.

I agree with this too. I think Wall's ultimate upside is higher than Arenas'. But the question posed in this thread is Prime Arenas versus Current Wall. I say Prime Arenas is better.

Prime Arenas versus Prime Wall is a different story.

Primarily they needed a legit coach that actually know what the word defense meant. That coach would also have enough balls to manage Gilbert instead of being managed by Gilbert which EFJ was.

Part of that is on Gil. Gil was no Tim Duncan or even John Wall type personality.

Regarding a prime to prime comparison. It can't be done without talking about Walls upside because we haven't had prime Wall yet to compare against. And Wall is a different kind of player. Wall is a PG that can score. Gil was a SG that could pass that played the PG slot. If Gil were taller he would be Harden.

[spaceman_E]

Gil made $10m a season. So... with the other $40m+ we had to work with

[hands11]

With Arenas you don't need a stretch 4, OR run the Princeton. You pick and roll the opposition to a slow, frustrating death.

Basically the game Harden plays only Harden does it from the SG which makes it a better design. Harden isn't the 3 ball shooter Gil was but he is a little thicker and build better for driving. Neither was a leaper.

Gil vs Harden in their 5th years at age 24
http://bkref.com/tiny/TiZHj

Gil was higher usage and played more mins per game.
They shot the same number of 3s per 36 but Gil was more accurate
Gil shot more often per 36
ORtg is the same at 115
Harden got to the line more often per 36
Same number of assists per 36
Neither is a good defender

Very similar players but Harden is 2 inches taller playing SG while Gil played the same game from the PG slot which probably is why he was higher usage. He had the ball in his hands from the start.

So if you are need your gil fix, catch a Houston game and watch some Harden and a team that is built to win with that kind of player.

[pancakes3]

With Arenas you don't need a stretch 4, OR run the Princeton. You pick and roll the opposition to a slow, frustrating death.

Arenas best years came from the Princeton, because it plays to a scoring guards strengths. You have to be an effective facilitator to maximize the pick and roll, and that's something that Arenas was never going to be.

I... respectfully disagree with everything you said, and I'll leave it at that.

Do you have a link to those stats ?

Do you have a link to yours?

What stats are you looking for in regards to the points I made ?

I was just trying to point out that you made a cite-less claim that Gil shoots too early in the shot clock, but then turn around and call for a cite for someone else shooting too early in the shot clock. It seems hypocritical.

[Kanyewest]

Do you have a link to those stats ?

Nope, but just off of selective memory Wall does take bad shots down the stretches of games with time remaining on the shot clock when the Wizards are ahead. With Arenas, I agree that he took those same shots as well but in his prime he was a better jump shooter. I guess though with Wall I can't complain because he has been improving.

[hands11]

With Arenas you don't need a stretch 4, OR run the Princeton. You pick and roll the opposition to a slow, frustrating death.

Arenas best years came from the Princeton, because it plays to a scoring guards strengths. You have to be an effective facilitator to maximize the pick and roll, and that's something that Arenas was never going to be.

I... respectfully disagree with everything you said, and I'll leave it at that.

Do you have a link to yours?

What stats are you looking for in regards to the points I made ?

I was just trying to point out that you made a cite-less claim that Gil shoots too early in the shot clock, but then turn around and call for a cite for someone else shooting too early in the shot clock. It seems hypocritical.

Not being hypocritical. I wanted to actually see the data. I looked for a site and couldn't find one so I asked if you had one.

I agree Wall does it some and I hate when he does. But I watched a lot more Gil then I did Wall and since Gil was a better shooter for more years that I watched, I watched Gil do it a lot more. So I wanted to see what the data said.

Hard to forget Gil doing to walk up 30 foot 3 ball. And hitting it. Some days it seemed like Gil had endless range.

[Brenice]

Anyone claiming prime Wall will surpass prime Gil is wish full thinking. I hope Wall does surpass Gil, but he WONT do it by the age Gil got hurt. Before D-Will and CP3 was Agent Zero and Nash was running the league at point.