Prime Gilbert Arenas or Current John Wall?

[Kanyewest]

Now lets throw a wrench into the argument.

How would Wall look as a 22 yr old coming to DC to play under Eddie Jordan?

Keep in mind he had Hughes, Stackhouse, Kwame, Haywood, Thomas, Blake, Hayes, Dixon & Jeffries as teammates.

And how would Arenas look as a 20 yr old drafted to DC to play under Flip Saunders, then Randy Wittman.

Arenas' teammates would be Hinrich, Lewis, Young, Blatche, McGee, Crawford, Yi, Thornton, Armstrong & Evans as teammates.

Personally, I don't think Arenas would have handled the situation Wall was put into very well. I also think he would have been stifled by the offensive system Flip & subsequently Witt has been running. But on the flip side, Arenas might have actually been a solid defender, or at least a more disciplined one.

I think Wall might of put up some eye popping numbers under the freedom of Eddie's Princeton offense with his assist totals taking a big hit. I also think his defense would be a bigger issue than it is now with the lack of accountability from Eddie on that end of the court.

I agree that Wall is a better defender than Arenas. I think it has to do more with Wall's mentality than any coaching scheme. Even then, I'm not sure how significant the difference really is especially since there aren't really any shutdown defensive point guards. It is more important to have good defensive bigs and teams routinely could take advantage of Antawn Jamison.

BTW, I thought it was interesting that Arenas's offensive numbers with Flip Saunders in the 2009-10 season were actually not too far off to what John Wall is doing this year.

Per 36 Minutes Arenas
PPG- 22.2
Assists- 7.1
EFG%- .46
TS%- .511
FT%- .749

Per 36 Minutes Wall
PPG- 19.6
Assists- 8.3
EFG- .455
TS%- .517
FT%- .836

From the field, a post knee injury Arenas is about as efficient as Wall in terms of shooting. Arenas elected to shoot the ball more and get a few more points while Wall got a few more assists. For whatever the reason, Arenas became a worse free throw shooter which added up especially in close games. The knee surgeries also appeared to effect his 3 point shooting. Arenas may have also benefited from his superstar status- getting calls that Wall still does not get.

Of course Wall was better (a better defender, better assist to turnover player) but I think Arenas would have become just as good of an offensive player within Saunders system (and I don't think Saunders gets fired).

[stevemcqueen1]

Gil and Wall could have made for a devastating backcourt. They would have pushed each other. Alas.

I'd rather have Beal to play with Wall. Basketball-wise, Gil would have been too ball dominant to thrive with Wall, and he was much older than Wall, injury or no. And he wouldn't have truly let it be Wall's team like it needed to be. That was just never going to happen.

Also Gil destroyed our locker room and left our franchise a cratered ruin that's taken five years to recover from. And counting...

As a minimum, we can expect Beal not to bring guns into the **** locker room. So he's got that over Gil.

[pancakes3]

Fit does count for something but talent dwarves whatever that something is.

As for gungate, I think with all the crap that ensued with Crittenton, it stands to reason that Gil was minimally at fault (not completely blameless though).

[stevemcqueen1]

Fit does count for something but talent dwarves whatever that something is.

As for gungate, I think with all the crap that ensued with Crittenton, it stands to reason that Gil was minimally at fault (not completely blameless though).

Not completely blameless? He's the one who brought his guns into the locker room. You are whitewashing the Hell out of Gil. This whole thread is nothing but one big whitewash of Gil, ignoring all of his flaws, all of his off court BS, and his role in cratering the franchise and sending it to a nadir you wouldn't think possible given our embarrassing history. A nadir we're only now climbing out of the past calender year because of John Wall.

[FAH1223]

Not completely blameless? He's the one who brought his guns into the locker room. You are whitewashing the Hell out of Gil. This whole thread is nothing but one big whitewash of Gil, ignoring all of his flaws, all of his off court BS, and his role in cratering the franchise and sending it to a nadir you wouldn't think possible given our embarrassing history. A nadir we're only now climbing out of the past calender year because of John Wall.

Aside from gun gate and the silly stuff in the locker room before that with Blatche, etc... it's not like Gilbert was a criminal (as Crittenton currently is), he was a stand up guy in the community.

We've talked about his flaws in this thread of his undisciplined nature, his commitment to defense and other aspects aside from scoring.

And the culture was toxic before that incident and after.

[hands11]

Now lets throw a wrench into the argument.

How would Wall look as a 22 yr old coming to DC to play under Eddie Jordan?

Keep in mind he had Hughes, Stackhouse, Kwame, Haywood, Thomas, Blake, Hayes, Dixon & Jeffries as teammates.

And how would Arenas look as a 20 yr old drafted to DC to play under Flip Saunders, then Randy Wittman.

Arenas' teammates would be Hinrich, Lewis, Young, Blatche, McGee, Crawford, Yi, Thornton, Armstrong & Evans as teammates.

Personally, I don't think Arenas would have handled the situation Wall was put into very well. I also think he would have been stifled by the offensive system Flip & subsequently Witt has been running. But on the flip side, Arenas might have actually been a solid defender, or at least a more disciplined one.

I think Wall might of put up some eye popping numbers under the freedom of Eddie's Princeton offense with his assist totals taking a big hit. I also think his defense would be a bigger issue than it is now with the lack of accountability from Eddie on that end of the court.

Good questions. And I think that is partly what it comes down to. Gil didn't develop properly. He could have been a better complete PG and in doing so, he wouldn't have scored as much per game and he wouldn't have played so many minutes to do so. He could have easily assisted at a much higher rate. He was a great passer. He just didn't focus on doing it. But when he did for a game or two because his coach told him to pass more, then you got Gil dishing 20 assists and not shooting because he was reacting like a child. I also remember him doing the same thing when EJ tried to get them to feed the post more. Gil was about Gil scoring. It was entertaining a one level but it was also part of the problem.

I was thinking about this at the end of my last post.

It wasn't long ago I was really concerned if Wall would develop properly. For a while there, it just didn't look like you could clearly see he would make it in developing to his potential. I agree, if Wall had come to the team with EFJ as the HC, he could easily turn out to be much more one denominational like Gil. He would be driving for sure. Lot of FTAs like people want, but he wouldn't be as well rounded as he is becoming. Not unless Wall kept a really level head and wanted to be that kind of a PG. EJ tried to get Gil to do it but Gil wasn't having it and ultimately, EJ didn't have the influence to make him. EJ needed Gil more then Gil needed EJ. Randy has more influence then EJ did. And Randy is defensive minded so that helps as well.

EG has been inefficient as a GM but he did one thing right and its a big thing. He put a defensive minded coach in charge of the rebuild once he got a chance, he put a true SG next to Wall with a legit true PF and a center. All that is to say, he put the right pieces in place for Wall and Beal to develop properly. And that counts for a lot.

When Wall puts it all together, he is going to be the better PG in the Gil vs Wall debate. Actually, he already is the better PG but its going to be even more clear.

A lot of the problem with Gil was how he developed. By the time he was prime Gil, there was no sticking the Gennie back in the bottle. They would tell him to pass more and feed the post, but he wouldn't. Putting a Beal next to Gil couldn't work well. Gil sucked to much of the air out of the room. You could be wasting Beals talent. Gil wouldn't be passing up shots for Beal and if he did, there wouldn't be enough touches for Nene, Gortat and TA. So all you could do is put something like a defensive SG that would stand on the 3 line next to him, like a DS.

The Gil that develop was a high usage scoring machines. I would have rather he did a little less scoring and develop the PG side of his game more. That to me would have been a more dominate, team winning Gil that you could build a winner around.

I disagree on two points...

EG didn't really pick a defensive coach to put with Wall. Wittman was just left over to finish out the season after Flip got fired. The players liked Witt, the effort was there and most importantly at the time, Kevin Seraphin had a mini-breakout to end the year which likely saved Witt & Ernie's job. So both got two more years. Not sure that qualifies as finding the right coach to pair with Wall. Also, I wonder has Wall's growth been stunted by playing in such an outdated offensive system that so heavily emphasizes long 2s. Same with Beal.

Secondly, I think you've shortchanged Gil's offensive contributions time and time again. You can criticize Gil for a lot of things, but offensively he was an incredibly effective player for a 3-4 year stretch, and one of the best in the NBA. You really can't complain about the high volume of shots considering how efficient he was. Your suggesting he should have sacrificed shots to get less efficient players than him opportunities to score. Basically you wanted to break something that wasn't broke so it could better fit your particular view of how a PG should operate. Beal would have been fine with Arenas. Hughes was a selfish, shotjacking gunner, but he loved playing with Gil and had all sorts of problems playing with other guards during his career.

The problem with the Gil era had little to do with his shot selection and everything to do with the lack of accountability and structure that Abe, Ernie & Eddie failed to provide. The lack of accountability that allows a player to defecate in a teammates shoes, and gets away with it. The lack of accountability on the court where defense was never emphasized. Where Ernie trades for a max-contract in Jamison, Arenas' buddy, who refused to put forth any effort defensively.... thus emboldening Arenas to give a similar effort. Arenas not only had the coach who didn't care. But fellow locker room leader and team captain in Jamison, who co-signed the lack of effort. To me, that's the downfall of the Arenas era, a lack of accountability that starts from the very top.

Not sure why you are saying you are voicing differences. That is pretty much my view you just wrote. Some small difference of a chicken and egg nature but close enough.

[TheBlackCzar]

Gil and Wall could have made for a devastating backcourt. They would have pushed each other. Alas.

I'd rather have Beal to play with Wall. Basketball-wise, Gil would have been too ball dominant to thrive with Wall, and he was much older than Wall, injury or no. And he wouldn't have truly let it be Wall's team like it needed to be. That was just never going to happen.

Also Gil destroyed our locker room and left our franchise a cratered ruin that's taken five years to recover from. And counting...

As a minimum, we can expect Beal not to bring guns into the **** locker room. So he's got that over Gil.

I think you are going a bit far......Our FO screwed the pooch with stupid personnel decisions, devaluing Gil and AB was dumb. Trading pick 5 was dumb. These decisions cratered the franchise.......

[stevemcqueen1]

Gil and Wall could have made for a devastating backcourt. They would have pushed each other. Alas.

I'd rather have Beal to play with Wall. Basketball-wise, Gil would have been too ball dominant to thrive with Wall, and he was much older than Wall, injury or no. And he wouldn't have truly let it be Wall's team like it needed to be. That was just never going to happen.

Also Gil destroyed our locker room and left our franchise a cratered ruin that's taken five years to recover from. And counting...

As a minimum, we can expect Beal not to bring guns into the **** locker room. So he's got that over Gil.

I think you are going a bit far......Our FO screwed the pooch with stupid personnel decisions, devaluing Gil and AB was dumb. Trading pick 5 was dumb. These decisions cratered the franchise.......

Trading the fifth overall pick that year was inexcusable. I hated the move at the time.

But the FO didn't devalue Gil and Blatche. If anything we massively overvalued them. Those guys killed their own value. Gil ruined what was left of his career with Gungate. That was his decision. Gil was an unprofessional, immature manchild and no team built around him as their franchise player was ever going to be legit. THAT was our biggest mistake. And his actions and subsequent suspension crushed us, crushed any chance at salvaging that era. It compounded the mistake of trading the draft pick, and the mistake of paying him and building the team around him. And we paid for it--Gil's flameout plunged us into 5 straight 50+ loss seasons.

Blatche was a bum. If anything we overvalued him based on a small stretch of good games. Blatche got chance after chance. And he dug his hole deeper every time.

I enjoyed Gil because he was fun but I never believed in those teams or felt they were legit. John is legit. That's something I've pretty much never doubted. He's going to be SO much more successful than Gil was.

[Nivek]

Skimmed the first couple pages, and was glad to see so many recognizing peak Arenas as the better player. Folks saying Arenas was anywhere in the vicinity of the league's best players are overstating more than a little. Similarly, those talking about Arenas as a bad guy, as lacking competitive fire, or as being an awful defender are overstating as well. He was juvenile to be sure, but his teammates loved him and he played, practiced and worked as hard or harder than anyone.

On defense, he was okay on balance despite the team's misguided defensive strategies that placed emphasis on steals and forcing turnovers. I was tracking the team's defense on an individual level during his peak seasons, and he was hardly their weak link. In terms of defensive efg, he was about average. He also was typically among the team leaders in turnovers forced, and he grabbed a decent number of defensive boards for a guard. He did allow too much undirected penetration (though it's tough to say how much he's to blame for that considering the team's vacillating force rules), and he sometimes lost track of his man on the weakside. On the other hand, Arenas could ALWAYS be counted on to hustle back in fast break situations, and to use his fouls well in transition.

The team's defensive problems were a) scheme; b) big men (or how big man playing time was allotted -- Haywood was a good defender, but sat for substantial (and key) stretches while inferior defenders (Thomas and Ruffin) played in his place); and c) defensive "stoppers" who weren't (Jared Jeffries, for example).

On offense, Arenas was a devastating weapon -- one of the most efficient high-usage players in the game.

The problem with Arenas: he got hurt. And then again. And again.

And finally, this comparison really should be made again at some point down the road. Wall (hopefully) hasn't peaked yet.

[Dat2U]

I'd rather have Beal to play with Wall. Basketball-wise, Gil would have been too ball dominant to thrive with Wall, and he was much older than Wall, injury or no. And he wouldn't have truly let it be Wall's team like it needed to be. That was just never going to happen.

Also Gil destroyed our locker room and left our franchise a cratered ruin that's taken five years to recover from. And counting...

As a minimum, we can expect Beal not to bring guns into the **** locker room. So he's got that over Gil.

I think you are going a bit far......Our FO screwed the pooch with stupid personnel decisions, devaluing Gil and AB was dumb. Trading pick 5 was dumb. These decisions cratered the franchise.......

Trading the fifth overall pick that year was inexcusable. I hated the move at the time.

But the FO didn't devalue Gil and Blatche. If anything we massively overvalued them. Those guys killed their own value. Gil ruined what was left of his career with Gungate. That was his decision. Gil was an unprofessional, immature manchild and no team built around him as their franchise player was ever going to be legit. THAT was our biggest mistake. And his actions and subsequent suspension crushed us, crushed any chance at salvaging that era. It compounded the mistake of trading the draft pick, and the mistake of paying him and building the team around him. And we paid for it--Gil's flameout plunged us into 5 straight 50+ loss seasons.

Blatche was a bum. If anything we overvalued him based on a small stretch of good games. Blatche got chance after chance. And he dug his hole deeper every time.

I enjoyed Gil because he was fun but I never believed in those teams or felt they were legit. John is legit. That's something I've pretty much never doubted. He's going to be SO much more successful than Gil was.

Revisionist history bro. I swear I'd expect that post from a non-Wizards fan.. not someone that supposedly knows the team through and through.

We weren't undone by Gil's gun-gate. We were undone by Ernie. His complete mismanagement of the cap, his questionable roster moves, his coaching decisions and the toxic culture in which no one was held accountable that he never sought to change. Only difference b/w Ernie now and then is that Ernie had more power under Abe. Abe was dying a slow death, in a wheelchair sleeping most of the day with random moments of consciousness. The owner's dying wish was to win and win now so Ernie trades a high lottery pick for the expiring contracts of reserves Randy Foye & Mike Miller. Yeah, way to piss on the grave of the owner that believed and trusted in you.

The man can't even fulfill a dying man's wish without making the franchise a laughing stock after his death.

In Ernie we trust I guess.

Gun-gate doesn't happen if the culture where anything goes didn't exist. Gun-gate also only got out to the public because Ernie threw Arenas under the bus (see leak to Vescey at NY Post) ... because he saw a potential way to get out of a bad contract he negotiated.

The culture was terrible and there was absolutely no accountability before gun-gate. That season, Flip's first as Wizards coach, we were coming apart at the seams with Gil being a shell of his former self and the constant bickering b/w Caron and Gil. We were 3-4 games under .500 when gun gate happened. Caron had lost a step but his attitude was on 10. Jamison was still the Leader of Men who lead by example, especially on defense. Stevenson was brutally bad on the court. Foye turned out to be the scrub everyone knew he already was. Young, McGee & Blatche were all young players soaking up the atmosphere where everyone did their own thing. The team was in chaos. Add in a crazy nut case like Critt (Thanks Ernie - we traded a 1st rd pick for a future murderer!) and we had a recipe for disaster.

But lets forget all of that and simply blame it ALL on Gil. That's a much simpler answer really, even if it's completely wrong.

[Nivek]

Yeah, I think blaming Pollin for the 5th for Miller and Foye trade is borderline disgraceful. Pollin said he wanted to win. He didn't say swap the pick for a good shooter and a journeyman.

[Induveca]

Looking at the gate receipts, the consensus is Arenas all day long. He single handedly made gate receipts rise by 15 percent. Fans loved him.

[fishercob]

Prime Gilbert v. Current John.

Not close.

[AFM]

Who can forget Gil's game winner where he raised his arms and walked away without watching it go in?
That has to be in the top 10 game winners of all time, even though it wasn't a playoff game, just because of the sheer amount of balls it takes to raise your arms like "ayo I'm THAT DUDE" before it even went in.

[daSwami]

Who can forget Gil's game winner where he raised his arms and walked away without watching it go in?
That has to be in the top 10 game winners of all time, even though it wasn't a playoff game, just because of the sheer amount of balls it takes to raise your arms like "ayo I'm THAT DUDE" before it even went in.

Which one? Gil had a bunch of game-winners. One season it seemed like every other game ended with Gil taking his man off dribble, creating space and pulling up for a game-winning three. It was uncanny.

[daSwami]

I think you are going a bit far......Our FO screwed the pooch with stupid personnel decisions, devaluing Gil and AB was dumb. Trading pick 5 was dumb. These decisions cratered the franchise.......

Trading the fifth overall pick that year was inexcusable. I hated the move at the time.

But the FO didn't devalue Gil and Blatche. If anything we massively overvalued them. Those guys killed their own value. Gil ruined what was left of his career with Gungate. That was his decision. Gil was an unprofessional, immature manchild and no team built around him as their franchise player was ever going to be legit. THAT was our biggest mistake. And his actions and subsequent suspension crushed us, crushed any chance at salvaging that era. It compounded the mistake of trading the draft pick, and the mistake of paying him and building the team around him. And we paid for it--Gil's flameout plunged us into 5 straight 50+ loss seasons.

Blatche was a bum. If anything we overvalued him based on a small stretch of good games. Blatche got chance after chance. And he dug his hole deeper every time.

I enjoyed Gil because he was fun but I never believed in those teams or felt they were legit. John is legit. That's something I've pretty much never doubted. He's going to be SO much more successful than Gil was.

Revisionist history bro. I swear I'd expect that post from a non-Wizards fan.. not someone that supposedly knows the team through and through.

We weren't undone by Gil's gun-gate. We were undone by Ernie. His complete mismanagement of the cap, his questionable roster moves, his coaching decisions and the toxic culture in which no one was held accountable that he never sought to change. Only difference b/w Ernie now and then is that Ernie had more power under Abe. Abe was dying a slow death, in a wheelchair sleeping most of the day with random moments of consciousness. The owner's dying wish was to win and win now so Ernie trades a high lottery pick for the expiring contracts of reserves Randy Foye & Mike Miller. Yeah, way to piss on the grave of the owner that believed and trusted in you.

The man can't even fulfill a dying man's wish without making the franchise a laughing stock after his death.

In Ernie we trust I guess.

Gun-gate doesn't happen if the culture where anything goes didn't exist. Gun-gate also only got out to the public because Ernie threw Arenas under the bus (see leak to Vescey at NY Post) ... because he saw a potential way to get out of a bad contract he negotiated.

The culture was terrible and there was absolutely no accountability before gun-gate. That season, Flip's first as Wizards coach, we were coming apart at the seams with Gil being a shell of his former self and the constant bickering b/w Caron and Gil. We were 3-4 games under .500 when gun gate happened. Caron had lost a step but his attitude was on 10. Jamison was still the Leader of Men who lead by example, especially on defense. Stevenson was brutally bad on the court. Foye turned out to be the scrub everyone knew he already was. Young, McGee & Blatche were all young players soaking up the atmosphere where everyone did their own thing. The team was in chaos. Add in a crazy nut case like Critt (Thanks Ernie - we traded a 1st rd pick for a future murderer!) and we had a recipe for disaster.

But lets forget all of that and simply blame it ALL on Gil. That's a much simpler answer really, even if it's completely wrong.

Agreed. Gil paid by far the biggest price for gun-gate, but the blame should be laid on multiple people. But blaming him for "cratering" (or whatever term we're using) the franchise is straight-up scapegoating. A well-run team would have never allowed the locker room culture to devolve into the mess it became.

That said, the silver lining is that EG has apparently learned his lesson. He did end up getting rid of the inmates who were running the asylum (i.e., Gil, Young, Blatche, Javale) and brought in guys like Mo Evans and Nene, guys who don't suffer fools kindly. And "good" guys like Webster, Ariza and Okafor who could serve as 'mentors.' This is a better climate for Wall to succeed than the one he came into.

[AFM]

Who can forget Gil's game winner where he raised his arms and walked away without watching it go in?
That has to be in the top 10 game winners of all time, even though it wasn't a playoff game, just because of the sheer amount of balls it takes to raise your arms like "ayo I'm THAT DUDE" before it even went in.

Which one? Gil had a bunch of game-winners. One season it seemed like every other game ended with Gil taking his man off dribble, creating space and pulling up for a game-winning three. It was uncanny.

I think he had 2 or 3 in this very month:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgrmUy8PVA0[/youtube]

[nate33]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgrmUy8PVA0[/youtube]

I never tire of watching this.

[FAH1223]

Who can forget Gil's game winner where he raised his arms and walked away without watching it go in?
That has to be in the top 10 game winners of all time, even though it wasn't a playoff game, just because of the sheer amount of balls it takes to raise your arms like "ayo I'm THAT DUDE" before it even went in.

I remember that. It was against Milwaukee and then he had another vs. Utah right in Deron Williams grill.

[cwb3]

What is heartbreaking is that in a better structured organization, Gil could possibly still be Agent Zero today. A better GM would have built a more sound/balanced team around him. A better coach could have instilled more consistent defensive discipline in him. A good medical staff could have handled the injury rehab and recovery better. Gil's prime was way too short.