Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong

[Nivek]

Actually, missing on Leonard and Faried is very much like picking Darko over Carmelo -- both Leonard and Faried were more productive over their first three seasons than Carmelo was. But, Carmelo came to the NBA younger. Leonard had a couple years in college; Faried played 4 years. So, it's not a completely fair comparison.

Agreed that Grunfeld is playing with house money at this point. There's zero doubt he'll remain on the job. Wittman too. They've already exceeded the goal Leonsis set for them this season.

[Brenice]

Actually, missing on Leonard and Faried is very much like picking Darko over Carmelo -- both Leonard and Faried were more productive over their first three seasons than Carmelo was. But, Carmelo came to the NBA younger. Leonard had a couple years in college; Faried played 4 years. So, it's not a completely fair comparison.

Agreed that Grunfeld is playing with house money at this point. There's zero doubt he'll remain on the job. Wittman too. They've already exceeded the goal Leonsis set for them this season.

In what universe?

[leswizards]

It is a huge strecth, but you can get there:

Bibby - $6 million

Bibby -- yes.

IMHO, buying out Bibby is not saving money, it is wasting money. The Wizards had Kirk Hinrich, a productive player, on a very reasonable contract. EG turned that into Crawford who did nothing, and had to be traded to Boston for Collins, and Barbaso. The Wizards paid those 2 players to do basically nothing. The Wizards also got a draft pick for Hinrich, which they turned into Chris Singleton. They paid Singleton a few million to do basically nothing for a few seasons, and who will be gone next season.

[Nivek]

Actually, missing on Leonard and Faried is very much like picking Darko over Carmelo -- both Leonard and Faried were more productive over their first three seasons than Carmelo was. But, Carmelo came to the NBA younger. Leonard had a couple years in college; Faried played 4 years. So, it's not a completely fair comparison.

Agreed that Grunfeld is playing with house money at this point. There's zero doubt he'll remain on the job. Wittman too. They've already exceeded the goal Leonsis set for them this season.

In what universe?

This one.

[Nivek]

It is a huge strecth, but you can get there:

Bibby - $6 million

Bibby -- yes.

IMHO, buying out Bibby is not saving money, it is wasting money. The Wizards had Kirk Hinrich, a productive player, on a very reasonable contract. EG turned that into Crawford who did nothing, and had to be traded to Boston for Collins, and Barbaso. The Wizards paid those 2 players to do basically nothing. The Wizards also got a draft pick which they turned into Chris Singleton. They paid Singleton a few million to do basically nothing for a few seasons, and who will be gone next season.

Hmm. The Wiz paid the remainder of Bibby's salary for that season when they acquired him. In exchange, he agreed to waive the guaranteed $6.2 million he was owed the following season. I think it's right to call that savings.

[leswizards]

$23 million Blatche Amnesty -> ~$40 million in luxury tax payments

Blatche amnesty would be a stretch. First, Grunfeld gave Blatche the extension in the first place, which led to the need to amnesty Blatche in the second (note that Blatche's amnesty happened before the extension had even begun). And, it's a stretch to assume luxury tax payments were avoided by amnestying him because other moves could have been handled differently that would have resulted in not paying the luxury tax. Amnestying Blatche was an expense.

I don't recall the Wizards being in luxury tax area when Blatche was amnestied. My recollection is that he was amnestied because the Wizards had just reached the end of the road with him, and were desperate to be rid of him. I don't think the Wizards saved anything by amnesting.

[FreckleFace]

I really hope Tomas works out for us

[leswizards]

Hmm. The Wiz paid the remainder of Bibby's salary for that season when they acquired him. In exchange, he agreed to waive the guaranteed $6.2 million he was owed the following season. I think it's right to call that savings.

The Wizards had an asset in Hinrich. EG turned that into nothing but liabilities. Yes he reduced the liabilities by buying out Bibby, but I don't view that as saving money. I view it as wasting money.

[closg00]

Kevin - Did Mike Wise reply to your request to him to back-up his $100 million? savings claim?

[milellie111]

Actually, missing on Leonard and Faried is very much like picking Darko over Carmelo -- both Leonard and Faried were more productive over their first three seasons than Carmelo was. But, Carmelo came to the NBA younger. Leonard had a couple years in college; Faried played 4 years. So, it's not a completely fair comparison.

Agreed that Grunfeld is playing with house money at this point. There's zero doubt he'll remain on the job. Wittman too. They've already exceeded the goal Leonsis set for them this season.

You are making it seem as if Ted is different than any other owner, as if his expectations are somewhat much lower. At the end of the day, all owners are the same. Business men first, sports fans second. Profit matters most. A successful team usually and eventually leads to more profit. I'm not buying the whole Ted set expectations for Ernie to make the playoffs etc. ANY owner in this situation right now would have the same feelings about Grunfelds job at the moment from a business standpoint. What owner in their right mind would even consider thinking about firing a GM whose team is up 1-0 in the second round of the playoffs with rising young stars, increased profits, and has a good shot at making the ECF??

[DCZards]

I don't understand why after doing something the franchise hasn't done since 1982, someone would take to a message board to declare victory for their allegiance to an executive. No do I understand why ardent fans of the same team would be so consumed with their dislike for an executive when the team is actually playing well.

Lock this thread until the playoff are done!

Yeah, this pro-EG, anti-EG debate kinda reminds me of Capitol Hill where the extremists on both sides of the aisle shout at each other and use the same set of facts to make opposite arguments. I'm sensing a little desperation from the anti-EG side who realize that the handwriting is on the wall and EG will be here at least another year...for better or for worse.

I suspect that most Zard fans though are just enjoying the playoff ride and not getting into the weeds as to what EG shoulda, coulda done as far as trades, draft picks and other assets.

GO ZARDS!

[verbal8]

$23 million Blatche Amnesty -> ~$40 million in luxury tax payments

Blatche amnesty would be a stretch. First, Grunfeld gave Blatche the extension in the first place, which led to the need to amnesty Blatche in the second (note that Blatche's amnesty happened before the extension had even begun). And, it's a stretch to assume luxury tax payments were avoided by amnestying him because other moves could have been handled differently that would have resulted in not paying the luxury tax. Amnestying Blatche was an expense.

I don't recall the Wizards being in luxury tax area when Blatche was amnestied. My recollection is that he was amnestied because the Wizards had just reached the end of the road with him, and were desperate to be rid of him. I don't think the Wizards saved anything by amnesting.

I got that figure by looking at the salary owed to Blatche for this year and the next 2 since the Wizards presumably will be near the luxury tax all those years.

[milellie111]

Calling Out All Haters!!.....Crickets.....

You were a hater, and you are posting, so we are hearing more than the crickets.

Talking about those who still are haters for no reason buddy.

[Nivek]

Kevin - Did Mike Wise reply to your request to him to back-up his $100 million? savings claim?

I posted it over in the other thread. He said that he'd do the math and to give him a couple days. So, we'll see.

[milellie111]

I don't understand why after doing something the franchise hasn't done since 1982, someone would take to a message board to declare victory for their allegiance to an executive. No do I understand why ardent fans of the same team would be so consumed with their dislike for an executive when the team is actually playing well.

Lock this thread until the playoff are done!

Yeah, this pro-EG, anti-EG debate kinda reminds me of Capitol Hill where the extremists on both sides of the aisle shouting at each other and using the same set of facts to make opposite arguments. I'm sensing a little desperation from the anti-EG side who realize that the handwriting is on the wall and EG will be here at least another year...for better or for worse.

Supporters of management at least have sound basis for their beliefs and arguments....wins.

But unfortunately, the anti-EG crowd does not even have a current valid reason for being anti-EG. They are narrow-minded individuals who focus on one argument: the past. They cannot objectively look at any current success Grufeld has done without somehow trying to devalue it by saying he "lucked" into it or that was the "obvious" pick. Perhaps this crowd is so scorned from the past, it has prevented them from moving on and letting go. It has clearly become an unfair personal dislike for the man Ernie Grunfeld himself, more so than a respect for the business man Ernie Grunfeld has become. If a business owner loses tens of millions starting out, but then becomes successful and gains hundreds of milions, the lost money in the past becomes forgotten. Currently, Ernie Grunfeld has done more good than harm for the Washington Wizards.

[fishercob]

Calling Out All Haters!!.....Crickets.....

You were a hater, and you are posting, so we are hearing more than the crickets.

Talking about those who still are haters for no reason buddy.

Why were your reasons valid but others' aren't? Maybe different "haters" have different timelines for coming around to not being haters any more. Why do you care so much? Why do you have a vested interest into what others think about Ernie Grunfeld?

Supporters of management at least have sound basis for their beliefs and arguments....wins.

But unfortunately, the anti-EG crowd does not even have a current valid reason for being anti-EG. They are narrow-minded individuals who focus on one argument: the past. They cannot objectively look at any current success Grufeld has done without somehow trying to devalue it by saying he "lucked" into it or that was the "obvious" pick. Perhaps this crowd is so scorned from the past, it has prevented them from moving on and letting go. It has clearly become an unfair personal dislike for the man Ernie Grunfeld himself, more so than a respect for the business man Ernie Grunfeld has become. If a business owner loses tens of millions starting out, but then becomes successful and gains hundreds of milions, the lost money in the past becomes forgotten. Currently, Ernie Grunfeld has done more good than harm for the Washington Wizards.

It's all about how you choose to look at it, milellie111. The "wins" you speak of occurred in the past as well -- they are just more recent than the same mistakes that you took issue with. The grammatical folly of your final sentence illustrates this; "currently" people "do," they do not "have done." So while many are pleased with the Wizards recent success (and some recent moves to bring in Miller, Gooden, etc), they are still very wary of the body of work as a whole.

Which bring me back to my point -- why do care? To the extent that you could (you can't) what would you gain by convincing someone that Ernie is a better executive than they believe.

There's a PLAYOFF series going on, dude. Focus.

[MikeTheKid]

Actually, missing on Leonard and Faried is very much like picking Darko over Carmelo -- both Leonard and Faried were more productive over their first three seasons than Carmelo was. But, Carmelo came to the NBA younger. Leonard had a couple years in college; Faried played 4 years. So, it's not a completely fair comparison.

Agreed that Grunfeld is playing with house money at this point. There's zero doubt he'll remain on the job. Wittman too. They've already exceeded the goal Leonsis set for them this season.

I'm not buying the whole Ted set expectations for Ernie to make the playoffs etc. ANY owner in this situation right now would have the same feelings about Grunfelds job at the moment from a business standpoint.

Your the dumbest troll, trolls usually know what there talking about. Ted basically went on the record stating the goal was to make the playoffs and there would be problems if they didn't ya goofy!!!

[leswizards]

Calling Out All Haters!!.....Crickets.....

You were a hater, and you are posting, so we are hearing more than the crickets.

Talking about those who still are haters for no reason buddy.

I never hated Ted nor Randy unlike you. And, I really don't hate EG, but I think he should be fired for all the reasons that have been stated before, and I stand by those feelings. And, I have posted far before you ever created this thread, that in spite of EG's incompetence, the Wizards were not that far from being where I wanted them to be. So, shut up and eat your crow you hater.

I also didn't hate on John Wall (unlike you), and I argued that John Wall was worth the contract extension he got.

[Nivek]

Actually, missing on Leonard and Faried is very much like picking Darko over Carmelo -- both Leonard and Faried were more productive over their first three seasons than Carmelo was. But, Carmelo came to the NBA younger. Leonard had a couple years in college; Faried played 4 years. So, it's not a completely fair comparison.

Agreed that Grunfeld is playing with house money at this point. There's zero doubt he'll remain on the job. Wittman too. They've already exceeded the goal Leonsis set for them this season.

You are making it seem as if Ted is different than any other owner, as if his expectations are somewhat much lower. At the end of the day, all owners are the same. Business men first, sports fans second. Profit matters most. A successful team usually and eventually leads to more profit. I'm not buying the whole Ted set expectations for Ernie to make the playoffs etc. ANY owner in this situation right now would have the same feelings about Grunfelds job at the moment from a business standpoint. What owner in their right mind would even consider thinking about firing a GM whose team is up 1-0 in the second round of the playoffs with rising young stars, increased profits, and has a good shot at making the ECF??

No, I'm not saying Leonsis is different than other owners. Honestly, I don't care whether he's different or the same. I thought Leonsis should have replaced Grunfeld long ago. The team being poised to reach the Eastern Conference Finals (over at the blog, I estimated the Wizards as having a 60% chance of beating the Pacers in this series) is a) hella fun, and b) as much a function of luck as design.

But, at least Grunfeld assembled a team good enough to take advantage of the good fortune of a weak conference and a staggering top seed. And, why not enjoy some good fortune -- especially considering how crappy the franchise's luck has been for the past few decades.

Truth be told, when I predicted the team's record in the preseason, I figured there was little chance Grunfeld would be replaced. Now with a nice playoff run (and yes, beating Chicago was very nice -- just as beating Indy will be nice), I really don't see any way Leonsis will fire him. And, considering that Leonsis set a goal and the team met it (exceeded it, really), Leonsis shouldn't fire him. (It should have been done years ago, lol.)

[milellie111]

You were a hater, and you are posting, so we are hearing more than the crickets.

Talking about those who still are haters for no reason buddy.

Why were your reasons valid but others' aren't? Maybe different "haters" have different timelines for coming around to not being haters any more. Why do you care so much? Why do you have a vested interest into what others think about Ernie Grunfeld?

Supporters of management at least have sound basis for their beliefs and arguments....wins.

But unfortunately, the anti-EG crowd does not even have a current valid reason for being anti-EG. They are narrow-minded individuals who focus on one argument: the past. They cannot objectively look at any current success Grufeld has done without somehow trying to devalue it by saying he "lucked" into it or that was the "obvious" pick. Perhaps this crowd is so scorned from the past, it has prevented them from moving on and letting go. It has clearly become an unfair personal dislike for the man Ernie Grunfeld himself, more so than a respect for the business man Ernie Grunfeld has become. If a business owner loses tens of millions starting out, but then becomes successful and gains hundreds of milions, the lost money in the past becomes forgotten. Currently, Ernie Grunfeld has done more good than harm for the Washington Wizards.

It's all about how you choose to look at it, milellie111. The "wins" you speak of occurred in the past as well -- they are just more recent than the same mistakes that you took issue with. The grammatical folly of your final sentence illustrates this; "currently" people "do," they do not "have done." So while many are pleased with the Wizards recent success (and some recent moves to bring in Miller, Gooden, etc), they are still very wary of the body of work as a whole.

Which bring me back to my point -- why do care? To the extent that you could (you can't) what would you gain by convincing someone that Ernie is a better executive than they believe.

There's a PLAYOFF series going on, dude. Focus.

I don't care about convincing anyone of anything and if you read my original posting you will see that was not my intent. I just made an assertion, then folks started attacking, belittling my point of view, and spewing out past transactions/draft picks etc. to which I responded.

In sports, current success and what have you done for me lately is the only thing that matters. A GM who wins a few championships over a decade ago can only be defined by his current body of work. So a GM who currently is having success shouldn't be defined by his past body of work. Right or wrong?

And I am watching the playoffs, focused, enjoying them very much and posting in other threads. We can all talk about other subjects though even while the playoffs are going on.