The Right time to make a BIG Move

ATLHawksfan21 · Post #121 » by **ATLHawksfan21** » Mon Jun 9, 2014 2:51 pm

I wouldn't trade #8 for Teague. Teague is coming in to his groove and he is signed on a bargain deal if he can consistently perform as well as he did at the end of the season. I think he will be able to do just that if our lineup is more steady next year and we stay injury free.

Post #122 » by **dms269** » Mon Jun 9, 2014 3:26 pm

PandaKidd wrote:http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/233703/Cavaliers-To-Offer-Kyrie-Irving-Max-Deal-On-July-1

Think Kyrie signs it?

Isn't he a rfa? I don't think it matters if he signs it because the Cavs van just watch any offer.

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PandaKidd · Post #123 » by **PandaKidd** » Mon Jun 9, 2014 4:25 pm

uga_dawgs24 wrote:
PandaKidd wrote:http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/233703/Cavaliers-To-Offer-Kyrie-Irving-Max-Deal-On-July-1

Think Kyrie signs it?

Isn't he a rfa? I don't think it matters if he signs it because the Cavs van just watch any offer.

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hes not RFA yet. Hes under rookie deal IIRC.

If he doesnt sign the extension, then the Cavs will trade him because that means he doesnt want to stay. No rookie has turned down the extension from what I have heard.

why turn down 90 million?

He is under contract for the next 2 years.

D21 · Post #124 » by **D21** » Mon Jun 9, 2014 4:27 pm

Hi everybody,

I've updated the Hawks Salaries Information thread with numbers for this 2014 Free Agency :
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=815375

Still need to add cap holds of our F.A. (if we don't renounce them but want to use cap room)

Post #125 » by **Jamaaliver** » Mon Jun 9, 2014 5:08 pm

PandaKidd wrote:http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/233703/Cavaliers-To-Offer-Kyrie-Irving-Max-Deal-On-July-1

Think Kyrie signs it?

uga_dawgs24 wrote:Isn't he a rfa? I don't think it matters if he signs it because the Cavs van just watch any offer.

Honestly, I'm not sure. That entire organization has been run into the ground recently. He's getting the brunt of the criticism at this point for that entire team's failures. But he's on his 3rd coach in two years there. The personnel put around him has been a poor fit. The city is a small market that won't attract Free Agents. And there is a good chance he will no longer be the man once Embiid or Wiggins is drafted.

He is not yet a RFA, but it's more about leverage at this point. If the team waits to trade him when he is a RFA, he could effect any potential deals by refusing to sign an extension.

But if he refuses the extension, which I think he SHOULD, he has to be moved so the team has a clean slate for the upcoming season.

PandaKidd · Post #126 » by **PandaKidd** » Mon Jun 9, 2014 5:26 pm

and whoever gets him NOW gets him at 2 years :WINNING:

Post #127 » by **Jamaaliver** » Mon Jun 9, 2014 6:19 pm

PandaKidd wrote:and whoever gets him NOW gets him at 2 years :WINNING:

Indeed!

The first season, he actually makes LESS salary than Jeff Teague. Kyrie in our system would be nigh unstoppable. I mean, if he can avg 20/6 on a team with no offense and a terrible coach...just imagine what he would do here.

It's even more exciting because the kid isn't even approaching his prime, yet.

azuresou1 · Post #128 » by **azuresou1** » Mon Jun 9, 2014 6:44 pm

I'm pretty sure no rookie has ever declined his rookie max extension. Not only is it the biggest increase they can get, but it's also guaranteed a year earlier.

It's much more likely that Kyrie signs the extension and then tries to force a trade than him not signing it.

ATLHawksfan21 · Post #129 » by **ATLHawksfan21** » Mon Jun 9, 2014 6:48 pm

PandaKidd wrote:http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/233703/Cavaliers-To-Offer-Kyrie-Irving-Max-Deal-On-July-1

Think Kyrie signs it?

I would say that there is less than a 1% chance that Kyrie doesn't sign it. There's a reason why no player has ever passed up this type of offer and that's because it's too good to be true. With his injury history, he would be crazy to pass up on all of that guaranteed money and I will be shocked if he does.

Dreaming of Kyrie is even more far-fetched than dreaming of Melo in my opinion.

Post #130 » by **dms269** » Mon Jun 9, 2014 7:17 pm

The problem is even if he does turn it down, he doesn't have the leverage in any deal. If the cavs have shown they want to keep him (by offering him a max deal), he has to realize that even if he signs with someone else, he is going to get matched by the Cavs.

The only person it hurts is him by not getting the max he can.

PandaKidd · Post #131 » by **PandaKidd** » Mon Jun 9, 2014 7:50 pm

uga_dawgs24 wrote:The problem is even if he does turn it down, he doesn't have the leverage in any deal. If the cavs have shown they want to keep him (by offering him a max deal), he has to realize that even if he signs with someone else, he is going to get matched by the Cavs.

The only person it hurts is him by not getting the max he can.

I tend to see it that way. He has no way to leave until minimum 2 years from now, max 3. Hes under contract for 14/15 and 15/16 (QO) and youre right the Cavs would match anything anyone offers him as long as he doesnt get hurt.

He either:
A) Signs the max extension and accepts his fate (collects 90 million) and tries to get out in 3 years.

B) Declines, hopes he can get out NEXT year, but prays he doesnt tear an ACL or end his playing career all together (which is why he will 100% sign it IMO)

C) Can they do a SnT? Where he tells the Cavs unequivocally hes not staying and is only doing this for the money and they trade him anyway?

PandaKidd · Post #132 » by **PandaKidd** » Mon Jun 9, 2014 7:53 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
PandaKidd wrote:and whoever gets him NOW gets him at 2 years :WINNING:

Indeed!

The first season, he actually makes LESS salary than Jeff Teague. Kyrie in our system would be nigh unstoppable. I mean, if he can avg 20/6 on a team with no offense and a terrible coach...just imagine what he would do here.

It's even more exciting because the kid isn't even approaching his prime, yet.

The more I read it the more its an absolute certainty that he signs it.

Think about if you were in his position. you HATE where you are at, but we are talking a guaranteed contract of 90 million over 5 years? 18 million per year is DOUBLE his salary next year if he doesnt sign it. Hed almost be financially stupid NOT to sign it.

His best bet is to sign it, hope for the best and force a trade in 3 years.

ATLHawksfan21 · Post #133 » by **ATLHawksfan21** » Mon Jun 9, 2014 8:29 pm

PandaKidd wrote:
Jamaaliver wrote:
PandaKidd wrote:and whoever gets him NOW gets him at 2 years :WINNING:

Indeed!

The first season, he actually makes LESS salary than Jeff Teague. Kyrie in our system would be nigh unstoppable. I mean, if he can avg 20/6 on a team with no offense and a terrible coach...just imagine what he would do here.

It's even more exciting because the kid isn't even approaching his prime, yet.

The more I read it the more its an absolute certainty that he signs it.

Think about if you were in his position. you HATE where you are at, but we are talking a guaranteed contract of 90 million over 5 years? 18 million per year is DOUBLE his salary next year if he doesnt sign it. Hed almost be financially stupid NOT to sign it.

His best bet is to sign it, hope for the best and force a trade in 3 years.

It's not even an almost. He would be 100% dumb to not sign that deal. I think we have a better chance at trading for the #1 pick than we do for Kyrie.

PandaKidd · Post #134 » by **PandaKidd** » Mon Jun 9, 2014 8:50 pm

yeah youre right, what I dont know, is if something like HARDEN comes along, a situation like that.

he says "im not signing" and the Cavs trade him to another team, and then THAT team gives him an extension to make him happy.

Didnt that happend with Harden?

ATLHawksfan21 · Post #135 » by **ATLHawksfan21** » Mon Jun 9, 2014 9:14 pm

PandaKidd wrote:yeah youre right, what I dont know, is if something like HARDEN comes along, a situation like that.

he says "im not signing" and the Cavs trade him to another team, and then THAT team gives him an extension to make him happy.

Didnt that happend with Harden?

Not at all. Harden had no idea that he was going to be traded. Okc made him an offer and gave him like 5 hours to accept. He declined and they traded him the next day. He was shocked that it happened

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PandaKidd · Post #136 » by **PandaKidd** » Mon Jun 9, 2014 9:19 pm

Not at all. Harden had no idea that he was going to be traded. Okc made him an offer and gave him like 5 hours to accept. He declined and they traded him the next day. He was shocked that it happened

The bold is what matters.
Ok, well cant Kyrie in july say basically NO to the Cavs, and force them to trade him. Then SIGN with whoever acquires him?

Harden didnt sign his extension (which was worth FAR less IIRC).

I dont think its out of the realm of possibility to know that whoever winds up with KI if they want to keep him sign him ASAP to at least the 4 year deal they would be entitled to

Post #137 » by **Jamaaliver** » Mon Jun 9, 2014 9:59 pm

ATLHawksfan21 wrote:Not at all. Harden had no idea that he was going to be traded.

C'mon. he had an idea he might he traded. He has agents and I assume ESPN or the internet.

uga_dawgs24 wrote:The problem is even if he does turn it down, he doesn't have the leverage in any deal.

Not entirely true. Windhorst over at ESPN actually detailed some of this before the trade deadline this year:

The Cavs have Irving signed through the 2014-15 season and because he would then be a restricted free agent, the team controls his rights through at least the '15-16 season. But that is misleading, as Irving's future will likely be determined this summer because of something team owner Dan Gilbert vowed back in 2012. Gilbert said he learned a major lesson from 2010 when he lost LeBron James, and that is to never let his franchise player get to free agency again. He said so himself.

"The key thing, whoever you are and wherever you are, you cannot wait," Gilbert said before last season. "The big lesson was if a player is not willing to extend, no matter who they are, no matter where they are playing, no matter what kind of season you had, you cannot risk going into a summer and having them leave."

ATLHawksfan21 · Post #138 » by **ATLHawksfan21** » Mon Jun 9, 2014 10:05 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
ATLHawksfan21 wrote:Not at all. Harden had no idea that he was going to be traded.

C'mon. he had an idea he might he traded. He has agents and I assume ESPN or the internet.

uga_dawgs24 wrote:The problem is even if he does turn it down, he doesn't have the leverage in any deal.
Not entirely true. Windhorst over at ESPN actually detailed some of this before the trade deadline this year:

The Cavs have Irving signed through the 2014-15 season and because he would then be a restricted free agent, the team controls his rights through at least the '15-16 season. But that is misleading, as Irving's future will likely be determined this summer because of something team owner Dan Gilbert vowed back in 2012. Gilbert said he learned a major lesson from 2010 when he lost LeBron James, and that is to never let his franchise player get to free agency again. He said so himself.

"The key thing, whoever you are and wherever you are, you cannot wait," Gilbert said before last season. "The big lesson was if a player is not willing to extend, no matter who they are, no matter where they are playing, no matter what kind of season you had, you cannot risk going into a summer and having them leave."

He really didnt. Every one was shocked by the trade and no one saw it coming. He declined the offer thinking that they would continue negotiating. Okc traded harden bc they couldn't afford to keep west. Durant. Ibaka and harden. Cleveland doesn't have this problem so i doubt they will be eager to trade their supposed star player when its highly unlikely that they can attract a star in free agency

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Post #139 » by **Jamaaliver** » Mon Jun 9, 2014 10:13 pm

This piece from yahoo Sports illustrates what type of leverage KI has going forward:

Irving is on a rookie deal, so he is committed to the Cavaliers next season, and he could sign that contract extension this season. In the summer of 2015, should he have passed on that extension, Irving could either seek out other teams to sign with as a restricted free agent, or accept Cleveland’s qualifying offer for 2015-16. The Cavs would immediately match any restricted offer, no matter how dear, and working for the QO would be a problem – Irving would have to sign off on any subsequent trade the Cavaliers would eventually make in order to receive some compensation prior to his leaving as an unrestricted free agent in 2016. An anti-Decision maneuver.

HERE

It is a lot of money to leave on the table. But signing that deal pretty much takes away any power he has at all. He'd be stuck in a miserable town on a terrible team. KG, K-Love, CP3, Bosh will all tell him it's not worth it.

ATLHawksfan21 · Post #140 » by **ATLHawksfan21** » Mon Jun 9, 2014 10:34 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:This piece from yahoo Sports illustrates what type of leverage KI has going forward:

Irving is on a rookie deal, so he is committed to the Cavaliers next season, and he could sign that contract extension this season. In the summer of 2015, should he have passed on that extension, Irving could either seek out other teams to sign with as a restricted free agent, or accept Cleveland’s qualifying offer for 2015-16. The Cavs would immediately match any restricted offer, no matter how dear, and working for the QO would be a problem – Irving would have to sign off on any subsequent trade the Cavaliers would eventually make in order to receive some compensation prior to his leaving as an unrestricted free agent in 2016. An anti-Decision maneuver.
HERE

It is a lot of money to leave on the table. But signing that deal pretty much takes away any power he has at all. He'd be stuck in a miserable town on a terrible team. KG, K-Love, CP3, Bosh will all tell him it's not worth it.

I disagree. None of those players would sacrifice major guaranteed dollars early in ther career. They all had a chance to and didn't.

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