therealbig3 wrote:Well, it goes beyond the box score for me...by quite a bit imo. Kobe compares favorably to Bird in terms of production, but nobody can deny that the effects of spacing and off-ball movement aren't captured by the box, but are certainly extremely valuable. Bird did that a lot better than Kobe (especially if we're consistent and we consider how Bird would do with greater emphasis on the 3pt shot and the value of a stretch 4...he'd be a superhuman Dirk). And yeah, they both get a comparable number of assists, but that speaks to Bird's ability as a passer, that he can play a lot more off-ball (Kobe was the lead guard for the Lakers) and still rack up the assists, because he was that good at finding the open man. This is why to me, even in a lot of those series where Bird's efficiency suffers...he's still having superstar impact that was comparable to Kobe's impact when he's dropping 25/5/5 on 55% TS (or something similar)...possibly still superior impact tbh.
Ok, but you haven't really explained how Bird did better. Kobe's AST% is higher too, and he was playing in the Tri which isn't assist friendly to begin with.
Just in terms of impact, Kobe was a prolific scorer for LA AND their primary playmaker. I posted this earlier, but its worth repeating...
Boston playmakers:1980: Tiny 8.4, Bird 4.5
1981: Tiny 7.7, Bird 5.5
1982: Tiny 8.0, Bird 5.8
1983: Tiny 6.2, Bird 5.8
1984: Bird 6.6, DJ 4.2
1985: DJ 6.8, Bird 6.6
1986: Bird 6.8, DJ 5.8
1987: Bird 7.6, DJ 7.5
1988: DJ 7.8, Bird 6.1
1990: Bird 7.5, DJ 6.5
Laker playmakers:2000: Kobe 4.9, Shaq 3.8
2001: Kobe 5.0, Fisher 4.4
2002: Kobe 5.5, Fox 3.5
2003: Kobe 5.9, Fisher 3.6
2004: Payton 5.5, Kobe 5.1
2005: Kobe 6.0, Chucky 4.4
2006: Odom 5.5, Kobe 4.5
2007: Kobe 5.4, Odom 4.8
2008: Kobe 5.4, Odom 3.5
2009: Kobe 4.9, Pau 3.5
2010: Kobe 5.0, Pau 3.4
2011: Kobe 4.7, Pau 3.3
Kobe never had the luxury of playing off the ball much. What exactly gives Bird the edge on offense?
Now, defense seems to be a big point of contention here. I've watched a lot more Kobe than Bird, simply because there's a lot more available footage for Kobe, and I'm a little young to have watched Bird's full career, and I didn't become an avid NBA fan until 03, and have been playing catch up ever since. But what I have seen from Bird in what I've watched, and what seems to be strongly supported by articles and analysis by people that DID watch him play a lot more extensively was that he was a very strong help defender. Great at playing passing lanes, stripping the ball, deflecting the ball, doubling, etc. And that's one area of the game that I feel Kobe has always been somewhat lacking in. He's a notorious ball watcher...when he's not defending the ball handler, his man has a tendency to get open. In terms of man defense, even as he's aged, I feel like Kobe has always been solid when he's locked in, except for the last few years. But what we know about defense is that it's a team effort...individual man to man defense isn't going to move the needle all that much...it's about fitting into a team concept, and that's where Kobe lacks when compared to Bird, and that's why I find it really hard to not take Bird over Kobe defensively, despite Kobe's superior man defense. Furthermore, Bird was considered an average man defender as a SF...but even in his era, and especially if he had played closer to today, he was a PF defensively, and he's a great man defender at PF...strong, tough, smart, quick, great hands, high motor, etc. And then of course, we throw in defensive rebounding, where Bird trumps Kobe quite soundly.
I watched Bird play, in person no less as a kid, and I wouldn't say he was a great help defender. in general, not many players in the 80's were great defenders. Sure, you had enforcers/bangers who would knock you around, but there was ALOT of standing around on defense back then. Bird was maybe a notch above Nique on D. But for the most part when both faced each other it was all offense. Bird was burned quite a bit.
Like i said before, this is a strange debate to have because its like someone asking if Nique was a better defender than Lebron. All i can point out are the differences, what their peers thought, and videos. If people think Nique is still an equal defender...all i cand o is throw my hands up and just leave it.
Overall, despite the apparent non-existent difference, or even slight advantage for Kobe in the box score, Bird does a lot of things that you're just not going to find in the box score but still helps teams tremendously. That's why +/- is pretty highly valued around here, because I think everyone can accept that the box score doesn't capture everything. +/-, while obviously not perfect, is telling us what everyone wants to know: how much is a certain player helping his team?
Ok...so what does Bird do that Kobe doesn't? Since Kobe had the greater team success with lesser support. And I'm not sure why your referencing +/- when Bird doesn't have those numbers.
