Love #5: P. 88, Bulls 'moving on' from Love

[kingkirk]

Tony Snell per 36
10.1 points
9.8 shots
.384 FG%
.320 3pt%
.489 TS%

Jimmy Butler per 36
12.2 points
9.9 shots
.397 FG%
.283 3pt%
.522 TS%

Mike Dunleavy per 36
12.9 points
10.8 shots
.430 FG%
.380 3pt%
.549 TS%

Kevin Martin per 36
21.5 points
16.9 shots
.430 FG%
.387 3pt%
.553 TS%

One of those at percentages/volume is not like the other

If the point you're trying to illustrate is that Martin is a more talent scorer than our current wings, quite obviously, it's a no brainer.

I'd be surprised if 80% of Bulls weren't prepared to package Dunleavy & Snell for Martin right now if they could. That's not that issue, though.

Martin can score, he has value and would bring that to the Bulls. That's not the issue.

If he is being dumped by Minnesota, why dump our own asset for him in Gibson? That is the issue.

If Martin is being flagged as not wanted by the Wolves, why trade a dollar for a dollar. They don't value him, so let's give them .80c for their $1.

[Rerisen]

If not Martin who are the other SG's out there that you see who can fill our hole? Any news on Alec burks? With gordon hayward staying their backcourt seems crowded.

Would people really want to give up Taj for Burks?

Because you aren't getting him with Dunleavy.

[DRoseCantStop]

another high quality SG prospect

i hope you dont mean waiters

Or Martin.

[Rerisen]

I actually just looked up TT's stats on wiki... Sign me up for this guy! Player 1: 6'9 225. 13 points/7 boards in roughly 29 mins per game. Also played all 82 games. Player 2: 6'9 238. 12 points/9 boards per game in roughly 31 mins per game. Also played all 82 games. Player 2 is Tristan Thompson, he's actually bigger than Taj and actually put up better stats in roughly the same amount of playing time. He's also 6-7 years younger! Holy cow, I feel like some of you guys too in love with Taj... If we get TT and KMart (who can start at the 2 right away) that's a pretty big upgrade IMO.

Pretty sure the outlined deal was TT, Martin AND Waiters.

Not sure how it ever got about just Martin vs Taj... as that's kind of a no-brainer no, to me anyway.

[Swarles Xavier]

If not Martin who are the other SG's out there that you see who can fill our hole? Any news on Alec burks? With gordon hayward staying their backcourt seems crowded.

Would people really want to give up Taj for Burks?

Because you aren't getting him with Dunleavy.

No not at all. Just wondering who else is out there because there doesn't seem to be much options.

[dumbell78]

Oakley won the rebounding title in 1988, 12 ppg, 13 rebs per game, just 24-years-old. Cartwright meanwhile was Ewing's back up in New York, 11 ppg, 5 rebs per game, 30-years-old. You really think Bulls got equal value for Oakley in 1988?

Bulls got greater TEAM value for him because Horace + plus the emergence of Scottie made up even more of the difference. Bulls knew what they had in that trio, Charles was holding back Horace an it was proven after the trade. We just needed a boy at the center spot that could do the dirty work.

What you're asking now is to trade someone like Horace Grant (when you already dont have a Scottie Pippen) for a guy like Danny Ainge and expect Danny to be your 2nd option next to MJ. BTW- Im just throwing Ainge out there because he came to mind quickly as a KMart type guy that could shoot it.

Revisionist history. Pippen and Grant both had relatively mediocre rookie years in 1988. They were anything but sure things. Krause projected them based on why he drafted them in the first place, not because of anything great they showed as rookies. Oakley was easily our 2nd best player in 1988.

KC made my point but what exactly has Nikola proven in the NBA? Revisionist from my end (maybe) but 100% accurate within the Bulls FO, they nailed it so they knew exactly what they were doing. Horace backing up Charles and giving you 8 and 5 and playing decent D proves my point. Nikola aint no Horace and you dont have a MJ +Scottie to buffer a trade for a guy like KMart.

Again your comparisons arent even close with all due respect. Taj for KMart for THIS team is an awful trade for us.

[kingkirk]

Because they might not be available later. Martin might be a cheap throw in they just need a 3rd team for. To miss that opportunity could be bad.

And they might be available later on as well, no?

We don't know what is around the corner. 12 months ago, did we know we would be so close to Anthony? Players in the Love/Martin sweepstakes?

Did we know we'd be cashing in on the Cat's picking and landing McDermott?

Did we know that Rose would miss another season? Did we know Noah would be on the 1st team All NBA and the DPOY?

I am not saying forget about it, don't try to improve the team now if we can, but we should also be weary of being overly reactionary and trying to plug in holes with stop gaps that may or may not be required.

[DanTown8587]

Tony Snell per 36
10.1 points
9.8 shots
.384 FG%
.320 3pt%
.489 TS%

Jimmy Butler per 36
12.2 points
9.9 shots
.397 FG%
.283 3pt%
.522 TS%

Mike Dunleavy per 36
12.9 points
10.8 shots
.430 FG%
.380 3pt%
.549 TS%

Kevin Martin per 36
21.5 points
16.9 shots
.430 FG%
.387 3pt%
.553 TS%

One of those at percentages/volume is not like the other

If the point you're trying to illustrate is that Martin is a more talent scorer than our current wings, quite obviously, it's a no brainer.

I'd be surprised if 80% of Bulls weren't prepared to package Dunleavy & Snell for Martin right now if they could. That's not that issue, though.

Martin can score, he has value and would bring that to the Bulls. That's not the issue.

If he is being dumped by Minnesota, why dump our own asset for him in Gibson? That is the issue.

If Martin is being flagged as not wanted by the Wolves, why trade a dollar for a dollar. They don't value him, so let's give them .80c for their $1.

Give me the plan that makes more sense then. Because if it's keeping Taj, what is the long term hope'? The wing rotation just has massive internal growth? Even though only one of them (McDermott) ever projected as a scorer and even that potential is unknown.

People keep **** on Martin but he had a clear positive impact on Westbrook/Durant two years ago and last year when he played with the other Wolves starters, they were +12 per 100.

[Polynice4Pippen]

Bulls got greater TEAM value for him because Horace + plus the emergence of Scottie made up even more of the difference. Bulls knew what they had in that trio, Charles was holding back Horace an it was proven after the trade. We just needed a boy at the center spot that could do the dirty work.

What you're asking now is to trade someone like Horace Grant (when you already dont have a Scottie Pippen) for a guy like Danny Ainge and expect Danny to be your 2nd option next to MJ. BTW- Im just throwing Ainge out there because he came to mind quickly as a KMart type guy that could shoot it.

Revisionist history. Pippen and Grant both had relatively mediocre rookie years in 1988. They were anything but sure things. Krause projected them based on why he drafted them in the first place, not because of anything great they showed as rookies. Oakley was easily our 2nd best player in 1988.

KC made my point but what exactly has Nikola proven in the NBA? Revisionist from my end (maybe) but 100% accurate within the Bulls FO, they nailed it so they knew exactly what they were doing. Horace backing up Charles and giving you 8 and 5 and playing decent D proves my point. Nikola aint no Horace and you dont have a MJ +Scottie to buffer a trade for a guy like KMart.

Again your comparisons arent even close with all due respect. Taj for KMart for THIS team is an awful trade for us.

So why does Mirotic have a nearly $20 million contract, a guarantee not to be traded and won't be traded even for top 10 picks?

Also, we're not asking Nikola to be Horace. We're asking him to be a back up PF.

[kingkirk]

If we don't even know that Mirotic is a back up NBA PF then why did we give him almost $20 million? Why did we turn down top 10 picks for him? Why did we make him a promise not to trade him? Gar/Pax strongly believe he'll be a player, and at the least know he can handle back up minutes the way Horace and Omer did as rookies.

I have faith in Mirotic becoming a role player at worst at some point in his career, but why is that guaranteed to be next season, especially with all the other things going on his life such as learning a new culture, assimilating into a new country, new teammates, new coach and a new system.

Things will take time.

I will be very surprised if Mirotic is capable of giving us back up minutes from the get go next season. That's not a knock on his obvious talent, but there are other variables in play here that may make the going tough for Nikola early on.

I want to ease him along slowly and not burden him from the get go. My guess is that Thibs agrees with that notion as well.

[Rerisen]

And they might be available later on as well, no?

Not Martin, he's going to be gone in the Love deal if we don't get in on it.

We don't know what is around the corner. 12 months ago, did we know we would be so close to Anthony? Players in the Love/Martin sweepstakes?

We knew we would have tons of flexibility and assets, but we still failed to fix the problem.

If we wait... this isn't just going to be like finding the next Nate or Augustin. Finding a legit SG that can score high volume, efficinecy, and/or get his own shot somewhat, those guys don't come in the garbage bin.

More likely we'll be trying to cram Aaron Brooks into the lineup with Rose if we wait and don't find anybody by the time the season starts.

Because its just hard to look at the league and see these great fit SGs that are out there. Guys like Afflalo and Lance weren't even sure things and they are like top 5-7 SG in the whole league.

What do you feel about the TT/Martin/Waiters deal? I'm on the fence.

[Rerisen]

My guess is that Thibs agrees with that notion as well.

I'm sure he does. But the FO? Maybe not.

Thibs also agreed with the notion that Deng was his long lost son. Lot of good it did him.

[NecessaryEvil]

Rumor Press @NBARumorPress · 11h
Chicago wants Love, but they wouldn't mind getting a starting wing either. That's where Martin and a potential 3 team deal comes into play.

Rumor Press @NBARumorPress · 11h
Minnesota asked about McDermott, but they're less willing to give him up over Taj or Mirotic.

Rumor Press @NBARumorPress · 11h
If any Bulls deal happens with Minnesota and/or Cleveland, McDermott is unlikely to be involved.

[DanTown8587]

For the people who think Taj+Dunleavy for the Waiters, Thompson, Martin package isn't enough, what is enough?

[Polynice4Pippen]

If we don't even know that Mirotic is a back up NBA PF then why did we give him almost $20 million? Why did we turn down top 10 picks for him? Why did we make him a promise not to trade him? Gar/Pax strongly believe he'll be a player, and at the least know he can handle back up minutes the way Horace and Omer did as rookies.

I have faith in Mirotic becoming a role player at worst at some point in his career, but why is that guaranteed to be next season, especially with all the other things going on his life such as learning a new culture, assimilating into a new country, new teammates, new coach and a new system.

Things will take time.

I will be very surprised if Mirotic is capable of giving us back up minutes from the get go next season. That's not a knock on his obvious talent, but there are other variables in play here that may make the going tough for Nikola early on.

I want to ease him along slowly and not burden him from the get go. My guess is that Thibs agrees with that notion as well.

The guy's making over $5 million a year. He's a 23-year-old professional and Euro league stud. He's ready to be a back up NBA PF.

[kingkirk]

Give me the plan that makes more sense then. Because if it's keeping Taj, what is the long term hope'? The wing rotation just has massive internal growth? Even though only one of them (McDermott) ever projected as a scorer and even that potential is unknown.

People keep **** on Martin but he had a clear positive impact on Westbrook/Durant two years ago and last year when he played with the other Wolves starters, they were +12 per 100.

My plan is to not make reactionary decision in July before the season has started and before many questions of this team have been answered.

We're forgetting the biggest question in all of this, which is Rose. I would like to see that being answered to a degree before making moves like Taj for Martin.

We have no pressure to make a trade right now. The playoffs don't start next week and we have 0 idea with what happens to Martin in this Love trade.

We have 0 idea if he will be include in the deal or not. We have 0 idea if Minnesota will dump him instantly if not included in the Love deal.

Given we have limited knowledge, and given the season hasn't even started yet and we don't know how McDermott, Snell, Mirotic, Rose & Gasol will perform, making reactionary moves now may benefit us, but they could equally back fire.

We are under no pressure or rush to consolidate right now. The only pressure that exists is the perceived one that is generated on this board.

[Rerisen]

Rumor Press @NBARumorPress · 11h
Chicago wants Love, but they wouldn't mind getting a starting wing either. That's where Martin and a potential 3 team deal comes into play.

Rumor Press @NBARumorPress · 11h
Minnesota asked about McDermott, but they're less willing to give him up over Taj or Mirotic.

Rumor Press @NBARumorPress · 11h
If any Bulls deal happens with Minnesota and/or Cleveland, McDermott is unlikely to be involved.

I thought Mirotic was the one with the promise.

I'm not buying anyone knows right now.

[dumbell78]

Revisionist history. Pippen and Grant both had relatively mediocre rookie years in 1988. They were anything but sure things. Krause projected them based on why he drafted them in the first place, not because of anything great they showed as rookies. Oakley was easily our 2nd best player in 1988.

KC made my point but what exactly has Nikola proven in the NBA? Revisionist from my end (maybe) but 100% accurate within the Bulls FO, they nailed it so they knew exactly what they were doing. Horace backing up Charles and giving you 8 and 5 and playing decent D proves my point. Nikola aint no Horace and you dont have a MJ +Scottie to buffer a trade for a guy like KMart.

Again your comparisons arent even close with all due respect. Taj for KMart for THIS team is an awful trade for us.

So why does Mirotic have a nearly $20 million contract, a guarantee not to be traded and won't be traded even for top 10 picks?

Also, we're not asking Nikola to be Horace. We're asking him to be a back up PF.

Cool Im with you, lets see him do it before we unload Taj for less value. If Nikola is worth anything close to that 20 mil contract then we can discuss moving Taj especially for a lower caliber player, ie your Oak for Cartwright deal.

[DanTown8587]

Can we stop talking about what Thibs wants? That's not what people mean when they say the team. The FO group had a chance to give Taj the starting job and all they did was spend their cap on TWO PF.

[NecessaryEvil]

Rumor Press @NBARumorPress · 11h
Chicago wants Love, but they wouldn't mind getting a starting wing either. That's where Martin and a potential 3 team deal comes into play.

Rumor Press @NBARumorPress · 11h
Minnesota asked about McDermott, but they're less willing to give him up over Taj or Mirotic.

Rumor Press @NBARumorPress · 11h
If any Bulls deal happens with Minnesota and/or Cleveland, McDermott is unlikely to be involved.

I predict we come out of this on the losing end on getting Love but gaining either :

T. Thompson or G. Dieng
D. Waiters or Kevin Martin

Hopefully we can expand it and get even more when this is all said and done. I also don't see Taj or Mike starting the season with us. Mirotic & McDermott are the replacement killers.