Love #5: P. 88, Bulls 'moving on' from Love

[Polynice4Pippen]

You still wouldn't have made that trade though, it's obvious. You wouldn't have been ready to give Horace the starting PF role after an average rookie season. You're not even ready to give Mirotic the back up job and he's a superior prospect to what Horace was. And if you aren't willing to trade Taj for a 19 ppg SG in Martin along with Thompson and Waiters then I find it hard to believe you would've traded a 24-year-old PF averaging 12/13, leading the league in rebounding and a strong defender for an aging center who had been benched and was being phased out of New York.

If Mirotic gives up 8 & 5 in his first season as back up, like Grant did behind Oakley in his first season, i would be prepared to deal Gibson, like Krause did with Oakley.

Now, before Mirotic has played, for Kevin Martin in a straight swap?

No deal.

Again, we were asking Horace to be our starting PF. We're simply asking Mirotic to back up Pau Gasol. Mirotic doesn't have to be as good as Horace Grant, even though he was a much better prospect.

[kingkirk]

Again, we were asking Horace to be our starting PF. We're simply asking Mirotic to back up Pau Gasol. Mirotic doesn't have to be as good as Horace Grant, even though he was a much better prospect.

We had the confidence to give Grant more responsibility given what he had already showed he was capable of doing.

We knew what we had in Horace, to an extent.

Mirotic is nothing but potential at this point. He could be better than rookie Grant, or he could be worse. That's my point, we don't know.

Like i said, if Krause had moved Oakley before seeing Grant play in the pros, it would be a similar scenario. That didn't happen, though.

[DanTown8587]

No, Taj is not a top 15 player. But guys like Ibaka and Milsap were getting multiple votes for 3rd team and Taj is on their level for sure. Al Jefferson was 3rd team.

I look at it this way Dan. When guys like Manu are Taj's comp and most think he was robbed of beating out the winner who put up 19 PPG . Also, Dragic has been around for 6 years and last season was BY FAR his best.. Can he repeat it? In another system?

But, I agree that the Bulls would have to throw in a future 1st, likely.

The list of guys Taj isn't continues to grow. Milsap was an all-star last year who averaged 18-8 as a first option on Atlanta. Ibaka is a significantly better offensive player than Taj (three point range, quicker dribble) while being an even better shot blocker.

And even if you threw out Dragic's last year and took the two previous, they're very good numbers that are better than Taj ever touched.

The crux of your comparisons is that you underrate scoring and it's by far the most valuable skill in this league because so few guys possess any ability to do it consistently and efficiently. Dragic, Milsap, and Ibaka are all miles ahead of Taj at that stage of the game.

[johnnyvann840]

No, Taj is not a top 15 player. But guys like Ibaka and Milsap were getting multiple votes for 3rd team and Taj is on their level for sure. Al Jefferson was 3rd team.

I look at it this way Dan. When guys like Manu are Taj's comp and most think he was robbed of beating out the winner who put up 19 PPG . Also, Dragic has been around for 6 years and last season was BY FAR his best.. Can he repeat it? In another system?

But, I agree that the Bulls would have to throw in a future 1st, likely.

The list of guys Taj isn't continues to grow. Milsap was an all-star last year who averaged 18-8 as a first option on Atlanta. Ibaka is a significantly better offensive player than Taj (three point range, quicker dribble) while being an even better shot blocker.

And even if you threw out Dragic's last year and took the two previous, they're very good numbers that are better than Taj ever touched.

The crux of your comparisons is that you underrate scoring and it's by far the most valuable skill in this league because so few guys possess any ability to do it consistently and efficiently. Dragic, Milsap, and Ibaka are all miles ahead of Taj at that stage of the game.

you are forgetting that Taj is being called a top defensive player in the league.. Milsap and Jefferson suck ass on D. No team with Al Jeff is ever winning anything. And no team with Paul Milsap as the first option is either , Taj is a way better overall defender than Ibaka and they are pretty equal on O. And Ibaka takes less than a 3 per game

It's this mindset of scoring being the only thing that matters to some people and defense is just an afterthought. Sorry i dont see the game that way.. Taj was a higher impact player on the scoreboard for his team.

[Polynice4Pippen]

Again, we were asking Horace to be our starting PF. We're simply asking Mirotic to back up Pau Gasol. Mirotic doesn't have to be as good as Horace Grant, even though he was a much better prospect.

We had the confidence to give Grant more responsibility given what he had already showed he was capable of doing.

We knew what we had in Horace, to an extent.

Mirotic is nothing but potential at this point. He could be better than rookie Grant, or he could be worse. That's my point, we don't know.

Like i said, if Krause had moved Oakley before seeing Grant play in the pros, it would be a similar scenario. That didn't happen, though.

Eh we just disagree. If Gar/Pax weren't convinced of what Mirotic was capable of doing they wouldn't have given him $17 million and refused to trade him for top 10 picks. It was a much bigger leap of faith to believe Horace Grant could be a starting PF in 1988 than it is to think Nikola Mirotic can be a back up PF in 2014. Horace played 36 minutes a game in 1988-89. We'd only be asking Mirotic to play half that, and against back ups.

[johnnyvann840]

BTW-- is this a joke?

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/23 ... ll-Forward

Because I cannot stop laughing

[RedBulls23]

Team defense is more important IMO, than individual defense.

Bobcats were top 5 defense last year with Al Jefferson as their best player and starting center. I would take Big Al over Taj in a heart beat.

[Polynice4Pippen]

Taj is a way better overall defender than Ibaka and they are pretty equal on O.

Taj is hardly a "way" better defender than Ibaka, just ask the Spurs. However, Ibaka is a way better rebounder and better passer than Taj.

[johnnyvann840]

Team defense is more important IMO, than individual defense.

Bobcats were top 5 defense last year with Al Jefferson as their best player and starting center. I would take Big Al over Taj in a heart beat.

When Al was on the floor they were 3 pts worse on D and not near top five D.. It's like saying the Bulls were an elite top 5 D when Boozer was playing , they weren't.

[Polynice4Pippen]

BTW-- is this a joke?

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/23 ... ll-Forward

Because I cannot stop laughing

The whole world has been waiting to see Boozer get his chance to guard Kevin Durant one on one.

[DanTown8587]

No, Taj is not a top 15 player. But guys like Ibaka and Milsap were getting multiple votes for 3rd team and Taj is on their level for sure. Al Jefferson was 3rd team.

I look at it this way Dan. When guys like Manu are Taj's comp and most think he was robbed of beating out the winner who put up 19 PPG . Also, Dragic has been around for 6 years and last season was BY FAR his best.. Can he repeat it? In another system?

But, I agree that the Bulls would have to throw in a future 1st, likely.

The list of guys Taj isn't continues to grow. Milsap was an all-star last year who averaged 18-8 as a first option on Atlanta. Ibaka is a significantly better offensive player than Taj (three point range, quicker dribble) while being an even better shot blocker.

And even if you threw out Dragic's last year and took the two previous, they're very good numbers that are better than Taj ever touched.

The crux of your comparisons is that you underrate scoring and it's by far the most valuable skill in this league because so few guys possess any ability to do it consistently and efficiently. Dragic, Milsap, and Ibaka are all miles ahead of Taj at that stage of the game.

you are forgetting that Taj is being called a top defensive player in the league.. Milsap and Jefferson suck ass on D. No team with Al Jeff is ever winning anything. And no team with Paul Milsap as the first option is either , Taj is a way better overall defender than Ibaka and they are pretty equal on O. And Ibaka takes less than a 3 per game

It's this mindset of scoring being the only thing that matters to some people and defense is just an afterthought. Sorry i dont see the game that way.. Taj was a higher impact player on the scoreboard for his team.

Where did I forget defense? Ibaka is on Taj's level, Dragic is a fairly good defender and Milsap is passable. Defense is good and all but Taj isn't a limiting defender (just like Jo isn't) in that he actually stops teams from running what they run. Sure he rotates and doesn't give up layups like Boozer, but he's not some defensive force that teams say "ok, tonight we can't run this set because Taj Gibson is on the floor" ala prime Dwight and attacking the rim. THOSE defenders are the defenders that impact the game as much as scorers do. Guys like Gibson who just rotate and make the right play, they're still susceptible to being beat by good offense.

Taj is a very good defender and especially for his position but this is a scoring league, always has been and you're comparing Taj (a very average scorer at best) to an elite scorer (Dragic) and two guys who are very good (Milsap as a first option and Ibaka as a third). And none of the guys you listed are bad defenders so yes, I question the comparison to each of them. If you were to offer Taj for any of those guys, it's laughable.

[johnnyvann840]

Taj is a way better overall defender than Ibaka and they are pretty equal on O.

Taj is hardly a "way" better defender than Ibaka, just ask the Spurs. However, Ibaka is a way better rebounder and better passer than Taj.

Ibaka averages 1 APG total.. and his reb is not much different than Taj's.. where is this coming from?

[pduh01]

BTW-- is this a joke?

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/23 ... ll-Forward

Because I cannot stop laughing

I fall off my chair hurting myself laughing so hard on that one

[johnnyvann840]

Taj isn't a limiting defender (just like Jo isn't) in that he actually stops teams from running what they run..

I really hope you are kidding/ Now that is laughable

[RedBulls23]

Team defense is more important IMO, than individual defense.

Bobcats were top 5 defense last year with Al Jefferson as their best player and starting center. I would take Big Al over Taj in a heart beat.

When Al was on the floor they were 3 pts worse on D and not near top five D.. It's like saying the Bulls were an elite top 5 D when Boozer was playing , they weren't.

Check your stats, because how worse the Cats/Hornets were was negligible (-0.6).

http://www.82games.com/1314/13CHA17.HTM

[Polynice4Pippen]

Taj is a way better overall defender than Ibaka and they are pretty equal on O.

Taj is hardly a "way" better defender than Ibaka, just ask the Spurs. However, Ibaka is a way better rebounder and better passer than Taj.

Ibaka averages 1 APG total.. and his reb is not much different than Taj's.. where is this coming from?

Because Taj also averages almost half a turnover more than Serge in 5 less minutes of play. And Serge's 0.7 apg in the past 2 postseasons actually doubles Taj's 0.4 and 0.3 apg the past 2 postseasons.

[johnnyvann840]

Team defense is more important IMO, than individual defense.

Bobcats were top 5 defense last year with Al Jefferson as their best player and starting center. I would take Big Al over Taj in a heart beat.

When Al was on the floor they were 3 pts worse on D and not near top five D.. It's like saying the Bulls were an elite top 5 D when Boozer was playing , they weren't.

Check your stats, because how worse the Cats/Hornets were was negligible (-0.6).

http://www.82games.com/1314/13CHA17.HTM

You're right. The stat is slightly positive but not close Taj impact level and Taj has been doing for three years now. Its no fluke his impact numbers on pt diff.

I'm just not an Al Jeff fan never have been.. except once I playd fantasy basketball a long time ago and he was on my team. I loved him then. Then I watched him play D.

[DanTown8587]

Taj isn't a limiting defender (just like Jo isn't) in that he actually stops teams from running what they run..

I really hope you are kidding/ Now that is laughable

What sets do teams not run because Taj is on the floor? What PF doesn't get there's because Taj is on the floor? THAT's a valuable defender, someone who actually stops others from scoring or doing what they want. That's not Taj's game. His game (and same with Noah) is that for a big man, he doesn't really have a weakness. He can defend 1-1, P&R, 20 feet from the rim, help side, etc. But he's not some guy who stops other sets.

[TheSuzerain]

Ibaka is a superior defensive anchor and a much more useful offensive player.

[dumbell78]

Taj is a way better overall defender than Ibaka and they are pretty equal on O.

Taj is hardly a "way" better defender than Ibaka, just ask the Spurs. However, Ibaka is a way better rebounder and better passer than Taj.

Honestly think Taj is a better individual and team defender. Ibaka will literally go for every shot block and compromise team defense. SAS exposed that went they inserted Diaw in the starting lineup. I am willing to bet you Taj does a better job on Diaw if he was inserted into that scenario. Ibaka is overrated as a defensive stopper IMO.

Per 36 Ibaka give you a grand total of 1 rebound more that Taj, and thats with Taj playing with rebound gobblers like Noah and Boozer. How many rebounds does Taj get if had to play with Perkins or Collison?

Offensively Ibaka has the clear edge I will give him that, even though he only a jump shooter and has absolutely no post game.