RealGM Top 100 List #11

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #11 Runoff: Kobe vs KG 

Post#581 » by colts18 » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:30 pm

DQuinn1575 wrote:

I didn't say Pippen didn't care - I said he wasn't the guy to win in the clutch-

migraine game
Kukoc shot where he sat on the bench

Pippen never took over the offense to win the game.

Where is the evidence for Kobe being a clutch player?

All evidence points to the fact that Kobe was very anti-clutch. His numbers fell off dramatically in the playoffs when he was facing good defenses. His track record in elimination games is awful. His finals numbers are down compared to his regular season numbers. His 4th quarter numbers in the finals are pathetic. His game 7 performances are awful. No other modern star has had a 6-24 game 7 or a 15 PPG, 41 TS% finals performance.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #11 Runoff: Kobe vs KG 

Post#582 » by Purch » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:32 pm

therealbig3 wrote:
Purch wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:And anyway, qualitative analysis of Garnett from his supporters will obviously be about how his defense is GOAT-level, because of his mobility, his length, his leadership, his IQ, and his defensive rebounding.

It'll also be about how his offense has everything except for elite isolation scoring...which he was still pretty good at. It'll be about how his merely "good" isolation scoring becomes a lot less important when he starts scaling to better teams, and how his other skills become magnified in that case...which makes a great argument for why he might be the most portable superstar ever.

But then of course, the people arguing against Garnett are going to talk about how his lack of elite isolation scoring is a HUGE deal. They'll also say that they don't believe that Garnett is as great of a defender as people say.

Gee, I wonder how people are supposed to respond to that when you've completely disallowed all forms of +/- (with/without, on/off, RAPM). How are people supposed to offer evidence for why they are so high on Garnett's defense? I guess we have to use the bpg+spg+team defense analysis. How are people supposed to offer evidence that Garnett's offensive impact goes well beyond simply his scoring ability, and that he could very easily be having the same positive effect on offense as many other players, despite his lack of scoring efficiency? I guess we have to use the ppg+TS% analysis.

Yeah, because that's not stupid or anything.


Show us the footage and break it down. I've seen it. Show us where this huge impact is coming from


Yeah, I've seen it too. I've talked about it a lot in the top 100 thread. Others have too. You just choose to ignore it, and continue with the same ranting.

I'm tired of it.


Right, just like you choose to marginalize every single one of KG's shortcomings and playoff drops in this thread.

From the 99% of people who have complained about I'm sure we're all sick of it :lol:

Just because you're a vocal minority doesn't mean you can try to change the history of whats occurred the past 6 threads
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #11 Runoff: Kobe vs KG 

Post#583 » by mtron929 » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:33 pm

therealbig3 wrote:And anyway, qualitative analysis of Garnett from his supporters will obviously be about how his defense is GOAT-level, because of his mobility, his length, his leadership, his IQ, and his defensive rebounding.

It'll also be about how his offense has everything except for elite isolation scoring...which he was still pretty good at. It'll be about how his merely "good" isolation scoring becomes a lot less important when he starts scaling to better teams, and how his other skills become magnified in that case...which makes a great argument for why he might be the most portable superstar ever.

But then of course, the people arguing against Garnett are going to talk about how his lack of elite isolation scoring is a HUGE deal. They'll also say that they don't believe that Garnett is as great of a defender as people say.

Gee, I wonder how people are supposed to respond to that when you've completely disallowed all forms of +/- (with/without, on/off, RAPM). How are people supposed to offer evidence for why they are so high on Garnett's defense? I guess we have to use the bpg+spg+team defense analysis. How are people supposed to offer evidence that Garnett's offensive impact goes well beyond simply his scoring ability, and that he could very easily be having the same positive effect on offense as many other players, despite his lack of scoring efficiency? I guess we have to use the ppg+TS% analysis.

Yeah, because that's not stupid or anything.


So according to your reasons for propping up KG, maybe you should provide a reason on why he should not be top 3 all time player? Because beyond lack of elite isolation scoring, he has everything (which is not a huge deal as you imply), right?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #11 Runoff: Kobe vs KG 

Post#584 » by therealbig3 » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:34 pm

MistyMountain20 wrote:God forbid we talk about individual defense, but has Garnett ever shut down a player in the Playoffs? Honest question, he's gone up against the likes of Webber, Duncan and Dirk. Does he have a signature moment of slowing down a player? I'd assume if he was the GOAT on defense that would exist?


99 Duncan: 16/9 per 36, 52% TS, 112 ORating
00 Wallace: 12/5 per 36, 57% TS, 124 ORating
01 Duncan: 21/12 per 36, 51% TS, 104 ORating
02 Nowitzki: 28/13 per 36, 69% TS, 133 ORating
04 Nene: 11/7 per 36, 47% TS, 95 ORating
04 Webber: 17/7 per 36, 49% TS, 95 ORating
04 Malone: 11/9 per 36, 48% TS, 98 ORating

Outside of 02 Nowitzki, Garnett's matchup was either efficient on very low volume (99 Duncan and 00 Wallace), or they were just really inefficient (01 Duncan, 04 Nene, 04 Webber, 04 Malone).

And with regards to 02...Garnett wasn't even defending Dirk.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #11 Runoff: Kobe vs KG 

Post#585 » by MistyMountain20 » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:34 pm

colts18 wrote:
DQuinn1575 wrote:

I didn't say Pippen didn't care - I said he wasn't the guy to win in the clutch-

migraine game
Kukoc shot where he sat on the bench

Pippen never took over the offense to win the game.

Where is the evidence for Kobe being a clutch player?

All evidence points to the fact that Kobe was very anti-clutch. His numbers fell off dramatically in the playoffs when he was facing good defenses. His track record in elimination games is awful. His 4th quarter numbers in the finals are pathetic. His game 7 performances are awful. No other modern star has had a 6-24 game 7.

Duncan had an awful close our game against the Pistons if I'm not mistaken. For the matter of that game, relative to how awful everyone was in that game, context (like in literally anything else) is needed.

Many players numbers fall of against better defense - there's nothing wrong with that. Jordan's tapered off against teams like the Knicks and the Sonics.

Anti-clutch is a good sign that you have a bias against the player, that's an extreme point of view. I hope you're not on the voting panel.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #11 Runoff: Kobe vs KG 

Post#586 » by penbeast0 » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:35 pm

Question about Sheed; do you really think he is better than Shawn Marion who is sort of a marginal top 100 guy? If so, why?>

I think that's a lot closer comparison than comparing him to Kevin Garnett, Karl Malone, or the other true superstars being considered at this point in time.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #11 Runoff: Kobe vs KG 

Post#587 » by MistyMountain20 » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:37 pm

therealbig3 wrote:
MistyMountain20 wrote:God forbid we talk about individual defense, but has Garnett ever shut down a player in the Playoffs? Honest question, he's gone up against the likes of Webber, Duncan and Dirk. Does he have a signature moment of slowing down a player? I'd assume if he was the GOAT on defense that would exist?


99 Duncan: 16/9 per 36, 52% TS, 112 ORating
00 Wallace: 12/5 per 36, 57% TS, 124 ORating
01 Duncan: 21/12 per 36, 51% TS, 104 ORating
02 Nowitzki: 28/13 per 36, 69% TS, 133 ORating
04 Nene: 11/7 per 36, 47% TS, 95 ORating
04 Webber: 17/7 per 36, 49% TS, 95 ORating
04 Malone: 11/9 per 36, 48% TS, 98 ORating

Outside of 02 Nowitzki, Garnett's matchup was either efficient on very low volume (99 Duncan and 00 Wallace), or they were just really inefficient (01 Duncan, 04 Nene, 04 Webber, 04 Malone).

And with regards to 02...Garnett wasn't even defending Dirk.

Thanks. Do you have league averages there? How did Garnett do against those opponents.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #11 Runoff: Kobe vs KG 

Post#588 » by ThaRegul8r » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:37 pm

Purch wrote:
ThaRegul8r wrote:
Purch wrote:Revisonist History is a great thing


I have no dog in this hunt, but Duncan was a direct contemporary of Garnett, which naturally invites comparisons. You've always had the "put Garnett in San Antonio with Popovich and see how many titles he'd win" contingent.

Re: Bird Evidently you've forgotten (or weren't watching) when Garnett was doing the annual 20-10-5 thing and broke Bird's record. He was naturally being compared to Bird then, and I remember several people commenting on the unwritten rule that you can only compare a white guy to a white guy and a black guy to a black guy.

As far as Magic, his name came up when people were talking about versatility. Where does Garnett rank among the most versatile players ever?

This is the kind of stuff you'd need to be there to know. You can't find it on basketball-reference after the fact if you weren't.


Unfortunatly you're off basis here. I was talking about specifically in this thread. Great players have naturally been compared to other greats as they continue to carve out their legacy


I responded to the following statements:

"KG was getting favorable comparisons to guys like Duncan, Magic, and Bird WITHOUT the use of RAPM."

"Revisonist [sic] History is a great thing."

I specifically keep track of contemporary observation and opinion during the time players actually play, not after the fact. Therefore my personal opinion of KG whatever it may be is irrelevant, as it is an objective fact that while Garnett was actually in his prime, he was drawing comparisons to Duncan, Magic and Bird, and no one was using RAPM. That isn't arguable, as it actually happened.

Upon examination, your response doesn't even add up, because if you were "talking about specifically in this thread," then what, pray tell, were you referring to when you said "Revisionist history is a great thing"?
I remember your posts from the RPOY project, you consistently brought it. Please continue to do so, sir. This board needs guys like you to counteract ... worthless posters


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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #11 Runoff: Kobe vs KG 

Post#589 » by colts18 » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:38 pm

MistyMountain20 wrote:
Thanks. Do you have league averages there? How did Garnett do against those opponents.

I think Drza has a post on how Duncan and Sheed did vs Garnett compared to their RS averages. Hopefully Drza can post it again.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #11 Runoff: Kobe vs KG 

Post#590 » by magicmerl » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:39 pm

So, the runoff is between Kobe and Garnett. Sorry I haven't been able to participate in this thread as much as the others (life happened over the weekend).

Narrative
For me, Kobe was an excellent defender earlier in his career, but a bit of a selfish ballhog, and seems more intent on individual career scoring goals than team success his whole career. His 'scoring explosion' once shaq left came at the expense of team wins, and he also seemed to give up on playing all game long at this point. I was surprised that he was able to win a couple more championships (although Gasol led the team in win shares both years they won, so he arguably wasn't the best player on the team in ANY of his championships, but maybe that's the hater in me saying that).

Garnett also has his flaws. many see him as being on a par or better than Duncan, which is only kinda true. As some have said, the all-worldly perimeter defense that KG anchors is just much less valuable than the rim protecting defense that Duncan plays. I did an analysis a while back on scoring efficiency by shot location, and found that KG shot BETTER than Duncan from EVERYWHERE on the floor, but Duncan had a higher efg% because he took more of his shots close to the rim. So while KG may very well have been more physically talented and skilled than Duncan as a player, Duncan's brain let him actually have more impact on the court. That said, I don't hold not being as good as Duncan against KG (or at least, I would if this was a comparison between Duncan and KG, but it's not).

Once you get down to it, 'not quite as good as Duncan' is still pretty damn good.

Stats
A huge part of Kobe's case rests on his longevity. But KG has even more longevity, since he has played over than 3000 minutes more, and thus has a corresponding win shares edge (even if their WS/48 is similar). Kobe has of course played a lot more playoff minutes than KG, and this is where we need to factor in team quality. How much should KG be penalised for not having a good enough team to make deep playoff runs? Some certainly (since his cap eating contract necessarily precluded top level talent being acquired) but the abysmal management in Minnesota was more to blame IMO.

Their ORtg is on a par, while KG's DRtg blows Kobe out of the water. When you extend that to the smaller samle sized playoffs, the numbers stay mostly the same, although KG suffers an ORtg dropoff equivalent to how Kobe plays Defense all the time.

My vote is for KG.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #11 Runoff: Kobe vs KG 

Post#591 » by Purch » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:40 pm

ThaRegul8r wrote:
Purch wrote:
ThaRegul8r wrote:
I have no dog in this hunt, but Duncan was a direct contemporary of Garnett, which naturally invites comparisons. You've always had the "put Garnett in San Antonio with Popovich and see how many titles he'd win" contingent.

Re: Bird Evidently you've forgotten (or weren't watching) when Garnett was doing the annual 20-10-5 thing and broke Bird's record. He was naturally being compared to Bird then, and I remember several people commenting on the unwritten rule that you can only compare a white guy to a white guy and a black guy to a black guy.

As far as Magic, his name came up when people were talking about versatility. Where does Garnett rank among the most versatile players ever?

This is the kind of stuff you'd need to be there to know. You can't find it on basketball-reference after the fact if you weren't.


Unfortunatly you're off basis here. I was talking about specifically in this thread. Great players have naturally been compared to other greats as they continue to carve out their legacy


I responded to the following statements:

"KG was getting favorable comparisons to guys like Duncan, Magic, and Bird WITHOUT the use of RAPM."

"Revisonist [sic] History is a great thing."

I specifically keep track of contemporary observation and opinion during the time players actually play, not after the fact. Therefore my personal opinion of KG whatever it may be is irrelevant, as it is an objective fact that while Garnett was actually in his prime, he was drawing comparisons to Duncan, Magic and Bird, and no one was using RAPM. That isn't arguable, as it actually happened.

Upon examination, your response doesn't even add up, because if you were "talking about specifically in this thread," then what, pray tell, were you referring to when you said "Revisionist history is a great thing"?


Revisonist history of the past 6 threads of this project. You're thinking of something completly different

Also , you're not the only one who keeps track of what they hear over the years, I'm not sure why you're mentioning it
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #11 Runoff: Kobe vs KG 

Post#592 » by therealbig3 » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:41 pm

mtron929 wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:And anyway, qualitative analysis of Garnett from his supporters will obviously be about how his defense is GOAT-level, because of his mobility, his length, his leadership, his IQ, and his defensive rebounding.

It'll also be about how his offense has everything except for elite isolation scoring...which he was still pretty good at. It'll be about how his merely "good" isolation scoring becomes a lot less important when he starts scaling to better teams, and how his other skills become magnified in that case...which makes a great argument for why he might be the most portable superstar ever.

But then of course, the people arguing against Garnett are going to talk about how his lack of elite isolation scoring is a HUGE deal. They'll also say that they don't believe that Garnett is as great of a defender as people say.

Gee, I wonder how people are supposed to respond to that when you've completely disallowed all forms of +/- (with/without, on/off, RAPM). How are people supposed to offer evidence for why they are so high on Garnett's defense? I guess we have to use the bpg+spg+team defense analysis. How are people supposed to offer evidence that Garnett's offensive impact goes well beyond simply his scoring ability, and that he could very easily be having the same positive effect on offense as many other players, despite his lack of scoring efficiency? I guess we have to use the ppg+TS% analysis.

Yeah, because that's not stupid or anything.


So according to your reasons for propping up KG, maybe you should provide a reason on why he should not be top 3 all time player? Because beyond lack of elite isolation scoring, he has everything (which is not a huge deal as you imply), right?


Well, I've got him #5, other people have him #4.

I've got Jordan, Kareem, Shaq, and Hakeem over him. Because Jordan's argument is basically what people tried to argue for Kobe: his defense was really good for a wing, and his offense was GOAT-level. That's a better player than Garnett imo. Kareem, Shaq, and Hakeem, because their ISO scoring was that much better than Garnett, and at least with Hakeem, he more or less also gave you a lot of what Garnett did outside of scoring. Shaq as well, although his defense was a concern. Kareem as well, although his defense was also a concern. But Shaq and Kareem were both still (imo) solid positives on defense, and were two of the only big men to be on the short list of the GOAT offensive players.

After that though, the guys whose ISO scoring is THAT good aren't even close to his level defensively (Dirk, Barkley), and the guys that are on his level defensively, their ISO scoring isn't THAT good (Duncan, Robinson). With regards to Magic and Bird, I've got Garnett over them based on longevity. With regards to Wilt, I think he had very questionable impact for most of his career, so that hurts his longevity too. With regards to Russell, I can see him over Garnett, and I'm considering moving him up again, because I think I underrated him in the first place. But my original argument was that Garnett was close enough defensively and was better offensively.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #11 Runoff: Kobe vs KG 

Post#593 » by colts18 » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:42 pm

In case anyone missed it. Elgee posted an awesome post on how star players did in their primes vs good and bad defenses. Conclusion: Shaq, Dirk, and Miller do awesome vs great defenses. Malone, Kobe, and Robinson drop off the most when facing good defenses. KG and Duncan perform similarly and drop off around the same

Based on some discussion in the top 100 project, I took a deeper look at performances against "good" and "bad" defenses. While I sliced the data in more than just this way, here we will call "good" defenses as teams with a Defensive Rating of 103 or lower, and "bad" as teams at 107 or higher. (As of now) 12 players were examined, all in "prime" seasons.

1. "Bottom-Feeders"

Well, not quite bottom-feeders per se, but the first thing I looked at was the correlation between Game Score (simple linear weighting of box score inputs) and Offensive Box Score Expected Value (OBEV) which uses the expected value of all box offensive box score values. In lay terms, these are two distillations of the classic box score, the first will reward more volume scoring, the second will reward more efficient offensive "results" (including turnovers).

A higher correlation coefficient between opposing defenses and these composite metrics suggests that a player performs better as the defense becomes easier. This doesn't make someone a bottom-feeder necessarily -- his performance could be quite strong against good defenses to begin with -- but it does represent a relationship between a player's box score stats and the quality of the opposing D. A low coefficient means the player is "flat" or defensively agnostic, and produces similarly against either good or bad defenses.

    Regular Season correlation; Game Score and Opposing Defenses
    Garnett 99-08 0.04
    Duncan 99-08 0.05
    Shaq 96-05 0.05
    Dirk 01-11 0.06
    Olajuwon 86-96 0.13
    K Malone 88-98 0.13
    Robinson 90-98 0.14
    LeBron 08-14 0.14
    Jordan 87-98 0.15
    Kobe 01-10 0.16
    Miller 90-00 0.19

Some of that could be the defensive component of the box score that Game Score includes that was not removed for this study. What happens looking at the same regular season data from the vantage point of OBEV?

    Regular Season correlation; OBEV and Opposing Defenses
    Dirk 01-11 0.03
    LeBron 08-14 0.10
    Shaq 96-05 0.10
    Miller 90-00 0.12
    Garnett 99-08 0.13
    K Malone 88-98 0.14
    Duncan 99-08 0.15
    Olajuwon 86-96 0.17
    Jordan 87-98 0.17
    Robinson 90-98 0.18
    Kobe 01-10 0.23

The players most likely to improve against bad defenses: Kobe Bryant. Robinson, Jordan and Karl Malone show movement on both lists. Dirk looks very flat -- it doesn't matter what the defense is against him. (We'll look at actual level of production in a moment.) What happens in the PS?

    Post Season correlation; Game Score and Opposing Defenses
    Duncan 99-08 -0.01
    Garnett 99-08 0.01
    Shaq 96-05 0.03
    Olajuwon 86-96 0.07
    Dirk 01-11 0.09
    Miller 90-00 0.14
    K Malone 88-98 0.16
    LeBron 08-14 0.19
    Robinson 90-98 0.24
    Jordan 87-98 0.25
    Kobe 01-10 0.27

    Post Season correlation; OBEV and Opposing Defenses
    Shaq 96-05 0.01
    Duncan 99-08 0.06
    Dirk 01-11 0.09
    Garnett 99-08 0.11
    Miller 90-00 0.16
    K Malone 88-98 0.17
    Olajuwon 86-96 0.17
    Jordan 87-98 0.20
    LeBron 08-14 0.23
    Robinson 90-98 0.24
    Kobe 01-10 0.30

The numbers are more pronounced in the PS, where Kobe (surprisingly) shows a more severe trend than even David Robinson (saddled with the reputation of falling off against good defenses). We'll see what exactly this looks like in a moment when we compare the actual numbers. Not far behind, LeBron and Jordan also show a moderate trend. Duncan and Garnett are relatively flat, and Shaq and Dirk essentially don't really seem to care who is on the other side of the court. CAUTION: Before running with a narrative based on this data, let's look at the actual results to gain a more refined perspective of what happens against good and bad defenses.

2. Regular Season: Good vs. Bad Defenses

For this and the remaining sections I used a 107/103 split for good/bad defenses. This is to try and normalize the data as much as possible across different environment, but it also leaves players with smallish samples at times because they either played really good or really easy defenses. That will be noted when applicable.

How did these same 12 guys fare against 107/103s?

Image

You can see how the core elements of the data reflect the correlations from section 1. Kobe, Robinson, Jordan and Karl Malone have fairly large discrepancies between their "good"defense and "bad" defense metrics. While Olajuwon looks completely flat here, note he only played 32 games (!) against sub-103 defenses in these 11 years. Compare this to Garnett, who played more games against good defenses in this period (like Shaq) and a total of 231 games against sub-103 defenses.

As usual, metrics aren't kind to Kobe. He has the lowest TS% in the RS among this group against sub-103's, the second-lowest GmSc and the lowest OBEV. David Robinson -- the inspiration of this study -- does drop off, but he does not look like an outlier in this regard. Finally, it's poetic to see Duncan and Garnett with almost identical pts/36 and TS% numbers against the sub-103's, although Garnett is above Duncan in GmSc and OBEV. The largest drop off in assists from good to bad defense belongs to...Michael Jordan.

3. Post Season: Good vs. Bad Defenses

What happens in the playoffs?

Image

Right off the bat, note that most of these players no longer play bad defenses in the PS. This is perhaps one of the oldest adages in basketball, and this case, it's very, very true. It is rare to encounter bad defenses in the PS, and even rarer to encounter them in the critical 3rd and 4th rounds of the PS where teams are better. Thus, emphasis in this section will be on the sub-103 performance alone.

Dirk looks fantastic: 21/36 and 57% TS, with 16 GmSc and 4.3 OBEV. The best and worst of the group against sub-103s:

    Best vs sub-103 defenses, PS
    OBEV: LeBron +4.7
    GmSc: Jordan 19.5
    Pts/36: Jordan 27.0
    TS%: Miller 58.9%

    Worst vs sub-103 defenses, PS
    OBEV: Garnett +1.6
    GmSc: Jordan 13.9
    Pts/36: Robinson 18.2
    TS%: Malone 50.7%

All sorts of common beliefs being supported there. First, we see evidence for Miller upholding his impressive postseason reputation as well as his performance against quality defenses. LeBron looks amazing. Garnett has an offensive dip in the PS, Robinson no longer looks very good in the box score, and Karl Malone's impressive scoring efficiency disappears. It should be noted though that a good chunk of this is from FT shooting. In these 36 games, Malone's FT% goes from ~ 74% in the RS to 66.5%. At 7.4 FTA per 36 (down from 9.1 in the RS). 74% FT shooting would put his TS% at 52% and pts/36 at 22.3.

However, look what happens when you compare these numbers to the other players in the group:

Duncan and Garnett have nearly identical volume against good defenses, Duncan trumps him with a 2.4% TS% advantage that, along with a better foul-draw, gains him 1.3 points of value in OBEV. Kobe and Jordan are both around 53% against elite defenses -- but note Kobe played in such a hard defensive environment that his average sub-103 defense is 2 full points better than Jordan's. Nonetheless, Jordan maintains a huge volume advantage. Robinson and Olajuwon...the thing to note there is that neither played many games against hard defenses!

4. Regular Season: Good vs. Bad Defenses

What changed in the PS? The table below reflects the differences between the RS and PS performances against plus-107's and sub-103's. Note that for plus-107's, Shaq, Miller, Kobe, Garnett and Duncan all play under 20 PS games, and for sub-103's Hakeem and Robinson play under 20 PS games.

Image

Karl Malone! Malone, consistent with his well-established overall performance drop in the PS, has a large and comparable drop off against both quality of defenses in the PS. (Whether that's because of flaws in Malone, Utah, or both cannot be determined just from this data.) Compare that to Garnett, who actually sees a relatively small PS drop off against good defenses.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, again...Reggie Miller. The scoring takes a large bump and the efficiency. Olajuwon's improvement is against plus-107's mainly. Shaq has a small drop off, although notice he plays harder sub-103's. David Robinson completely falls off against the easy defenses. Kobe, in 76 games sees his scoring go down with a comparable hold in efficiency, but like Shaq, he played harder sub-103's in the PS.

5. Conclusion

This data reinforces other slices of the box score that show players performance declining in the PS. Among these 11 stars, there's an average playoff drop of about 0.6 pts/36 and 1% in TS. GmSc goes down by 0.8 pts (interestingly, OBEV is almost the same). Of course, defenses are slightly harder in the PS as well.

As far as "good"/"bad" defensive split go, it's also clear that it is, in general, harder to perform well against better defenses. In the RS sample, the group had the following averages:

    vs. 107+: 25 pts/36 | 59.% TS | 20.7 GmSC | +5.0 OBEV
    vs. 103-: 23.2 pts/36 | 55.5% TS | 17.9 GmSc | +3.4 OBEV

The average defense faced was over 8.5 points better in DRtg in the sub-103 group. All told, this information is simply a report of the box score, and the key box score metrics. It must be noted that this does not entirely map to offensive goodness for a number of reasons -- team context, role and creation are completely ignored.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #11 Runoff: Kobe vs KG 

Post#594 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:45 pm

MistyMountain20 wrote:God forbid we talk about individual defense, but has Garnett ever shut down a player in the Playoffs? Honest question, he's gone up against the likes of Webber, Duncan and Dirk. Does he have a signature moment of slowing down a player? I'd assume if he was the GOAT on defense that would exist?


It's really annoying seeing people jump in with such cocky confidence that things have never been discussed, and I feel like it just keeps happening.

Go read drza's post here:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1334350&p=40580241#p40580241

People keep alleging that the KG people are klling the project by focusing on 1 stat, and these same people have typically never in their life done as thorough a scouting job as what drza did here. It's pretty absurd. People just seem to have the assumption that people sporting opinions this unconventional must have very little to back them up, and they continue to think this even after they've seen otherwise.

I can't even call this cognitive dissonance, this is akin to literally not to the old joke of not being able to understand a Chinese man unless his English is broken.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #11 Runoff: Kobe vs KG 

Post#595 » by Purch » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:45 pm

^ When you already have bad effiency for an elite big, and you drop off even more.. What exactly does that tell you?

O yea,it tells you that KG's "unseen offensive impact" makes up for it.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #11 Runoff: Kobe vs KG 

Post#596 » by MistyMountain20 » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:46 pm

magicmerl wrote:So, the runoff is between Kobe and Garnett. Sorry I haven't been able to participate in this thread as much as the others (life happened over the weekend).

Narrative
For me, Kobe was an excellent defender earlier in his career, but a bit of a selfish ballhog, and seems more intent on individual career scoring goals than team success his whole career. His 'scoring explosion' once shaq left came at the expense of team wins, and he also seemed to give up on playing all game long at this point. I was surprised that he was able to win a couple more championships (although Gasol led the team in win shares both years they won, so he arguably wasn't the best player on the team in ANY of his championships, but maybe that's the hater in me saying that).

Garnett also has his flaws. many see him as being on a par or better than Duncan, which is only kinda true. As some have said, the all-worldly perimeter defense that KG anchors is just much less valuable than the rim protecting defense that Duncan plays. I did an analysis a while back on scoring efficiency by shot location, and found that KG shot BETTER than Duncan from EVERYWHERE on the floor, but Duncan had a higher efg% because he took more of his shots close to the rim. So while KG may very well have been more physically talented and skilled than Duncan as a player, Duncan's brain let him actually have more impact on the court. That said, I don't hold not being as good as Duncan against KG (or at least, I would if this was a comparison between Duncan and KG, but it's not).

Once you get down to it, 'not quite as good as Duncan' is still pretty damn good.

Stats
A huge part of Kobe's case rests on his longevity. But KG has even more longevity, since he has played over than 3000 minutes more, and thus has a corresponding win shares edge (even if their WS/48 is similar). Kobe has of course played a lot more playoff minutes than KG, and this is where we need to factor in team quality. How much should KG be penalised for not having a good enough team to make deep playoff runs? Some certainly (since his cap eating contract necessarily precluded top level talent being acquired) but the abysmal management in Minnesota was more to blame IMO.

Their ORtg is on a par, while KG's DRtg blows Kobe out of the water. When you extend that to the smaller samle sized playoffs, the numbers stay mostly the same, although KG suffers an ORtg dropoff equivalent to how Kobe plays Defense all the time.

My vote is for KG.

Can you expand on this more. I've heard this before and for me it's a preposterous idea that Bryant's actually lessened the success of the 05-06, 06-07 Lakers. On the other issue, not playing all game long? Pretty sure Kobe was at the top of the NBA leader boards. Weird critique.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #11 Runoff: Kobe vs KG 

Post#597 » by MistyMountain20 » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:52 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
MistyMountain20 wrote:God forbid we talk about individual defense, but has Garnett ever shut down a player in the Playoffs? Honest question, he's gone up against the likes of Webber, Duncan and Dirk. Does he have a signature moment of slowing down a player? I'd assume if he was the GOAT on defense that would exist?


It's really annoying seeing people jump in with such cocky confidence that things have never been discussed, and I feel like it just keeps happening.

Go read drza's post here:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1334350&p=40580241#p40580241

People keep alleging that the KG people are klling the project by focusing on 1 stat, and these same people have typically never in their life done as thorough a scouting job as what drza did here. It's pretty absurd. People just seem to have the assumption that people sporting opinions this unconventional must have very little to back them up, and they continue to think this even after they've seen otherwise.

I can't even call this cognitive dissonance, this is akin to literally not to the old joke of not being able to understand a Chinese man unless his English is broken.

And I can do without your annoying tone. What a coincidence, I guys we both could do without each other. This thread is 30 pages long and the conversation has been dominated by RAPM. I missed where the post was and instead of kindly pointing towards it you had to focus on my "cocky" confidence. Maybe you should be a tad more tolerant and not jump to labeling?

Edit - wait, the thread you cited was linked towards the 6th ranked player, not this thread? Seriously, that explains your tone? Maybe he posted it in this thread, but you should relax, it's basketball.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #11 Runoff: Kobe vs KG 

Post#598 » by The Infamous1 » Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:02 pm

Kobe has 4 playoff years (01,08,09,10) better than KG's best.

From

08-10 30/5/5 57%TS 11-1 Record/3 Finals/2 Championships.

semi-sentient wrote:Probably not a bad idea to add in who the Lakers opponents were the past few years:

2007-08

- Nuggets (50-32, #11 oRtg, #10 dRtg, #11 SRS)
- Jazz (54-28, #1 oRtg, #12 dRtg, #3 SRS)
- Spurs (56-26, #15 oRtg, #3 dRtg, #7 SRS)
- Celtics (66-16, #10 oRtg, #1 dRtg, #1 SRS)

2008-09

- Jazz (48-34, #8 oRtg, #10 dRtg, #9 SRS)
- Rockets (53-29, #14 oRtg, #4 dRtg, #6 SRS)
- Nuggets (54-28, #7 oRtg, #8 dRtg, #8 SRS)
- Magic (59-23, #11 oRtg, #1 dRtg, #4 SRS)

2009-10

- Thunder (50-32, #12 oRtg, #9 dRtg, #9 SRS)
- Jazz (53-29, #8 oRtg, #10 dRtg, #3 SRS)
- Suns (54-28, #1 oRtg, #23 dRtg, #6 SRS)
- Celtics (50-32, #15 oRtg, #5 dRtg, #10 SRS)


Not a bad run all things considered. Kind of incredible that the Lakers have only faced 1 team that didn't break 50 wins and didn't have a top 10 SRS. They also went up against some tough defensive teams (5 top 5), although not quite as tough as the '00-'02 Lakers.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #11 Runoff: Kobe vs KG 

Post#599 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:04 pm

Purch wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:
Purch wrote:Show us the footage and break it down. I've seen it. Show us where this huge impact is coming from


Yeah, I've seen it too. I've talked about it a lot in the top 100 thread. Others have too. You just choose to ignore it, and continue with the same ranting.

I'm tired of it.


Right, just like you choose to marginalize every single one of KG's shortcomings and playoff drops in this thread.

From the 99% of people who have complained about I'm sure we're all sick of it :lol:

Just because you're a vocal minority doesn't mean you can try to change the history of whats occurred the past 6 threads


Purch there's not symmetry here. You said "oh yeah, break it down then!", to which he said basically, "I already did you just ignored it."

You can't come back with that and say "Well so did you" and keep credibility. You just asked him to do something and then admitted that when you saw him do it before you ignored it. C'mon!

Now, I'm sure that's not what you meant. But giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're not knowingly tell him to waste his time again means that you're not responding to this rationally, you're looking to blame the other guy. You can argue that he's doing the same to you, and he has no right to do that, but you, right here with what you've said need to take a step back.

With all of this, part of the issue is simply the scale of the conversation. Poster X explains something in one place, and some people don't see that, and ask for it elsewhere. This repeats often enough at Poster X gets upset, even though it's to be expected. If you want to say drza is doing this here, you're probably right to some degree.

However, people aren't going about this process of asking for explanations with universal respect. The antipathy toward the KG side is HUGE right now, and while that's to be expected, it's not reasonable.

The people sporting the non-standard viewpoint here have given TONS of information to support their viewpoint, which is the only reason why it's influenced some people. The fact that not all our influenced is completely fine. As I've stated before, your opinion is a fact, and no matter whether an opponent's arguments are trite or profound, if they don't sway you, they don't sway you.

When I started my pro-KG stuff here, which i did first but others did better especially drza, I didn't do it based on any ranking goal. I fully expected he wouldn't get voted in for a long while. What I wanted was for people to question their set assumptions about KG, and just have some food for thought as they left this project. In some sense it will be a success, but in others we run into the issue that comes when people are too focused on the actual results here.

And sure, the repetition helps fan the flames, but what else is there to do? penbeast won't even accept a vote without reasoning (which I think is quite right), so you've got to keep posting your thoughts, and then people respond to it and we're off to the races. How else could it really be?

I don't know. It's not like I"m immune to being frustrated at results in these projects. I've been there before, and I even had something of the sort with Wilt at the #4 spot. But it's something to fight against in yourself. When people bring new legit information to you even in service of a cause you disagree with, you want to be able to really let it add to your wisdom regardless.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #11 Runoff: Kobe vs KG 

Post#600 » by Texas Chuck » Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:05 pm

DQuinn1575 wrote:I didn't say Pippen didn't care - I said he wasn't the guy to win in the clutch-

migraine game
Kukoc shot where he sat on the bench

Pippen never took over the offense to win the game.



edit: Never mind. It's not worth getting into if you really let those 2 moments define Pip's career.
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