RealGM Top 100 List #12

[E-Balla]

The 01 to 14 one has Dirk at +7.1 and Kobe at +5.0. I believe this has better early 00's files, and I don't think Kobe fans will hate the inclusion of 2001 or even 2013, whereas Dirk had a poor (relatively speaking) 2013.

I never saw that one before and I'm wondering why those numbers would stray so far from their prime numbers from 02-11. I'd still personally look at 02-11 because it perfectly lines up with Dirk's prime.

The 2001-2014 sample (thread here) is definitely the best long term rapm sample to use because it accounts for aging (among other things).

Also these numbers aren't really trustworthy from the early part of the century.

Why? It's the exact same thing, JE parsed 2001, 2002, etc in this sample the same way he did 2013 and 2014...

Thanks. I'm about to read up on this real quick.

[therealbig3]

Vote: Kobe Bryant

So after thinking it over, I like both Kobe's peak and overall prime a tiny bit better than Karl Malone's. Malone certainly does have the longevity edge, but I don't think those extra pluses for Malone give him the edge when Kobe has the edge for the majority of their careers. It's very close though.

Malone's peak is underrated here though. He wasn't a playoff failure. On the contrary, his playoff peak is quite impressive considering the offensive load he had to carry against elite defensive teams. Bryant and Malone are a lot alike in that regard.

In the end, I like prime Kobe's offensive creativity and the perimeter scorer/creator a little more. Malone's defense is phenomenal (and underrated), but not quite enough here.

And what about Kobe vs Dirk? I'm having a really hard time picking one over the other.

We know they're completely different players, that exert their offensive impact differently...but can you really say that one is better than the other? And defensively, I know Kobe has the reputation...but knowing what we know about the importance of a PF defensively and Dirk's strong defensive rebounding...can you really say that one is better than the other?

And if you consider playoffs...not many people perform like Dirk in that regard, not even Kobe.

[MistyMountain20]

For Kobe's part on defense, there are numerous examples of where his defense directly influenced a series (positively ). Off the top of my head we have the battles with the Thunder where Bryant being placed onto Westbrook instead of Fisher (or Sessions) completely changed the tone of those series. In each series against the Celtics, the Lakers noticeably performed better when Kobe was on Rondo. Additionally, he also at various times (more especially in the '08 series) had to guard Allen and Pierce as well at various times and did a more than solid job.

In 2011, a hobbled Kobe was tasked with guarding a scorching hot Chris Paul towards the end of a surprisingly difficult series against the Hornets. He didn't shut him down, but his absence level of play in the prior games was not seen again if memory serves right. And I remember his team defense being terrific in the '09 Finals against the Magic.

I think with all the criticism Kobe gets on the defensive end, we forget how surprisingly versatile he is. I say versatile because he seems to be able to guard smaller guards with more often than not a good amount of success. He's had to guard Rondo, Westbrook, Lawson (forgot to mention him) and Paul among other players and that's just from the more recent years in the Playoffs, ignoring his defensive peak in the early 2000s (mostly because I don't remember as well as I do the recent years).

Not to be forgotten is the Lakers team defense, which was very good to excellent at times, but I think that's a trump guard people play to often to downplay Bryant's ability on the defensive end. There's reason why Bryant was placed onto these elite players and the Lakers afterwards had success after the switch.

I'm saying this because I'm a bit shocked that people are kinda suggesting that the defense between Kobe and Dirk is a toss up. And I like Dirk defensively, despite having a so-so reputation on the defensive end. But I don't believe Dirk has ever changed the course of a series with his defensive placement in a given series as often as Bryant has.

[Melodabeast]

Career post-season On/Off:

Dirk: +1.9
Kobe: +8.1

[ronnymac2]

Vote: Kobe Bryant

So after thinking it over, I like both Kobe's peak and overall prime a tiny bit better than Karl Malone's. Malone certainly does have the longevity edge, but I don't think those extra pluses for Malone give him the edge when Kobe has the edge for the majority of their careers. It's very close though.

Malone's peak is underrated here though. He wasn't a playoff failure. On the contrary, his playoff peak is quite impressive considering the offensive load he had to carry against elite defensive teams. Bryant and Malone are a lot alike in that regard.

In the end, I like prime Kobe's offensive creativity and the perimeter scorer/creator a little more. Malone's defense is phenomenal (and underrated), but not quite enough here.

And what about Kobe vs Dirk? I'm having a really hard time picking one over the other.

We know they're completely different players, that exert their offensive impact differently...but can you really say that one is better than the other? And defensively, I know Kobe has the reputation...but knowing what we know about the importance of a PF defensively and Dirk's strong defensive rebounding...can you really say that one is better than the other?

And if you consider playoffs...not many people perform like Dirk in that regard, not even Kobe.

That one is close, too. I don't think Dirk has a defensive advantage on Kobe like Malone does. I do like Dirk's defensive rebounding (on par or better than Malone's), and he's a good man defender, but not as good as Malone. Malone was also better laterally and as an enforcer. And Dirk doesn't even have the extra years like Malone (yet).

So is Dirk's offense in his prime that much better than Kobe's if at all? Well, I tend to think it depends on how you like to build your team. I certainly see the argument for Nowitzki because from 2008-2012, he had a Shaq-like warping effect IN THE MID-RANGE! That's insane. Kobe is a major weapon on ball though with his playmaking and ball-handling. It's certainly close.

[Texas Chuck]

Vote: Dirk Nowitzki aka Swish 41 aka Dirty

The thing that keeps coming up with me in regards to Dirk is it's easy for me to see him ranked behind Kobe, Mailman, Oscar, West, maybe even Admiral. I won't freak out if it happens, it seems reasonable But then I think if I was starting a franchise I would pick Dirk ahead of any of them. Some guys accomplished more in the RS, some are more overall talented, but Dirk seems like the best choice left of building a team around. His remarkable consistency, his durability, his playoff play, and his impact on his teammates I think seperate him here a bit. And this matters to me.

Again this is simply my explanation for my vote, not my case for Dirk. I will continue to build that as I feel the group is more receptive to his candidacy. But like KG moved up my board, so too did Dirk.

[semi-sentient]

For Kobe's part on defense, there are numerous examples of where his defense directly influenced a series (positively ). Off the top of my head we have the battles with the Thunder where Bryant being placed onto Westbrook instead of Fisher (or Sessions) completely changed the tone of those series. In each series against the Celtics, the Lakers noticeably performed better when Kobe was on Rondo. Additionally, he also at various times (more especially in the '08 series) had to guard Allen and Pierce as well at various times and did a more than solid job.

Going back further, you can see his impact on the 3-peat Lakers as he typically took on the opposing teams primary facilitator/creator (Kidd, Williams, Stoudemire, McKie/Snow, etc.) and did a great job of disrupting the offense. It wasn't uncommon to see him pressing full court for large chunks of the game, and I remember how that bothered the 76ers in the '01 Finals (among others). They were constantly getting into their halfcourt sets late in the clock, and it typically led to Iverson having to take difficult/low percentage shots late. This is part of what made him an elite man defender. He wasn't too shabby as a help defender either, although this is one area where he'd really slack off in the regular season which got him plenty of criticism from guys like Tex and Phil.

One of the key reasons Kobe was so good defensively, both early and later in his career (playoffs at least), is because he had a good amount of defensive help around him so that he could play to his strengths. Generally speaking, I think that's a prerequisite for all good defensive players to reach their maximum effectiveness, but moreso for wings than bigs.

Post-Frobe wasn't nearly as quick and had to conserve more so you didn't see him pressing all that much, but as that aspect declined his help defense improved. He also became a far better communicator on the court. See the 2009 Finals for plenty of examples of him doing that in crucial stretches (JVG goes on and on about it).

He did have a couple of series where he got roasted though. In 2003 Bowen lit him up in G2 because he wasn't respecting his shot, and that was a huge part of the reason that they lost. In 2008 against the Celtics I thought his defense was sub-par overall, and that was amplified by playing alongside Fisher and Radmanovic/Walton.

[Basketballefan]

Looks like it's run-off time: Kobe vs Oscar

Kobe 10 (Ardee, Basketballefan, batmana, GC Pantalones, JordanBulls, ShaqAttack3234, lukekarts, john248, DHodgkins, ronnymac2)
Oscar 8 ( DannyNoonan1221, DQuinn1575, Heartbreakkid, lorak, Narigo, Owly, Quotatious, SactoKingsFan)

I'm going off Penbeast's count with the addition of ronnymac's vote

[MistyMountain20]

Right, I thought that he played well against Iverson. One thing idk if it's ever been mentioned and to my knowledge there's no way of quantifying this without looking towards tape, but I've always felt Kobe was excellent at ball denial defense. Keeping the ball out of the hands of a star player, causing the other team to get way late into their offense. His off the ball defense in terms of rotating can be up and down, but I thought he did a great job of harassing players, particularly stars. Might be something worth keeping an eye out when going through game tape to anyone that does so.

[penbeast0]

Kobe 10 (Ardee, Basketballefan, batmana, GC Pantalones, JordanBulls, ShaqAttack3234, lukekarts, john248, DHodgkins, ronnymac2)
Oscar 8 ( DannyNoonan1221, DQuinn1575, Heartbreakkid, lorak, Narigo, Owly, Quotatious, SactoKingsFan)

K. Malone 5 (baller2014, FJS, magicmerl, therealbig3, trex_8063)
West 2 (penbeast, RayBan-Sematra)
Dr J 2 ( Clyde Frazier, Warspite)
Dirk 2 (PCProductions, Chuck Texas)
Drob 1 ( shutupandjam)

Updated at 5.17P EST
Warning: I will be out tonight so I will be calling this very close to 5PM EST.

We have a runoff between Kobe and Oscar. For the Oscar voters, I need to be convinced that the Royals performed up to their talent level. I don't think they did, but I really only started watching basketball in 1969 and I was 10 years old so it wasn't that discriminating that early. If you can't clear that up for me, my runoff vote is for Kobe Bryant.

[Clyde Frazier]

Vote: Kobe Bryant

So after thinking it over, I like both Kobe's peak and overall prime a tiny bit better than Karl Malone's. Malone certainly does have the longevity edge, but I don't think those extra pluses for Malone give him the edge when Kobe has the edge for the majority of their careers. It's very close though.

Malone's peak is underrated here though. He wasn't a playoff failure. On the contrary, his playoff peak is quite impressive considering the offensive load he had to carry against elite defensive teams. Bryant and Malone are a lot alike in that regard.

In the end, I like prime Kobe's offensive creativity and the perimeter scorer/creator a little more. Malone's defense is phenomenal (and underrated), but not quite enough here.

And what about Kobe vs Dirk? I'm having a really hard time picking one over the other.

We know they're completely different players, that exert their offensive impact differently...but can you really say that one is better than the other? And defensively, I know Kobe has the reputation...but knowing what we know about the importance of a PF defensively and Dirk's strong defensive rebounding...can you really say that one is better than the other?

And if you consider playoffs...not many people perform like Dirk in that regard, not even Kobe.

That one is close, too. I don't think Dirk has a defensive advantage on Kobe like Malone does. I do like Dirk's defensive rebounding (on par or better than Malone's), and he's a good man defender, but not as good as Malone. Malone was also better laterally and as an enforcer. And Dirk doesn't even have the extra years like Malone (yet).

So is Dirk's offense in his prime that much better than Kobe's if at all? Well, I tend to think it depends on how you like to build your team. I certainly see the argument for Nowitzki because from 2008-2012, he had a Shaq-like warping effect IN THE MID-RANGE! That's insane. Kobe is a major weapon on ball though with his playmaking and ball-handling. It's certainly close.

I'd take post 2008 dirk offensively over any version of kobe, personally. He really became un-guardable, and developed elite patience when it came to shot selection. He was unflappable, as they like to say. Sure, kobe has the "killer instinct" label, but any shot to him at the end of games was a "good shot" simply because he was the one taking it. Not quite as bad as westbrook has shown over the last few seasons, but we've all seen it. As I said in the last thread, though, kobe certainly has a good case over dirk career vs. career.

[tsherkin]

Led sub-.500 team (1981 Rockets) to NBA finals

Led his team to a sub-.500 record. Won a best of 3 series 2-1. Magic sucking brutally lost LA hat series. That was he year of the cartiledge injury to his knee and his playoff return mucking up chemistry a d air-balled a buzzer-beater at the end of game 3. How much credit moses deserves for this is debatable, as is yor lack of a nodto how wicked Calvin murphy was in that postseason. He was +4 and +9 ppg over his regular season averages over the first two postseason matchups, stepping up in a big way.

Kansas inthe WCFs was also a 40-42 team and houston smashed them easily. It was the perfect storm for Houston and while it's laudable that it happened, one should be a tad leery of crediting Moses with a serious elevation performance.

Led 1983 Sixers to championship:
[list]Fo-Fo-Fo: Lost only one game during playoffs

Did he? Doc was two years removed from an NBA MVP. Philly won 58 games in 82 and lost to LA in the Finals. The change in the team wasn't as big as you'd imagine from the fanfare associated with the season. Doctor J, 3rd in the vote in 82, was still 5th in MVP voting. Magic averaged 6 turnovers per game and couldn't score worth a damn. Nixon was useless because he (like Worthy and McAdoo) was injured.

Again, a notable achievement, but moses was far from the leader so much as the final piece. Narrative has changed the tone of that story, but people forget that Erving was still great and that the Sixers were EC champs the year before, and the dominant EC squad of the time.

An impressive career, butthese specific achievements are rarely discussed in context.

[therealbig3]

I do want to ask...Westbrook, Rondo, and Kidd are brought up as examples of PGs that Kobe played great defense on, and I can't help but notice that all of those guys are not so great outside shooters.

I'm asking because I don't remember these series as well, but was he defending Chris Paul, Deron Williams, and Steve Nash (guys with elite outside shots who were also great floor generals) when they played the Lakers, because those guys have had some really great performances against the Lakers, and I was wondering if Kobe was ever used to slow them down? How did he do?

I know MistyMountain mentioned Paul in 2011, and that Kobe was better than the other defenders, but Paul was still doing his thing, basically. What about Deron from 08-10? What about Nash in 06, 07, and 10?

[Texas Chuck]

Run-Off Vote: Oscar

Almost voted for him over Dirk to begin with. Great all-around player who is one of the guys from the older generations whom no one should question his ability to play in the modern era. I know many of you scoff at any media, coaching, or player given accolades, but this guy was widely considered the best guard to ever play until Magic/Mike showed up and other than West you can't begin to argue with them.

Just an offensive beast who could beat you in a multitude of different ways. I've read a lot of the Oscar v Kobe stuff and none of it is convincing me to go with Kobe.

[Jim Naismith]

Again, a notable achievement, but moses was far from the leader so much as the final piece. Narrative has changed the tone of that story, but people forget that Erving was still great and that the Sixers were EC champs the year before, and the dominant EC squad of the time.

An impressive career, butthese specific achievements are rarely discussed in context.

Moses was the final piece that enabled them to go from losing 2-4 against the Lakers to a 4-0 sweep.

This is a pretty clear demonstration of on/off impact.

[tsherkin]

Again, a notable achievement, but moses was far from the leader so much as the final piece. Narrative has changed the tone of that story, but people forget that Erving was still great and that the Sixers were EC champs the year before, and the dominant EC squad of the time.

An impressive career, butthese specific achievements are rarely discussed in context.

Moses was the final piece that enabled them to go from losing 2-4 against the Lakers to a 4-0 sweep.

This is a pretty clear demonstration of on/off impact.

Well, that and injuries to three key players, plus a terrible series from magic

[therealbig3]

Oscar is very impressive by the limited data we have, but some of the arguments for Kobe have been outstanding imo. At the end of the day, I have more confidence in Kobe, because there's more readily available information about him (game footage, data, qualitative analysis). I think I get the general impression that these guys were basically equal, but I lean towards Kobe, because I might have been underrating him as an offensive player, and maybe even as a defensive player. I also think I give him a slight edge in terms of longevity (Oscar 61-72 as high impact years, vs Kobe 99-12 as high impact years).

Run-off Vote: Kobe Bryant

[colts18]

I do want to ask...Westbrook, Rondo, and Kidd are brought up as examples of PGs that Kobe played great defense on, and I can't help but notice that all of those guys are not so great outside shooters.

I'm asking because I don't remember these series as well, but was he defending Chris Paul, Deron Williams, and Steve Nash (guys with elite outside shots who were also great floor generals) when they played the Lakers, because those guys have had some really great performances against the Lakers, and I was wondering if Kobe was ever used to slow them down? How did he do?

I know MistyMountain mentioned Paul in 2011, and that Kobe was better than the other defenders, but Paul was still doing his thing, basically. What about Deron from 08-10? What about Nash in 06, 07, and 10?

It's a myth that Kobe was playing Westbrook often in the 2010 series. Westbrook had 13 FGA against Kobe in that series. His total in that series is 91 FGA (just 1/7 of his FGA).

Kobe also didn't shut down Kidd in 2002. Kidd's stat in that series were actually better than his regular season stats. His TS% and O rating went up in that series.

[Owly]

Kobe 10 (Ardee, Basketballefan, batmana, GC Pantalones, JordanBulls, ShaqAttack3234, lukekarts, john248, DHodgkins, ronnymac2)
Oscar 8 ( DannyNoonan1221, DQuinn1575, Heartbreakkid, lorak, Narigo, Owly, Quotatious, SactoKingsFan)

K. Malone 5 (baller2014, FJS, magicmerl, therealbig3, trex_8063)
West 2 (penbeast, RayBan-Sematra)
Dr J 2 ( Clyde Frazier, Warspite)
Dirk 2 (PCProductions, Chuck Texas)
Drob 1 ( shutupandjam)

Updated at 5.17P EST
Warning: I will be out tonight so I will be calling this very close to 5PM EST.

We have a runoff between Kobe and Oscar. For the Oscar voters, I need to be convinced that the Royals performed up to their talent level. I don't think they did, but I really only started watching basketball in 1969 and I was 10 years old so it wasn't that discriminating that early. If you can't clear that up for me, my runoff vote is for Kobe Bryant.

I don't know if I want to campaign for votes, but in what years do you think Royals teams disappointed relative to talent levels? The obvious rejoinder would be to point out how they did without him in his prime, but in any case it might be easier for someone to allay your concerns if they knew more precisely what they were.

[tsherkin]

I'm going with Oscar as my run-off vote for now.

I've had a number of original concerns reversed as I've read the wonderful posts in this and previous threads. It's gonna be hll for me to decide between Mailman, Kobe, West, Doctor J and Dirk over the next few spots. Time to give The Big O his due, though. His book was my an early core piece for my coaching time, heh.