Suns and Bledsoe on the Verge of Irreparable Relationship

[RSCD3_]

I'd be happy to hear an argument but I can't see one. Dragic did pretty much everything better last year, and his advanced numbers, plus/minus, efficiency, etc were all better. He was also the team leader this year (and he also didn't miss half the season). Bledsoe is stronger and more athletic but Dragic is a better player now, helps his team more and has a more positive overall impact.

It more like Net Present Value thing. Dragic is 28, Bledsoe is 24. Eric is a two way player which can't really be quantified. 4 years from now Goran will be a bench warmer on his way out of the league and Bledsoe will be in the middle of his prime.

Who do you love?

where have you been the last half decade? Plenty of ways to quantify defense. 82games has Dragic as the better defender, and much better player. So does basketball reference. Dragic is currently the better player, face of that franchise, and in 4 years will still be in his prime. You have no clue what you're saying.

Dragic is not the better defender, Bledsoe has better athleticism and length and can help lock down the 1 and 2. Dragic is a slightly above average defender


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[spaceballer]

Smh, two bench players and a 40 year old who is literally in the trade so he can retire, for Eric Bledsoe. C'mon man...

Don't worry, that transaction is not allowed by the CBA rules right now. People are just throwing out bizarre scenarios

Bledsoe will mostly likely eventually reach a deal with the Suns before training camp starts. He has no leverage to force a sign-and-trade, and no takers out there willing or able to offer him more money in an offer sheet, and he's not going to take the QO because of his injury risks and little financial benefit. He'll posture if he wants, but he'll sign before training camp, probably. It's the off-season, it doesn't make any difference to the Suns or to Bledsoe if he signs now or waits till just before training camp. He's "stuck" as he's said.

Giving the Suns Hill, Nash and Johnson for Bledsoe is fair. First of all, Nash is going into the Hall of Game as a Sun. Their greatest player ever should be honored by their organization. Hill is a rebounder and inside scorer they need with Frye leaving. Wes is a throw in for salary purposes.

So you expect Bledsoe to sit out the season and wait till Dec./Jan. so that the Lakers are able to trade Hill and Johnson for him? Because trading Hill or Johnson right now violates the CBA.

You are not allowed to trade newly re-signed free agents till Dec./Jan. (the exact month depends on whether you used straight cap space or bird rights to sign/re-sign them), whether you have their consent or not. The only way you can immediately trade a player is with a sign-and-trade contract. Hill and Johnson have already re-signed using regular non-sign-and-trade contracts. That means there's a trade moratorium on them. They can't be used right now in a Bledsoe sign-and-trade.

You expect Bledsoe to cool his heels and wait till Dec./Jan. to join the Lakers in a sign-and-trade for Hill and Johnson? Or you expect the Suns to wait till the middle of the season and throw out their chemistry and training camp and everything else just so they can consummate such a sign-and-trade in Dec./Jan.?

A sign-and-trade of Bledsoe to the Lakers right now that involves Hill or Johnson or any other newly signed/re-signed free agent is not allowed by the CBA.

[I_Never Lied]

I'd be happy to hear an argument but I can't see one. Dragic did pretty much everything better last year, and his advanced numbers, plus/minus, efficiency, etc were all better. He was also the team leader this year (and he also didn't miss half the season). Bledsoe is stronger and more athletic but Dragic is a better player now, helps his team more and has a more positive overall impact.

It more like Net Present Value thing. Dragic is 28, Bledsoe is 24. Eric is a two way player which can't really be quantified. 4 years from now Goran will be a bench warmer on his way out of the league and Bledsoe will be in the middle of his prime.

Who do you love?

where have you been the last half decade? Plenty of ways to quantify defense. 82games has Dragic as the better defender, and much better player. So does basketball reference. Dragic is currently the better player, face of that franchise, and in 4 years will still be in his prime. You have no clue what you're saying.

How many 32 year old point guards are still in their prime? Dragic is at his absolute peak, it only goes downhill from here. Just like in the NFL, they don't wait until you start sucking before they cut you. And no, you can't accurately quantify defense, basketball reference has Carlos Boozer as a top 10 defender.

Time Money Future. You can't comprehend.

[Chicago-Bull-E]

It more like Net Present Value thing. Dragic is 28, Bledsoe is 24. Eric is a two way player which can't really be quantified. 4 years from now Goran will be a bench warmer on his way out of the league and Bledsoe will be in the middle of his prime.

Who do you love?

where have you been the last half decade? Plenty of ways to quantify defense. 82games has Dragic as the better defender, and much better player. So does basketball reference. Dragic is currently the better player, face of that franchise, and in 4 years will still be in his prime. You have no clue what you're saying.

Dragic is not the better defender, Bledsoe has better athleticism and length and can help lock down the 1 and 2. Dragic is a slightly above average defender


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Maybe Bledsoe has the more defensive potential, and maybe injuries played a part in his lower numbers, but last year Dragic was better by all the measurements I'm looking at. What is it you're using to determine this conclusion?

I'd agree that Bledsoe has the tools. but tools don't mean squat in the real world. Production does.

[Chicago-Bull-E]

It more like Net Present Value thing. Dragic is 28, Bledsoe is 24. Eric is a two way player which can't really be quantified. 4 years from now Goran will be a bench warmer on his way out of the league and Bledsoe will be in the middle of his prime.

Who do you love?

where have you been the last half decade? Plenty of ways to quantify defense. 82games has Dragic as the better defender, and much better player. So does basketball reference. Dragic is currently the better player, face of that franchise, and in 4 years will still be in his prime. You have no clue what you're saying.

How many 32 year old point guards are still in their prime? Dragic is at his absolute peak, it only goes downhill from here. Just like in the NFL, they don't wait until you start sucking before they cut you. And no, you can't accurately quantify defense, basketball reference has Carlos Boozer as a top 10 defender.

Time Money Future. You can't comprehend.

Actually contracts in the nba work nothing like the nfl. The contracts are guaranteed, which means you don't get cut. It's why Boozer has been starting for the bulls the last two years.

Dragic doesn't rely on athleticism, where you see shorter peaks and earlier primes. He'll be just fine at 32, in the same way Ginobli was.

And what's Carlos boozer top 10 in over there?

[JellosJigglin]

Bledsoe is a tremendous defender. The fact there is any metric in the world that says Dragic is a better defender is proof of how deceptive stats can be. Just watch the game.

[HotRocks34]

I would take Dragic over Bledsoe, for two reasons.

1. Bledsoe seems injury prone, and I think he has had part of his meniscus removed. I think that Wade's issues with his knee have to do with missing meniscus

2. Bledsoe is a bit undersized at 6' 0.25" barefoot.

There is a 3.5 year age difference between Dragic and Bledsoe, but the Total Career Minutes difference is about 5,000 minutes (10,600 to 5,500). That's about 1.5-2.0 seasons or so.

Dragic's ORTG/DRTG from BBall Ref last year was 119/109 (+9). Bledsoe's was 110/106 (+4). Their WS/48 were .186 (GD) to .140 (EB).

Dragic is the bigger and better player, at least at this time. My guess is he will have less injury issues going forward, also, as compared with the shorter Bledsoe.

[I_Never Lied]

where have you been the last half decade? Plenty of ways to quantify defense. 82games has Dragic as the better defender, and much better player. So does basketball reference. Dragic is currently the better player, face of that franchise, and in 4 years will still be in his prime. You have no clue what you're saying.

How many 32 year old point guards are still in their prime? Dragic is at his absolute peak, it only goes downhill from here. Just like in the NFL, they don't wait until you start sucking before they cut you. And no, you can't accurately quantify defense, basketball reference has Carlos Boozer as a top 10 defender.

Time Money Future. You can't comprehend.

Actually contracts in the nba work nothing like the nfl. The contracts are guaranteed, which means you don't get cut. It's why Boozer has been starting for the bulls the last two years.

Dragic doesn't rely on athleticism, where you see shorter peaks and earlier primes. He'll be just fine at 32, in the same way Ginobli was.

And what's Carlos boozer top 10 in over there?

Carlos Boozer is top 10 in DRTG on basketball reference. You cannot rely on those straw-man stats.

Athleticism has nothing to so with it, It is size. Guys under 6'4 do not extend primes past 31-32. Ginobli is 6'6, a HOF and is also straight up a better player than Dragic. This is the main reason why the owners shortened the lengths of contracts. Again please find me some 32 year old PG in their prime. In 4 years Dragic will be Steve Blake, while Bledsoe will still be a MAX contract guy.


You want Steve Blake?

[Mik317]

How many 32 year old point guards are still in their prime? Dragic is at his absolute peak, it only goes downhill from here. Just like in the NFL, they don't wait until you start sucking before they cut you. And no, you can't accurately quantify defense, basketball reference has Carlos Boozer as a top 10 defender.

Time Money Future. You can't comprehend.

Actually contracts in the nba work nothing like the nfl. The contracts are guaranteed, which means you don't get cut. It's why Boozer has been starting for the bulls the last two years.

Dragic doesn't rely on athleticism, where you see shorter peaks and earlier primes. He'll be just fine at 32, in the same way Ginobli was.

And what's Carlos boozer top 10 in over there?

Carlos Boozer is top 10 in DRTG on basketball reference. You cannot rely on those straw-man stats.

Athleticism has nothing to so with it, It is size. Guys under 6'4 do not extend primes past 31-32. Ginobli is 6'6, a HOF and is also straight up a better player than Dragic. This is the main reason why the owners shortened the lengths of contracts. Again please find me some 32 year old PG in their prime. In 4 years Dragic will be Steve Blake, while Bledsoe will still be a MAX contract guy.


You want Steve Blake?

Uh....

Dragic may in fact fall off as he gets older but there are plenty of small guards that played into their late 30s. Nash, Kidd, Stockton..a lot of HOF which Dragic is not but all of them relied heavily on their "skills and smarts" more so than their speed/athleticism (Andre Miller is the King of this..dude still can give out that work despite being fat and slow). Dragic can be a damn solid player for a while barring injuries. Injuries are generally the falling off point for guards.

[NBAfan3024]

So is the Q offer coming?

[nashtymvp]

dragic>>> bledsoe, its not close.

[I_Never Lied]

Actually contracts in the nba work nothing like the nfl. The contracts are guaranteed, which means you don't get cut. It's why Boozer has been starting for the bulls the last two years.

Dragic doesn't rely on athleticism, where you see shorter peaks and earlier primes. He'll be just fine at 32, in the same way Ginobli was.

And what's Carlos boozer top 10 in over there?

Carlos Boozer is top 10 in DRTG on basketball reference. You cannot rely on those straw-man stats.

Athleticism has nothing to so with it, It is size. Guys under 6'4 do not extend primes past 31-32. Ginobli is 6'6, a HOF and is also straight up a better player than Dragic. This is the main reason why the owners shortened the lengths of contracts. Again please find me some 32 year old PG in their prime. In 4 years Dragic will be Steve Blake, while Bledsoe will still be a MAX contract guy.


You want Steve Blake?

Uh....

Dragic may in fact fall off as he gets older but there are plenty of small guards that played into their late 30s. Nash, Kidd, Stockton..a lot of HOF which Dragic is not but all of them relied heavily on their "skills and smarts" more so than their speed/athleticism (Andre Miller is the King of this..dude still can give out that work despite being fat and slow). Dragic can be a damn solid player for a while barring injuries. Injuries are generally the falling off point for guards.

Dragic is NOT Stockton/Kidd/Nash so that point is Moot. Andre Miller has been traded 4 times since he turned 32 and was NOT in his prime whatsoever. Dragic will most definitely still be in the league at 32, but he will be Luke Ridnour, while Bledsoe will still be a MAX guy.

[KrazyP]

How many 32 year old point guards are still in their prime? Dragic is at his absolute peak, it only goes downhill from here. Just like in the NFL, they don't wait until you start sucking before they cut you. And no, you can't accurately quantify defense, basketball reference has Carlos Boozer as a top 10 defender.

Time Money Future. You can't comprehend.

Actually contracts in the nba work nothing like the nfl. The contracts are guaranteed, which means you don't get cut. It's why Boozer has been starting for the bulls the last two years.

Dragic doesn't rely on athleticism, where you see shorter peaks and earlier primes. He'll be just fine at 32, in the same way Ginobli was.

And what's Carlos boozer top 10 in over there?

Carlos Boozer is top 10 in DRTG on basketball reference. You cannot rely on those straw-man stats.

Athleticism has nothing to so with it, It is size. Guys under 6'4 do not extend primes past 31-32. Ginobli is 6'6, a HOF and is also straight up a better player than Dragic. This is the main reason why the owners shortened the lengths of contracts. Again please find me some 32 year old PG in their prime. In 4 years Dragic will be Steve Blake, while Bledsoe will still be a MAX contract guy.

Steve Nash played at high level into his late 30s. John Stockton was still an all-star at age 40. Chuancey Billups best years were between 30-35. Size has nothing to do with it. Guys who are reliant on athleticism (speed, hops, etc.) are the ones whose careers fade faster.

Bledsoe is looking for a bloated max contract and is a huge injury risk. Dragic will sign at a fraction of the max and will give you at least 4-5 prime years of high level play. If given the choice between the two today, most logical GMs would take Dragic. Most GMs only look at 4-5 year windows because NBA roster turnover is so high.

The Suns are going to have a hard time trading Bledsoe for fair value because he's looking for a contract that he hasn't earned regardless of what his potential may or may not be. This is why this stuation is still in limbo right now. If he was currently a legit max player, he'd be signed already.

[NapoleonII]

How many 32 year old point guards are still in their prime? Dragic is at his absolute peak, it only goes downhill from here. Just like in the NFL, they don't wait until you start sucking before they cut you. And no, you can't accurately quantify defense, basketball reference has Carlos Boozer as a top 10 defender.

Time Money Future. You can't comprehend.

Actually contracts in the nba work nothing like the nfl. The contracts are guaranteed, which means you don't get cut. It's why Boozer has been starting for the bulls the last two years.

Dragic doesn't rely on athleticism, where you see shorter peaks and earlier primes. He'll be just fine at 32, in the same way Ginobli was.

And what's Carlos boozer top 10 in over there?

Carlos Boozer is top 10 in DRTG on basketball reference. You cannot rely on those straw-man stats.

Athleticism has nothing to so with it, It is size. Guys under 6'4 do not extend primes past 31-32. Ginobli is 6'6, a HOF and is also straight up a better player than Dragic. This is the main reason why the owners shortened the lengths of contracts. Again please find me some 32 year old PG in their prime. In 4 years Dragic will be Steve Blake, while Bledsoe will still be a MAX contract guy.


You want Steve Blake?

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=ho ... ony+parker

[I_Never Lied]

Actually contracts in the nba work nothing like the nfl. The contracts are guaranteed, which means you don't get cut. It's why Boozer has been starting for the bulls the last two years.

Dragic doesn't rely on athleticism, where you see shorter peaks and earlier primes. He'll be just fine at 32, in the same way Ginobli was.

And what's Carlos boozer top 10 in over there?

Carlos Boozer is top 10 in DRTG on basketball reference. You cannot rely on those straw-man stats.

Athleticism has nothing to so with it, It is size. Guys under 6'4 do not extend primes past 31-32. Ginobli is 6'6, a HOF and is also straight up a better player than Dragic. This is the main reason why the owners shortened the lengths of contracts. Again please find me some 32 year old PG in their prime. In 4 years Dragic will be Steve Blake, while Bledsoe will still be a MAX contract guy.

Steve Nash played at high level into his late 30s. John Stockton was still an all-star at age 40.
Size has nothing to do with it. Guys who are reliant on athleticism (speed, hops, etc.) are the ones whose careers fade faster.

Bledsoe is looking for a bloated max contract and is a huge injury risk. Dragic will sign at a fraction of the max and will give you 4-5 prime years of high level play. If given the choice between the two today, most logical GMs would take Dragic.

John Stockton was on the 92' dream team. Steve Nash has two MVP's. Goran Dragic is Goran Dragic. If you really think 4-5 years from now Dragic will still be a high level player then you're just flat out wrong. 4 years from now, when Goran Dragic is 33 years old, he will either be starting for a bottom feeder like the 76'ers, or coming off the bench for fringe playoff team.

At this same point in time, Bledsoe will still be running fast and jumping high.

[KrazyP]

Carlos Boozer is top 10 in DRTG on basketball reference. You cannot rely on those straw-man stats.

Athleticism has nothing to so with it, It is size. Guys under 6'4 do not extend primes past 31-32. Ginobli is 6'6, a HOF and is also straight up a better player than Dragic. This is the main reason why the owners shortened the lengths of contracts. Again please find me some 32 year old PG in their prime. In 4 years Dragic will be Steve Blake, while Bledsoe will still be a MAX contract guy.

Steve Nash played at high level into his late 30s. John Stockton was still an all-star at age 40.
Size has nothing to do with it. Guys who are reliant on athleticism (speed, hops, etc.) are the ones whose careers fade faster.

Bledsoe is looking for a bloated max contract and is a huge injury risk. Dragic will sign at a fraction of the max and will give you 4-5 prime years of high level play. If given the choice between the two today, most logical GMs would take Dragic.

John Stock was on the 92 dream team. Steve Nash has two MVP's. Goran Dragic is Goran Dragic. If you really think 4-5 years from now Dragic will still be a high level player then you're just flat out wrong. 4 years from now, when Goran Dragic is 33 years old, he will either be starting for a bottom feeder like the 76'ers, or coming off the bench for fringe playoff team.

At this same point in time, Bledsoe will still be running fast and jumping high.

It doesnt really matter how high you think Bledsoe will be able to jump when he's 28.

Dragic is currently 27-28 yrs old. He will give 4-5 years of great play regardless of whether or not you think he'll completely fall off the map at 32. He's also not injury prone and wont command a bloated max contract. Because of Bledsoe;s injury history and contract demands, Dragic presents way better risk/reward than him.

[inquisitive]

can't believe he hasn't re-signed the 4yr/48mil deal yet...smh

Why? Its like you guys just hate to see a young athlete with tattoo exact his power. He's the best player on the team and should be paid like it. End of story.

No..this is why...has nothing to do with his ability or tattoos

[spanishninja]

Carlos Boozer is top 10 in DRTG on basketball reference. You cannot rely on those straw-man stats.

Athleticism has nothing to so with it, It is size. Guys under 6'4 do not extend primes past 31-32. Ginobli is 6'6, a HOF and is also straight up a better player than Dragic. This is the main reason why the owners shortened the lengths of contracts. Again please find me some 32 year old PG in their prime. In 4 years Dragic will be Steve Blake, while Bledsoe will still be a MAX contract guy.

Steve Nash played at high level into his late 30s. John Stockton was still an all-star at age 40.
Size has nothing to do with it. Guys who are reliant on athleticism (speed, hops, etc.) are the ones whose careers fade faster.

Bledsoe is looking for a bloated max contract and is a huge injury risk. Dragic will sign at a fraction of the max and will give you 4-5 prime years of high level play. If given the choice between the two today, most logical GMs would take Dragic.

John Stockton was on the 92' dream team. Steve Nash has two MVP's. Goran Dragic is Goran Dragic. If you really think 4-5 years from now Dragic will still be a high level player then you're just flat out wrong. 4 years from now, when Goran Dragic is 33 years old, he will either be starting for a bottom feeder like the 76'ers, or coming off the bench for fringe playoff team.

At this same point in time, Bledsoe will still be running fast and jumping high.

A good player comparison with bledsoe would be someone like kevin Johson, who was also extremely athletic, and had a long history of injuries. He retired at the age of 32, not counting his brief comeback in 00 when he wasnt the same player.

[Trader_Joe]

Carlos Boozer is top 10 in DRTG on basketball reference. You cannot rely on those straw-man stats.

Athleticism has nothing to so with it, It is size. Guys under 6'4 do not extend primes past 31-32. Ginobli is 6'6, a HOF and is also straight up a better player than Dragic. This is the main reason why the owners shortened the lengths of contracts. Again please find me some 32 year old PG in their prime. In 4 years Dragic will be Steve Blake, while Bledsoe will still be a MAX contract guy.

Steve Nash played at high level into his late 30s. John Stockton was still an all-star at age 40.
Size has nothing to do with it. Guys who are reliant on athleticism (speed, hops, etc.) are the ones whose careers fade faster.

Bledsoe is looking for a bloated max contract and is a huge injury risk. Dragic will sign at a fraction of the max and will give you 4-5 prime years of high level play. If given the choice between the two today, most logical GMs would take Dragic.

John Stockton was on the 92' dream team. Steve Nash has two MVP's. Goran Dragic is Goran Dragic. If you really think 4-5 years from now Dragic will still be a high level player then you're just flat out wrong. 4 years from now, when Goran Dragic is 33 years old, he will either be starting for a bottom feeder like the 76'ers, or coming off the bench for fringe playoff team.

At this same point in time, Bledsoe will still be running fast and jumping high.

His point, which I agree with, is that PGs in general seem to be able to play their peak game longer than other positions. The rules protect them and they generally are not very physical in their games. I agree the most athletic ones would fall off faster, but I think Dragic at 32 will be pretty close to his peak especially because he will have even more intangibles and experience by then to rely on. PG is a very mental position.

[NothingButLuck]

where have you been the last half decade? Plenty of ways to quantify defense. 82games has Dragic as the better defender, and much better player. So does basketball reference. Dragic is currently the better player, face of that franchise, and in 4 years will still be in his prime. You have no clue what you're saying.

Dragic is not the better defender, Bledsoe has better athleticism and length and can help lock down the 1 and 2. Dragic is a slightly above average defender


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Maybe Bledsoe has the more defensive potential, and maybe injuries played a part in his lower numbers, but last year Dragic was better by all the measurements I'm looking at. What is it you're using to determine this conclusion?

I'd agree that Bledsoe has the tools. but tools don't mean squat in the real world. Production does.

Bledsoe is better defensively, and it's not even close.

D-xRAPM/100
Bledsoe: +2.99
Dragic: -0.90

2yr D-APM/100
Bledsoe: +4.85
Dragic: +1.07

Synergy Opp PPP. overall
Bledose: 0.85
Dragic: 0.89