RealGM Top 100 List #17

[90sAllDecade]

Dirk got in huh, I can live with that. I didn't have time to finish researching, but I was leaning towards Barkley if I had to make a rushed choice before beforehand.

I still haven't fully hashed them out and will abstain from voting until I have a comfortable choice rather than affect the totals.

[FJS]

I find it strange that Karl has been in runoffs since the 12th-13th spot and still hasn't got in yet and were at 17.

It's not. He is pretty disliked. A lot of nba specialist have him as the 2nd best pf... and here is beaten by garnett, dirk and maybe Barkley.
Anchor deffensive, better po performer, better peak... ignoring that karl was better than them more years that the ones they were better than him.

[john248]

I find it strange that Karl has been in runoffs since the 12th-13th spot and still hasn't got in yet and were at 17.

It's not. He is pretty disliked. A lot of nba specialist have him as the 2nd best pf... and here is beaten by garnett, dirk and maybe Barkley.
Anchor deffensive, better po performer, better peak... ignoring that karl was better than them more years that the ones they were better than him.

I don't think people dislike Karl. In the eyes of many, he's fallen behind just a few of the more recent PFs who've gained in years while having great primes/peaks themselves in Dirk and KG. If you feel he's the 2nd best PF, there's nothing wrong with that too.

[ThaRegul8r]

I find it strange that Karl has been in runoffs since the 12th-13th spot and still hasn't got in yet and were at 17.

It's not. He is pretty disliked. A lot of nba specialist have him as the 2nd best pf... and here is beaten by garnett, dirk and maybe Barkley.
Anchor deffensive, better po performer, better peak... ignoring that karl was better than them more years that the ones they were better than him.

I don't think people dislike Karl. In the eyes of many, he's fallen behind just a few of the more recent PFs who've gained in years while having great primes/peaks themselves in Dirk and KG. If you feel he's the 2nd best PF, there's nothing wrong with that too.

It's like the Kobe hate.

They both have four-letter first names:

K-O-B-E
K-A-R-L

They both six-letter last names:

B-R-Y-A-N-T
M-A-L-O-N-E

And they both played for the Lakers.

[Doctor MJ]

I find it strange that Karl has been in runoffs since the 12th-13th spot and still hasn't got in yet and were at 17.

It's not. He is pretty disliked. A lot of nba specialist have him as the 2nd best pf... and here is beaten by garnett, dirk and maybe Barkley.
Anchor deffensive, better po performer, better peak... ignoring that karl was better than them more years that the ones they were better than him.

I don't think people dislike Karl. In the eyes of many, he's fallen behind just a few of the more recent PFs who've gained in years while having great primes/peaks themselves in Dirk and KG. If you feel he's the 2nd best PF, there's nothing wrong with that too.

Yeah it would be one thing if Karl was getting caught from behind in runoffs time after time, but him missing the runoffs altogether after making it at #13 means something is actually changing as we go.

I think it's a few things:
-If memory serves, Kobe won the 13 spot pretty easily, which means that Malone didn't get to the runoff based on heavy support, which means that as Kobe's votes got re-distributed after his induction there was plenty to bump other guys ahead of Malone.
-Arguments are probably having an effect.
-Voters are probably being a bit inconsistent with participation. And by that I mean not simply voters not voting every thread, but voters voting earlier and later in a given thread which can lead to momentum going in different directions.

[Doctor MJ]

Vote: Karl Malone

I'm voting earlier this time because of what I said last thread about the runoff cutoff getting a little to low for my taste. Doesn't mean I'll refuse to change my vote, but it is unlikely I'll change my vote.

I'm hearing Malone vs Barkley discussed, and honestly I can't quite make myself see a real debate. I personally much prefer Barkley to Malone from a watchability perspective, but longevity and defense are real things.

The Malone vs Robinson debate is much tougher for me. There's a part of me who really goes for Robinson here, but Malone was 34 years old in 1998 and still carrying the full superstar load at a level that I can't say is a lower tier than Robinson's peak. Add in the arguments shown about Malone getting the edge in the playoffs against Robinson - an area that's been used to bludgeon Malone again and again here should not be ignored when he comes out looking good with it.

[Quotatious]

I really don't know who I'll go with here. I had Moses, Karl, D-Rob, Nash and Barkley, in this order, before the project, so I guess Moses should be my first choice player here, but I'm really not sure about it. I'm really wary of bad defensive bigs, and would really appreciate if someone could share anything more about his defense. Maybe he wasn't really as bad as his teams' defensive ratings indicate?

I may change to Karl. D-Rob would be a great candidate if he had better longevity (I think he was a bit better than Karl in his prime, because of his defensive impact, and still pretty damn good offense). Barkley and Nash are a little below Moses, Karl and Dave, to me, but I guess a really convincing argument could sway me to support one of them (I have Nash marginally higher, but oddly enough, I think I'd be more receptive to pro-Barkley arguments, no idea why, lol).

[E-Balla]

I didn't have the time to contribute to the last thread but I was torn between Dirk and Moses so things worked out fine. My vote for 17 goes to Moses Malone. The man was the best player in basketball for a few solid years and while people say 79-83 was weak Dr. J and Kareem were still amazing guys and decent number 2 and 3 level guys. Moses was a matchup nightmare for bigs and in a playoff series I'd much rather have him instead of Karl. Also Moses is pretty underrated defensively in my mind and on that end he's at least as good as Karl.

[lorak]

What's the argument for Karl over Stockton? Because two main pro Karl's arguments are also John's strengths - insane longevity (19 seasons - just like Malone and actually more games played but less minutes) and even better box score production:

regular season
Malone 0.205 WS/48
Stockton 0.209 WS/48

playoffs
Malone 0.140 WS/48
Stockton 0.160 WS/48

So Malone has edge in longevity (because of more minutes), but Stockton is better according to box score and his advantage is even bigger in the playoffs.

We also know that late prime and 00s Malone depended on past prime Stockton as much as prime Amare depended on prime Nash, because similar number of Karl's baskets were assisted by Stockton:

Code: Select all

season   % asisted by Stockton      
1997   34,0      
1998   31,3      
1999   33,8      
2000   36,6      
2001   35,2      
2002   34,3      
2003   37,3   

Code: Select all

         
   season   % assisted by Nash   
   2005   32,9   
   2007   35,4   
   2008   39,5   
   2009   33,4   
   2010   39,3   

And of course there's also RAPM, three different studies and all of them say the same thing that Stockton > Malone:

accrossthecourt's data:

1998
Stockton 5.32 (7th overall)
Malone 5.31 (8th)

1999
Stockton 5.14 (11th)
Malone 4.58 (16th)

2000
Stockton 6.69 (7th)
Malone 4.61 (19th)

Engelmann's data:

2002
Stockton 2.0 (12th)
Malone -0.7 (269th)

2003
Stockton 2.6 (21st)
Malone 1.6 (57th)

'02-'11 (coaches included)
Stockton 1.8 (68th)
Malone -0.6 (326th)

'01-'14
Stockton 3.7 (40th)
Malone 0.8 (196th)

Winston's data:

'00-'09
Stockton 8.2 (8th)
Malone ? (not ranked in top 10)

[ShaqAttack3234]

I'm going with Barkley. Like I said in a previous thread. Moses was a better defender than Barkley, but not by enough for me to overlook the fact that both were offensive players, Barkley gave you the interior dominance, much of the rebounding, plus a passing game and far more versatility. It's close, though. Moses was truly dominant from '79-'83, and really owned the league in '82 and '83.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Not sure if I'm in the list yet, anyway to me it's Moses Malone.
He's the only guy left who was for some time clearly the best in the league.
He has the statistical dominance, he has a ring won as the best player, the personal accolades and the longevity.
He was probably limited in what he could do, otherwise he would have been picked much earlier, but he was maybe the best ever in what were his strengths, offensive rebounding and overpowering in the post.

Other candidates:
* Karl Malone: as discussed in the previous thread, not dominant enough offensively in the playoffs for me
* David Robinson: prime way to short, similar limitations Karl had but didn't have much help from the backcourt
* Charles Barkley: very dominant peak offensively, too much of a liability on defense playing PF
* Bob Pettit: in my view we should start discussing the guy, his career overlapped Russell's and Wilt's enough to make his numbers legit

[Destructor]

It's not. He is pretty disliked. A lot of nba specialist have him as the 2nd best pf... and here is beaten by garnett, dirk and maybe Barkley.
Anchor deffensive, better po performer, better peak... ignoring that karl was better than them more years that the ones they were better than him.

I don't think people dislike Karl. In the eyes of many, he's fallen behind just a few of the more recent PFs who've gained in years while having great primes/peaks themselves in Dirk and KG. If you feel he's the 2nd best PF, there's nothing wrong with that too.

It's like the Kobe hate.

They both have four-letter first names:

K-O-B-E
K-A-R-L

They both six-letter last names:

B-R-Y-A-N-T
M-A-L-O-N-E

And they both played for the Lakers.

Nah we don't hate Kobe. We just don't view him in the same light as Lakers fans do, and that's perfectly fine

[Jim Naismith]

Repost from prior thread...

MVP shares and RealGM Player of the Year shares are weighted thus:

1st place vote = 10
2nd place vote = 7
3rd place vote = 5
4th place vote = 3
5th place vote = 1

But, in the Olympics, would anyone really trade a gold medal for two bronzes?

Would anyone even trade a gold medal for two silvers?

What if we weighted the votes in a 6 : 2 : 1 : 0.6 : 0.4 ratio instead?

1st place vote = 6
2nd place vote = 2
3rd place vote = 1
4th place vote = 0.6
5th place vote = 0.4

How would some of the all-time RPoY Award Share totals look?
Here are some revised totals:

Jordan.....8.74
LeBron.....5.46
Duncan....4.77
Bird........4.45
Magic......4.24
Shaq.......4.13
Hakeem...2.84
Moses.....2.58
KG.........2.33
Kobe.......2.18
Karl........2.11
Wade......1.65
Dirk........1.54
Robinson..1.05
Gervin.....0.92
Walton.....0.91

[Reservoirdawgs]

Nah we don't hate Kobe. We just don't view him in the same light as Lakers fans do, and that's perfectly fine

I think ThaRegular was being facetious.

[rich316]

I think at #17, we've gone down a tier of player. I think at #1-16, we voted in the guys who are more or less bulletproof "if you got him, you are set with your #1 guy for a decade+" players. That's not to say that whoever comes next is terribly flawed, but that I do see a real difference in career quality from here on out.

Moses, Karl, Barkley, and Robinson are all right around the same level for me, so it's fitting that they are the group up for discussion. All of them have a fairly significant flaw - Moses and Barkley on defense, Barkley Moses, and Robinson in longevity, and Robinson and Karl in postseason play. By postseason play, I don't mean they shrank in the moment, but that their types of offensive games weren't necessarily ideal for leading championship offenses. Two of this group stand out over the rest, because he has an asset that the rest of them don't come close to matching. Robinson is one of the GOAT defenders in his short prime, and Karl Malone's prime play stretches FAR longer than any of the others. Because Karl was also a good defender, although not as elite as Robinson, and their postseason disappointments cancel out to an extent (and I think Karl's are more understandable/forgivable)...

I'm voting for Karl Malone at #17.

[penbeast0]

VOTING KARL MALONE

I was looking for reasons to have one of Moses, Karl, or DRob stand out from that trio. ThaRegul8r's defensive playoff numbers hurt the main reason I was leaning David Robinson; I'd always seen him just dominating defensively but if he loses that as well, his playoff failures start looking much worse. As for the Malone twins, Karl stayed at that peak level forever; Moses declined to a very good player as he moved around the league. In Washington, Milwaukee, etc., he just wasn't that dominant great we still have on the board here.

Nash isn't even in my top 3 guards left, I think Frazier, Wade, and even Stockton have a clear advantage though I am willing to listen to arguments about Nash's postseason play somehow elevating him over Stockton who was (IMO) the better player over their regular season careers. For that matter, I'd like to look into guys like Drexler, Payton, and maybe even Paul against Nash before drinking the Canadian Kool-Aid.

As for Barkley, he's basically Wilt but a foot shorter and with no defense. A dominant scorer, a great rebounder, sometimes a good passer though you couldn't rely on him to be focuses. His defensive lapses are well documented; I'd rate him below Nash defensively because with Nash, you at least got consistent effort. Barkley didn't bother half the time and when he did, he would get turned around, miss switches and signals, and generally disrupt the defensive unit cohesion. Then you add the drinking, the bad influence on young players (Jayson Williams's book documented a lot of this; Barkley's "autobiography" also said some about it, though he claims it misquotes him), the poor practice habits and you get a player whose numbers are a lot bigger than his actual value. He isn't close in value to Karl Malone, and right now I rank him behind Pettit and probably McHale just at the PF slot. Stats don't capture his problems enough.

[Reservoirdawgs]

Then you add the drinking, the bad influence on young players (Jayson Williams's book documented a lot of this; Barkley's "autobiography" also said some about it, though he claims it misquotes him)

Am I reading this right...he claims his AUTOBIOGRAPHY misquoted him ? Yup

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Then you add the drinking, the bad influence on young players (Jayson Williams's book documented a lot of this; Barkley's "autobiography" also said some about it, though he claims it misquotes him), the poor practice habits and you get a player whose numbers are a lot bigger than his actual value.

Years ago, in the mid-90s, a guy named Stefano Rusconi joined the Phoenix Suns and was the first italian to play in the NBA. His NBA legacy is not enormous, I don't think he'll be mentioned later in this project, but he was 27 yours old professional with relevant european experience.
According to him, arrived in his first day of training camp prepared to show himself when Barkley appeared.
A coach asked him gently if he was going to practice that week and basically he was sent to **** *** (auto censored) as Barkley went away.
What do you think is the impact of such an approach to the younger teammates? For what is worth, Rusca was quite in shock to see him get away with that...

[penbeast0]

The early voting results:

Karl Malone -- FJS, Doctor MJ, rich316, penbeast0
Moses Malone -- JordansBulls, Warspite
(I will be adding Jim Naismith and Ryoga Hibiki for the next thread as they are both active now)

Steve Nash -- colts18
Charles Barkley -- ShaqAttack

[Sasaki]

If we're discussing Nash here, I want to hear some analysis on Walt Frazier, given that he was voted above Nash last time around. Frazier, now that I think about it, is a bit of an odd choice, as he's never really discussed in the same avenue as other great point guards like Stockton, Payton, Kidd, etc. So, what is he like, and what's the argument for him over Nash?