The One And Only Offseason Thread 5: Dinnertime!

[kingstyyyle]

.

Even most Suns forums, in particular here in RealGM, I get that vibe… what vibe?
The vibe that most/some prefer a "white" star over a "black" or "non-white" star…
I feel that if there was 2 Lebron talent/production type players, 1 is white and 1 is black, exactly same attitude, exactly same manners etc… except their looks.
Most (some) here will make a preference and choose the "white" version… again, this is just the vibe I get here. It could be just be me, but its mainly the context of people's opinions and posts about players in the last 7-8 years since I've been here.

Phoenix is a "white" biased town, in my head anyways.

I actually felt like I saw the opposite of this with the Alex Len pick last year. We had the choice of Len or Noel, both had injury concerns, and we went with Len. It seemed to me that many would have preferred Noel because he passes the eyeball test in what you want with a center, being long, athletic, and a shot blocker. I think people felt like and still feel that Alex Len will just be another "big white stiff" center. With his injury concerns aside, I think his ceiling is higher than Noels, but some tend to overlook that because doesn't have the flashy moves.

big diffence IMO..
Len was "ho hum production, high ceiling" prospect.
Noel was "Elite production, high ceiling" prospect.

Had they both have the same scouting reports, same potential, same talent, same injury risk... basically exactly same projection/potential... but different looks, one white, one black.... what would be the popular pick for Suns fans here in RealGM?

A scrubby white guy vs an exciting atheltic black guy... even the most biased "white" player fan cannot hide his/her race preference by selecting the scrubby white guy... but equal everything else except race.... thats what I think will show exactly what I'm thinking...

I really don't see it to be honest. Love is probably the only white guy sense Nash that Suns fans pined for. The fans loved Bledsoe before the contract situation got messy. Who knows if Bledsoe felt uncomfortable in a city with a low African-American population and I'm not asking you to change your mind because you are entitled to your opinion but i just don't see it. There is arguably a larger Hispanic culture in Phoenix than white culture anyway.

[JTrain]

Will be interesting to see Len at the 4 a bit.

[kingstyyyle]

Also i literally LOLed when you called Len "white" then refereed to yourself as "Spanish"

[lilfishi22]

I was never that high on Len and I feel like he really needs to show serious strides this season to convince me he's a legit prospect. He has some flashes last season with his defense and hustle but overall, he did look mechanical and slow. A lot of that was due to injuries and that's fair enough, but I want him to show one aspect of his game that has a chance of being elite one day.

[Revived]

Personally I don't really care whether their white or black but I can sort of understand why some NBA fans order black players over white players on their team because historically and presently there are many more good black players than white. Hell I'd guess that at least 85% of the NBA is black.

[Revived]

You guys do realize tolliver is only getting paid 3 million for a reason. He isn't very good.

Some here are expecting way too much from him.

Tolliver is not going to replace fryes shooting. What some of you don't realize is that frye had an amazing quick release. Which is combined with his very high point of release on his shot. The high point of release was very hard to guard because of his size (6-11) combined with he quick release. These factors is what helped phx be successful.

A journeyman by the name of tolliver cannot and will not reproduce this affect. Tolliver is a good 3 inches shorter with a lower release point. Much easier to defend. Combine that with is awful defense. Some of you are going to be heart broken.


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You may be correct that Tolliver is a scrub but you have to realize that Frye was a huge scrub before coming to PHX also.

Frye was the lead water boy for the Blazers I believe.

[thamadkant]

Also i literally LOLed when you called Len "white" then refereed to yourself as "Spanish"

If you are referring to me...

I look like a Brazilian with Asian like eyes, As in brown skin.

Len is European but if no one knew that and described him only most will say Caucasian, which is "white"

In any case ive stated my opinion and observation all these years posting and reading posts here on RealGm.

[jcsunsfan]

I like Bledsoe a lot and I think he has star potential for a point guard. However, I have never heard of a team dominating the league and winning the title with a three headed monster point guard lineup like the Suns will have if they re-sign him. I just have not. I also do not consider the 80's Pistons a comparison because Thomas and Dumars are in an entirely different stratosphere than Dragic and Bledsoe. Therefore, I really only care about the Suns getting back something of quality for Bledsoe. The Suns have five guards that need to play besides Bledsoe in Dragic, Green, Thomas, Goodwin, and Ennis. Then they have three small forwards in Tucker, Warren, and Marcus. Their biggest weakness is power forward as they only have Markieff and Tolliver. They have their centers in Plumlee and Len. They own the rights to Bogdanovic and Alec Brown. They have multiple picks for next summer's draft.

I think the Suns will take a step forward next season regardless if Bledsoe is on the team or not. I really do. So why invest huge money to a player who has already had two knee surgeries and other injuries, especially at a position of strength on the team? No point. I am telling you, re-signing Bledsoe does not put the Suns in title contention. The league still belongs to the Spurs, Lebron's team, and Durant's team right now. Eric Bledsoe does not elevate the Suns to that tier. No way.

Goodwin and Ennis don't need to play.

[jcsunsfan]

Look, what I'm about to say may not go down well, but since we're all honest here, I will say it anyways.

What you are saying, even if the numbers arent exactly accurate, plays a big factor indeed.

Even most Suns forums, in particular here in RealGM, I get that vibe… what vibe?
The vibe that most/some prefer a "white" star over a "black" or "non-white" star…
I feel that if there was 2 Lebron talent/production type players, 1 is white and 1 is black, exactly same attitude, exactly same manners etc… except their looks.
Most (some) here will make a preference and choose the "white" version… again, this is just the vibe I get here. It could be just be me, but its mainly the context of people's opinions and posts about players in the last 7-8 years since I've been here.

Phoenix is a "white" biased town, in my head anyways.

I'm not white, nor black… I'm half spanish/half asian decent, so to me, in all honesty and by nature, I don’t care which one I choose of the above (black or white equal star).
But with that said, every time I play NBA 2K or NBA Live in the past or even Soccer games, or any type of games that allows me to create a character… I always create a "half-breed" looking character lol.
Or in NBA2K14's case, I made a white star player who happens to be an elite athlete and a black star player who happens to be a sharp shooter and relies on silky smooth game instead… just to be impartial and non-stereotype.

But to relate that to Bledsoe… maybe that’s how he sees Phoenix also…. its still doesn’t stop me from wanting to live there though. I would move there in a second.

I hope other stars dont think like Bledsoe, if it is indeed true that he doesnt want to live in Phoenix due to the lack of "black" people etc.

[/quote]

What a bunch of crap. The biggest prejudice of all is generalizing a whole city or message board with no basis in fact whatsoever. Go away.

Calling white people racists because they are white is just another form if racism. I see no such thing on this board.

[jcsunsfan]

.

Even most Suns forums, in particular here in RealGM, I get that vibe… what vibe?
The vibe that most/some prefer a "white" star over a "black" or "non-white" star…
I feel that if there was 2 Lebron talent/production type players, 1 is white and 1 is black, exactly same attitude, exactly same manners etc… except their looks.
Most (some) here will make a preference and choose the "white" version… again, this is just the vibe I get here. It could be just be me, but its mainly the context of people's opinions and posts about players in the last 7-8 years since I've been here.

Phoenix is a "white" biased town, in my head anyways.

I actually felt like I saw the opposite of this with the Alex Len pick last year. We had the choice of Len or Noel, both had injury concerns, and we went with Len. It seemed to me that many would have preferred Noel because he passes the eyeball test in what you want with a center, being long, athletic, and a shot blocker. I think people felt like and still feel that Alex Len will just be another "big white stiff" center. With his injury concerns aside, I think his ceiling is higher than Noels, but some tend to overlook that because doesn't have the flashy moves.

big diffence IMO..
Len was "ho hum production, high ceiling" prospect.
Noel was "Elite production, high ceiling" prospect.

Had they both have the same scouting reports, same potential, same talent, same injury risk... basically exactly same projection/potential... but different looks, one white, one black.... what would be the popular pick for Suns fans here in RealGM?

A scrubby white guy vs an exciting atheltic black guy... even the most biased "white" player fan cannot hide his/her race preference by selecting the scrubby white guy... but equal everything else except race.... thats what I think will show exactly what I'm thinking...

One was skinny as a rail with a knee made of mush. The other has a frame that can carry 40 more pounds of muscle.

Race had Nothing, nothing to do with that choice. Why sign Tolliver or IT. If when a white player is signed or traded for or drafted, it is assumed that race is the reason, that is in fact racism.

Look at the racist in the mirror this morning bud.

[Sunsdeuce]

Look, what I'm about to say may not go down well, but since we're all honest here, I will say it anyways.

What you are saying, even if the numbers arent exactly accurate, plays a big factor indeed.

Even most Suns forums, in particular here in RealGM, I get that vibe… what vibe?
The vibe that most/some prefer a "white" star over a "black" or "non-white" star…
I feel that if there was 2 Lebron talent/production type players, 1 is white and 1 is black, exactly same attitude, exactly same manners etc… except their looks.
Most (some) here will make a preference and choose the "white" version… again, this is just the vibe I get here. It could be just be me, but its mainly the context of people's opinions and posts about players in the last 7-8 years since I've been here.

Phoenix is a "white" biased town, in my head anyways.

I'm not white, nor black… I'm half spanish/half asian decent, so to me, in all honesty and by nature, I don’t care which one I choose of the above (black or white equal star).
But with that said, every time I play NBA 2K or NBA Live in the past or even Soccer games, or any type of games that allows me to create a character… I always create a "half-breed" looking character lol.
Or in NBA2K14's case, I made a white star player who happens to be an elite athlete and a black star player who happens to be a sharp shooter and relies on silky smooth game instead… just to be impartial and non-stereotype.

But to relate that to Bledsoe… maybe that’s how he sees Phoenix also…. its still doesn’t stop me from wanting to live there though. I would move there in a second.

I hope other stars dont think like Bledsoe, if it is indeed true that he doesnt want to live in Phoenix due to the lack of "black" people etc.

What a bunch of crap. The biggest prejudice of all is generalizing a whole city or message board with no basis in fact whatsoever. Go away.

Calling white people racists because they are white is just another form if racism. I see no such thing on this board.[/quote]
Agreed.

Just the fact he brings up a persons race for no reason than writes up a lengthy opinion on race, just shows he is racist. Would be much easier to just say he hates white people than writing a book on how phx is a white person city.

Who cares about a persons skin color! No one cares what color skin color is. Barkley could have been governor of phoenix/Arizona if he wanted to. Just shows skin color doesn't matter.

Look we get it, he hates white people. Let's move on. Discussion is done.

I'm here to talk about a sport. No football games are on and I analyzed the crap out of the cards-texans game. Now I want to talk about the suns.

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[Zelaznyrules]

What a bunch of crap. The biggest prejudice of all is generalizing a whole city or message board with no basis in fact whatsoever. Go away.

Calling white people racists because they are white is just another form if racism. I see no such thing on this board.

It's always a difficult subject to discuss but I didn't read his comments that way. IMO they were not racist, merely a racially oriented observation. We tend to gravitate towards those that look like us or think like us or are from the same area as us. It isn't just white people that do this and he acknowledged doing much the same himself. Right or wrong, it was just an observation not an accusation.

[Frank Lee]

You guys do realize tolliver is only getting paid 3 million for a reason. He isn't very good.

Some here are expecting way too much from him.

Tolliver is not going to replace fryes shooting. What some of you don't realize is that frye had an amazing quick release. Which is combined with his very high point of release on his shot. The high point of release was very hard to guard because of his size (6-11) combined with he quick release. These factors is what helped phx be successful.

A journeyman by the name of tolliver cannot and will not reproduce this affect. Tolliver is a good 3 inches shorter with a lower release point. Much easier to defend. Combine that with is awful defense. Some of you are going to be heart broken.


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Nice pics too Deucer.... but the bottom line is Tolliver makes a fair share of threes. You still have to cover this guy. Isn't that the point of a stretcher?

Also, he should be a an improvement on the D end, sure he is just 6'8" but he's 7'2" finger to finger. And if Tolliver is awful, then Frye must surely be GAWD Awful. I don't think you know as much about him as you think and its just another easy eye poke. I am not going to be disappointed until I am. I see zero downside in his acquisition, and expect him to give 15-20 minutes of solid rebounding, defense, and the occasional 3 to keep defenders honest. I doubt many here are expecting much more than that.

I'd would imagine he is stoked to be here and really is looking forward to an increased role.

[navysully]

Also i literally LOLed when you called Len "white" then refereed to yourself as "Spanish"

If you are referring to me...

I look like a Brazilian with Asian like eyes, As in brown skin.

Len is European but if no one knew that and described him only most will say Caucasian, which is "white"

In any case ive stated my opinion and observation all these years posting and reading posts here on RealGm.

What you are doing is called projection. You are projecting your biases on the rest of us. But just because you want it to be true to satisfy whatever need you have to label everyone else, doesn't make it true.

[Sunsdeuce]

I got what your saying. I'm just saying that tolliver isn't going to be able to reproduce fryes affect on the game. Tolliver most certainly will be able to hit a fair share of threes. My point is, the opposing team doesn't necessarily have to game plan around tolliver nearly as much as they had to as when frye was here.

You guys do realize tolliver is only getting paid 3 million for a reason. He isn't very good.

Some here are expecting way too much from him.

Tolliver is not going to replace fryes shooting. What some of you don't realize is that frye had an amazing quick release. Which is combined with his very high point of release on his shot. The high point of release was very hard to guard because of his size (6-11) combined with he quick release. These factors is what helped phx be successful.

A journeyman by the name of tolliver cannot and will not reproduce this affect. Tolliver is a good 3 inches shorter with a lower release point. Much easier to defend. Combine that with is awful defense. Some of you are going to be heart broken.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Nice pics too Deucer.... but the bottom line is Tolliver makes a fair share of threes. You still have to cover this guy. Isn't that the point of a stretcher?

Also, he should be a an improvement on the D end, sure he is just 6'8" but he's 7'2" finger to finger. And if Tolliver is awful, then Frye must surely be GAWD Awful. I don't think you know as much about him as you think and its just another easy eye poke. I am not going to be disappointed until I am. I see zero downside in his acquisition, and expect him to give 15-20 minutes of solid rebounding, defense, and the occasional 3 to keep defenders honest. I doubt many here are expecting much more than that.
I'd would imagine he is stoked to be here and really is looking forward to an increased role.

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[King4Day]

Regarding the race comments, you probably burned some bridges with what was said. Unnecessary and opinions that don't need discussing. There will be some awkward discussions going forward. Oh and once again, this isn't the forum or thread for it...

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[King4Day]

Back on topic, if Bledsoe does take the qualifying, assuming we don't trade him, how long before we reduce his minutes in favor or ennis, Goodwin, and maybe Warren?
He knows we are the only team, then or now, who can offer him 5 years, so unless he really wants out of phoenix, he's on a slippery slope.

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[Frank Lee]

Look, what I'm about to say may not go down well, but since we're all honest here, I will say it anyways.....

at least you lit the fuse before you dropped the bomb...

but I am going to agree with you. Not so much the 'vibe part' but more so with what SunsFan said.

The demographic discussion, the perceived weirdly/mildly racist wacko righty populace in AZ... yes you 'Zonies', the rest of the country just get the skewed view of you. And the lunacy jumps from headline to headline. Going back to the MLKing day crap, Fife Smyington, The Brewer battle with Obama, CrazyAss McCain, Sherrif Joe.... its easy for an outsider to be leery of that hot desert sun. It DOES SOMETHING to people.

Furthermore, it seems the Suns have always sought good white guys to fit their blue haired 'good white guy' season ticket fan base. I don't know what it is like now, but quite a few moons ago when I went to 30+ games per, the fan base/average age seemed like it was 60 and it mirrored AZ's natural demographics. The Madhouse was anything but mad and probably closer to senile on some nights. Shoot, they used to have a live dixieland band playing every home game (the Desert City 6... Could there be anything 'Whiter'?) But hey, is there anything wrong with that? Somewhat catering to your fan base? Colonjello knew what he was doing.

Westphal, Buse, Adams, Cook, Awtrey, Kramer, Robey, Bratz, Erickson, Riley (yes, Pat once was a Sun) I recall on more than one occasion when we'd have 5 pasties on the court.... you could see the crowd slowly realizing it...."1...2...3....4... CALL A TIME OUT MacLEOD" ... heck, sometimes I think he was counting too. The 'good white guy' syndrome was evident....And the points made in the recent posts above about AZ/Phnx being a non minority destination have validity. At least likely in the eyes of players. You guys in AZ can't shake the label as long as the press keeps being fed tasty topics of racial tension.

As far as the obvious Racially charged up responses here.... just deal with it. Its gets very tiring when a simple discussion gets labeled as offensively racial. Am I prejudiced ? Sure, at people who are constantly playing Race Cop. We live in an overly sensitive environment now. Open discussion is needed, and without the 'Racist Tag' placed on every contributor.


sssssssss........ BOOM

PS...

There will be some awkward discussions going forward. Oh and once again, this isn't the forum or thread for it...

Why not ? we have little to talk about now, and this seems like as good of a reason why Bledsoak is balking as any

[aIvin adams]

As far as the obvious Racially charged up responses here.... just deal with it. Its gets very tiring when a simple discussion gets labeled as offensively racial. Am I prejudiced ? Sure, at people who are constantly playing Race Cop. We live in an overly sensitive environment now. Open discussion is needed, and without the 'Racist Tag' placed on every contributor.


sssssssss........ BOOM

PS...

There will be some awkward discussions going forward. Oh and once again, this isn't the forum or thread for it...

Why not ? we have little to talk about now, and this seems like as good of a reason why Bledsoak is balking as any

Lets listen to this old-timer.

Like how orientals do.

JK, jk, relax... I'm a lil racist but I'm getting better at hiding it..

[Sreister]

Here is why tolliver is not going to be as effective as frye in our system. Pay close attention to the release.

Fryes shoot was high and quick. Notice the height and how the ball is away from the defender. Also the ball is away from his body during the shooting motion. Also notice the off hand is on the side of the ball. This allows for quicker shot preparation. Thus quicker release. Very difficult to defend.


Now tolliver has a shot that comes out from his body. His shot release is closer to the ground. His off hand is in front of the ball. This means more time in the preparation of the shot. Much easier to guard. If the defender is committed, it is not a difficult shot to guard.


This is what stats don't tell you. This is why game film is more important than stats.

I don't know Tollivers shot really, but they are in completely different parts of their shot there. Frye is about to release and Tolliver is just finishing his backward motion. Like I said, it does look like his shot is less effective, but your pictures are not a good indication of that.