The One And Only Offseason Thread 5: Dinnertime!

[Scutt]

Clear? Dude, you don't know what the heck you are talking about. If players aren't ready, they aren't going to play much, if at all. It has nothing to do with anyone's desire to play youth or to sit youth. Jeff will play the guys that earn it, and are ready. It is as simple as that.

Using the development league to develop players sounds logical, right?

I was responding to jcsunsfan who said "Goodwin doesn't need to play", so it does have everything to do with his desire to see youth like Goodwin sit on the bench. My guess is Jeff Hornacek will play the players that give us the best shot at making the playoffs because that is the goal of our front office. Goodwin has already proven he deserves at least some minutes in the rotation. He averaged 8 minutes a game last year, you think that should go down because we are trying to make the playoffs again? That is not looking toward the future at all.

As far as your d- league comment, when the player is clearly above d-league talent, sending him there is not logical. Goodwin averaged like 25 points a game down there, what good is it going to do for him to spend all season there again? Going against inferior talent night after night isn't going to help him, he needs to go against NBA caliber guys.

It's not about seeing youth in the bench it more about WHICH youth deserves the pt. Warren outplayed Archie in summer league. In fact Archie regressed this year. IT is also young and deserves playing time. I can't imagine cutting Green's pt in favor of Archie after his production last year. Archie has to earn it and he hasn't.

Did I miss something? Last time I checked, Warren is a small forward and Goodwin is a shooting guard. How is Warren going to take Archie's playing time? Is he a guard now? Is there only room for one young guy on the team, regardless of position? I do agree that it will be hard for Goodwin to get burn over Green and IT, but that is not justification to say he doesn't deserve to play at all.

EDIT: My bad, I forgot Green will get some time at the 3, and if Warren does well, he could take some of Archies minutes that way. You are correct on that, but I don't think Hornacek will give Warren much burn as a rookie...

[lilfishi22]

Scorched, do you know what the sample size is for each player? I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but I am guessing Frye took a ton more shots than Tolliver. If Tolliver could maintain those numbers over a much larger sample set then the Suns got themselves another steal.

247 vs 432 3PA

247 is a good enough sample size though

[Cutter]

Scorched, do you know what the sample size is for each player? I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but I am guessing Frye took a ton more shots than Tolliver. If Tolliver could maintain those numbers over a much larger sample set then the Suns got themselves another steal.

247 vs 432 3PA

247 is a good enough sample size though

thanks, volume wise Tolliver is a lot closer to Frye than I thought. Suns have a shooters system, and I don't see any way Tolliver gets worse in our system. Him and Kieff might be able to completely negate the impact of Frye leaving.

[RunDogGun]

Clear? Dude, you don't know what the heck you are talking about. If players aren't ready, they aren't going to play much, if at all. It has nothing to do with anyone's desire to play youth or to sit youth. Jeff will play the guys that earn it, and are ready. It is as simple as that.

Using the development league to develop players sounds logical, right?

I was responding to jcsunsfan who said "Goodwin doesn't need to play", so it does have everything to do with his desire to see youth like Goodwin sit on the bench. My guess is Jeff Hornacek will play the players that give us the best shot at making the playoffs because that is the goal of our front office. Goodwin has already proven he deserves at least some minutes in the rotation. He averaged 8 minutes a game last year, you think that should go down because we are trying to make the playoffs again? That is not looking toward the future at all.

As far as your d- league comment, when the player is clearly above d-league talent, sending him there is not logical. Goodwin averaged like 25 points a game down there, what good is it going to do for him to spend all season there again? Going against inferior talent night after night isn't going to help him, he needs to go against NBA caliber guys.

How is it not looking toward the future? Just because we don't play a young guy that sometimes can score points? I don't know if you are aware of this, but basketball is more than just scoring points. So how many shots did it take Goodwin to get those 25 so called points per game? How many games did he play in the D-League? Is that a large enough sample size to determine he is way better than other DLers? Or are you once again lacking research, and talking out of your arse?

After watching the SL games, I don't see why Jeff give Goodwin any minutes unless they are garbage or if there are injury and/or foul troubles. Goodwin looked completely lost out there and drove the hoop like a bull in a china shop. If it wasn't for the refs bailing him out, shooting 6-15 doesn't seem like he has gotten better at all. He moves ok without the ball, and he is ok on defense, but overall I don't see him better than Green or IT.

And will stop with this "try to make the playoffs" crap. That is what legit teams do, they try and make the post season, so they have a chance at the finals. Go watch wrestling.

[Scutt]

Archie Goodwin is not better than Green or IT, but he has the potential to be especially on the defensive end. I know basketball is more then scoring points, and that is one of the reasons I like Goodwin more so than TJ Warren. He has the tools to become an excellent defender. I am not trying to argue that he should beat those two out for minutes, but I strongly believe he has a place on this Suns team. This whole argument started because someone said Goodwin doesn't deserve to play AT ALL. I disagree with that. I know many on here are not as high on Archie as me, but one bad summer performance shouldn't should cause him to lose all his playing time. That is all I am saying.

[RunDogGun]

Archie Goodwin is not better than Green or IT. I am not trying to argue that or say he should beat those two out for minutes, but I strongly believe he has a place on this Suns team. This whole argument started because someone said Goodwin doesn't deserve to play AT ALL. I disagree with that. I know many on here are not as high on Archie as me, but one bad summer performance shouldn't should cause him to lose all his playing time. That is all I am saying.

He does have a place on the team, we haven't cut him. His place is at the far end of the bench until he has learned enough fundamentals to beat out other rotational players. But I feel that he would be better served learning those fundamentals playing in the DLeague.

And back another one of your points. Warren gets Goodwin's minutes because Green won't use his minutes at the three, like he did last year.

Now we all hoped Goodwin would be the next Jordan, but he just hasn't seemed to learn enough fast enough. He probably should have stayed in college another year or two, and really learned the game of basketball before coming to the NBA.

I think that is the biggest problem with one and done college players, too many of them don't have enough fundamentals.

[Scutt]

And will stop with this "try to make the playoffs" crap. That is what legit teams do, they try and make the post season, so they have a chance at the finals. Go watch wrestling.

Danny Ferry, the Hawks GM : “We’re not focused on trying to be the eighth seed in the playoffs because that’s not our goal.” “We’re trying to build something that’s good, sustainable and the components are in place for us to do so.” He said this and the Hawks still ended up as the 8th seed.

Some GM's understand that building a good solid foundation for the future is better than being an 8th seed if you don't have the pieces to build off that and move up in the playoffs. I am sorry you don't agree, but please don't try and act like I am alone in my thinking.

The Suns overachieved last year, with Dragic, Bledsoe, Plumlee, Green, and Tucker all having career years. Yet they still couldn't make the playoffs. Is everyone going to have career years again? Keep in mind there are 8 teams ahead of us that made moves to improve, what kind of ceiling do you see this Suns team having?

[RunDogGun]

And will stop with this "try to make the playoffs" crap. That is what legit teams do, they try and make the post season, so they have a chance at the finals. Go watch wrestling.

Danny Ferry, the Hawks GM : “We’re not focused on trying to be the eighth seed in the playoffs because that’s not our goal.” “We’re trying to build something that’s good, sustainable and the components are in place for us to do so.”

Some GM's understand that building a good solid foundation for the future is better than being an 8th seed. I am sorry you don't agree, but please don't try and act like I am alone in my thinking.

You are aware that the Hawks made the playoffs last year, were the eighth seed, and took Indiana to seven games, right? You aren't alone in your thinking, other children think the same way.

[RunDogGun]

Moreover, Atl's rookie D Schroder(17th pick) played less games than Archie (49-52 respectfully) and only three more minutes per game than Archie. Dennis played six games in the DLeague averaging 17/4.2/6.7. While Archie played only five games in the DLeague 26/5.2/1.2

So Ferry's comments don't mean what you think they mean.

[Scutt]

I am well aware of them making the playoffs, that doesn't mean Danny Ferry didn't mean what he said. I bet he doesn't want to be the 8th seed again this year, but they might end up there. Do you really believe Atlanta had ANY chance of making the finals last year? All that 1st round exit did was give them a worse draft pick and a few extra bucks in the owners pockets.

[RunDogGun]

I am well aware of that fact, that doesn't mean Danny Ferry didn't mean what he said. I bet he doesn't want to be the 8th seed again this year, but they might end up there. Do you really believe Atlanta had ANY chance of making the finals last year? All that 1st round exit did was give them a worse draft pick and a few extra bucks in the owners pockets.

No, that is not all it did, and it is sad that you don't understand that. making the playoffs, and taking the number one seed to seven games, gives experience to their young guys and team.
You seem to think that the draft is a perfect system that always guarantees good players at the draft position. And if you think that, you wouldn't be pushing for Goodwin to get minutes, for he was the 29th pick, that no team would want to be choosing at.

[Scutt]

You aren't alone in your thinking, other children think the same way.

"I am a child, I'll last a while. You can't conceive of the pleasure in my smile."

[RunDogGun]

Also Ferry never says his goal isn't to make the playoffs, just that their goal isn't to be an eighth seed. I don't think any team has that goal. The comments are so vague, and you filling in what he thinks, is scary.

[RunDogGun]

You aren't alone in your thinking, other children think the same way.

"I am a child, I'll last a while. You can't conceive of the pleasure in my smile."

Not all children last a while. Many children parish because of their stupidity.

[Scutt]

I am well aware of that fact, that doesn't mean Danny Ferry didn't mean what he said. I bet he doesn't want to be the 8th seed again this year, but they might end up there. Do you really believe Atlanta had ANY chance of making the finals last year? All that 1st round exit did was give them a worse draft pick and a few extra bucks in the owners pockets.

No, that is not all it did, and it is sad that you don't understand that. making the playoffs, and taking the number one seed to seven games, gives experience to their young guys and team.
You seem to think that the draft is a perfect system that always guarantees good players at the draft position. And if you think that, you wouldn't be pushing for Goodwin to get minutes, for he was the 29th pick, that no team would want to be choosing at.

I agree with you 100% on that for certain teams, i.e. teams that have a lot of young talent with the potential to learn and grow. For example, the 8th seed would be a great learning experience for Anthony Davis and the pelicans young pieces. Now granted I am not super familiar with the Hawks, but I don't think the Hawks fit that bill. They don't have that many young talented guys, most of their "core" is in their primes. They, like the Suns, need a young star and I would take my chances in the draft over trying to make that last playoff spot year after year.

[RunDogGun]

I am well aware of that fact, that doesn't mean Danny Ferry didn't mean what he said. I bet he doesn't want to be the 8th seed again this year, but they might end up there. Do you really believe Atlanta had ANY chance of making the finals last year? All that 1st round exit did was give them a worse draft pick and a few extra bucks in the owners pockets.

No, that is not all it did, and it is sad that you don't understand that. making the playoffs, and taking the number one seed to seven games, gives experience to their young guys and team.
You seem to think that the draft is a perfect system that always guarantees good players at the draft position. And if you think that, you wouldn't be pushing for Goodwin to get minutes, for he was the 29th pick, that no team would want to be choosing at.

I agree with you 100% on that for certain teams, i.e. teams that have a lot of young talent with the potential to learn and grow. Now granted I am not super familiar with the Hawks, but I don't think the Hawks fit that bill. They don't have that many young talented guys, most of their "core" is in their primes. They, like the Suns, need a young star and I would take my chances in the draft over trying to make that last playoff spot year after year.

You don't have that control, nor does any GM, and with the league wanting to change the drafting system, it will be even harder to "try" and do what you are thinking.

Above all, creating a losing culture will create losers. Wasting one to three years of your rookies time in the NBA trying to do what you are thinking will just increase the odds that your "star" rookie will leave you for another team. The naivety of your thoughts on this is amazing. There is so much luck involved in the draft, relying on it is next to impossible.

As for only young players benefit from making the playoffs... why? So you don't think Korver, Milsap, and other vet players got anything from taking the number one seed to seven games? Did you ask them? Everyone on the team, including the coaches benefit from seven playoff games.

Back to Atl, if they were thinking like you, wouldn't have Schoder played more games than Archie, and less games in the DLeague? He was drafted twelve places higher.

[Moochthemonkey]

I was thinking about a guy who was one of the best rim protectors and offensive rebounders last year. A guy who would fit this current Suns team like a glove: Robin Lopez. Lets not forget that we traded away Goran Dragic too...

Grasping for straws here. Dragic is one player, it was a questionable trade at the time and "giving up" on one player does not constitute a habit. Plus, Those players were given plenty of minutes and a chance to develop for sure. Robin Lopez wanted to be a starter elsewhere...besides he was thoroughly under-performing his last two years in Phoenix- I don't remember anyone here who was upset trading his ass for a 1st round pick + Wes Johnson + dumping Warrick's contract. I cannot read your mind obviously, but perhaps you are citing Lopez's decent play this year to strengthen an argument that has mostly merit in hindsight.

[Scutt]

We gave up on a young guard in Goran, who torched the Spurs in the playoffs a year before because we were desperate to get Nash into that last playoff spot. That was short sighted and there were a number of fans who were upset about it at the time. Rolo only wanted to be a starter for another team because our team gave up on him and chose to go with Gortat, again in a bid to get Nash into the playoffs. There was a time when Rolo was our "future center". I for one was pissed that we chose Gortat over him, but I will admit I was in the minority on that one. It is not just players, it is draft picks too. This team has a habit of focusing on the present, while not thinking about the future. That is my opinion and how I see it.

[lilfishi22]

I was thinking about a guy who was one of the best rim protectors and offensive rebounders last year. A guy who would fit this current Suns team like a glove: Robin Lopez. Lets not forget that we traded away Goran Dragic too...

Grasping for straws here. Dragic is one player, it was a questionable trade at the time and "giving up" on one player does not constitute a habit. Plus, Those players were given plenty of minutes and a chance to develop for sure. Robin Lopez wanted to be a starter elsewhere...besides he was thoroughly under-performing his last two years in Phoenix- I don't remember anyone here who was upset trading his ass for a 1st round pick + Wes Johnson + dumping Warrick's contract. I cannot read your mind obviously, but perhaps you are citing Lopez's decent play this year to strengthen an argument that has mostly merit in hindsight.

The Dragic trade was probably the worst since KT + 2 firsts. Dragic had a down year but I still had confidence in him. In retrospect, we traded in a developing prospect for a "sure thing" which totally backfired and I'm sure McD won't make the same mistake.

[JTrain]

Clear? Dude, you don't know what the heck you are talking about. If players aren't ready, they aren't going to play much, if at all. It has nothing to do with anyone's desire to play youth or to sit youth. Jeff will play the guys that earn it, and are ready. It is as simple as that.

Using the development league to develop players sounds logical, right?

I was responding to jcsunsfan who said "Goodwin doesn't need to play", so it does have everything to do with his desire to see youth like Goodwin sit on the bench. My guess is Jeff Hornacek will play the players that give us the best shot at making the playoffs because that is the goal of our front office. Goodwin has already proven he deserves at least some minutes in the rotation. He averaged 8 minutes a game last year, you think that should go down because we are trying to make the playoffs again? That is not looking toward the future at all.

You seem to be mixing two separate lines of argument. On one hand, you argue that Archie deserves to play based on his merits. On the other hand, you argue that the FO should switch to a philosophy of developing younger players, even at the expense of the playoffs.

So which is it? Should Archie get more minutes because he deserves more based on his ability, work ethic, etc. or should Archie get more minutes because he is young and needs to be developed for Phoenix to build a future contender?