Jazzfan1971 and FloppyMoose's Offseason Preview - 76ers

[BullyKing]

If you agree with strategy but point out the risks, I'm fine with that. I'm aware of the risks. It's just the disagreement with the strategy while providing no viable alternatives is what bothers me.

But yeah, that's a risk. Not winning soon enough so that the players have no desire to stay (and other players not wanting to join the team, either). But it's an inherent risk involved with this strategy. I think that if the strategy goes as planned, it won't be a problem. In other words, MCW shows improvement in 14-15, Noel shows why he was rated so highly, Embiid does the same in 2015-16 (along with our high 2015 lotto pick), Saric comes over in 2016, and then by 2016-2017, before Noel and MCW become FAs in the summer of 2017, we're looking like a team with a lot less question marks and much more evidence of a strong future, a team that the players will want to stick with. I think that's the plan.
If the plan doesn't work out, I don't think it will be because a winning culture wasn't established soon enough, or any of that stuff. I think it will simply be because the guys we drafted weren't that good. That, or injuries.

I might have said the same before watching Presti establish a winning culture in OKC and examining what the Spurs have done in greater detail. Now I think the culture and how you invest in development is more important than where you draft.

The injuries are another interesting slant for the Sixers. I recognize that teams rely on their medical staffs for information in this area, but I can't help but wonder what else goes into the risk analysis. Part of what makes the draft such a good vehicle is having drafted players for 4 years at a low market rate where you can really develop them within your system. For Noel and Embiid if you only get 3 years of playing and development on rookie scale contracts, the value is lessened.

Players want to win and be respected for winning. If you don't give them an environment where they see the whole organization working toward that goal, I'm not sure the development is as successful.

What are you suggesting should've been done differently up until this point?
Like I said, if the collective group of talent that we draft is as good as we anticipate, then they will gradually establish that winning culture as a group and it will grow from there.

Don't bother. He throws up OKC as the example as if they didn't to get Durant and a couple years thereafter. I think you develop a losing culture by being a directionless middle dweller without a long term plan. That is what the Knicks or Pistons have become (though in fairness they both have new organizations now). Just using cap space whenever you have it on whatever you can spend it on. Everyone but Thad has been overwhelming positive about understanding the plan and being excited to be a part of it.

[majortom71]

So are you on the Noel for ROTY bandwagon with me?

I wouldn't be surprised if he is the best rookie. But I'll be surprised if he wins the award because I don't expect him to score a ton this year.

This statement makes no sense either. If you wouldn't be surprised if he was the best rookie, how could you then be surprised if he's ROY? Look up the word contradiction, because that's exactly what that is.

ROY does not always mean best rookie, I think it's mostly based on stats and mostly favors offensive stats from what I've seen. A lot of intangibles are not really measured here.

Noel will most likely make his impact on defense, but if J. Parker has a higher ppg he may be favored for ROY even though Noel makes the most overall impact on the court. So in that regards ROY may not always be best rookie.

[HartfordWhalers]

I might have said the same before watching Presti establish a winning culture in OKC and examining what the Spurs have done in greater detail. Now I think the culture and how you invest in development is more important than where you draft.

The injuries are another interesting slant for the Sixers. I recognize that teams rely on their medical staffs for information in this area, but I can't help but wonder what else goes into the risk analysis. Part of what makes the draft such a good vehicle is having drafted players for 4 years at a low market rate where you can really develop them within your system. For Noel and Embiid if you only get 3 years of playing and development on rookie scale contracts, the value is lessened.

Players want to win and be respected for winning. If you don't give them an environment where they see the whole organization working toward that goal, I'm not sure the development is as successful.

What are you suggesting should've been done differently up until this point?
Like I said, if the collective group of talent that we draft is as good as we anticipate, then they will gradually establish that winning culture as a group and it will grow from there.

Don't bother. He throws up OKC as the example as if they didn't to get Durant and a couple years thereafter. I think you develop a losing culture by being a directionless middle dweller without a long term plan. That is what the Knicks or Pistons have become (though in fairness they both have new organizations now). Just using cap space whenever you have it on whatever you can spend it on. Everyone but Thad has been overwhelming positive about understanding the plan and being excited to be a part of it.

Okc traded their vets for picks, and stunk for 2 straight years. It is a great example. What matters is what you do year 3-4, you can be horrific for 2 years and still get tons of credit for having that culture...

[BullyKing]

What are you suggesting should've been done differently up until this point?
Like I said, if the collective group of talent that we draft is as good as we anticipate, then they will gradually establish that winning culture as a group and it will grow from there.

Don't bother. He throws up OKC as the example as if they didn't to get Durant and a couple years thereafter. I think you develop a losing culture by being a directionless middle dweller without a long term plan. That is what the Knicks or Pistons have become (though in fairness they both have new organizations now). Just using cap space whenever you have it on whatever you can spend it on. Everyone but Thad has been overwhelming positive about understanding the plan and being excited to be a part of it.

Okc traded their vets for picks, and stunk for 2 straight years. It is a great example. What matters is what you do year 3-4, you can be horrific for 2 years and still get tons of credit for having that culture...

Well yeah that was my point. He says that OKC is a good example because they loaded up on high picks and invested heavily in player development as though this is different than what the Sixers are trying to accomplish.

[sonictecture]

I think the differences are in the small details. I don't have a problem with using the draft or accumulating assets. The differences are that OKC also paid attention to keeping good guy veterans on the squad to help mentor the young players, teach them how to be professionals, show them how hard you have to work, etc. Presti avoided players with injury histories in the draft.

Seattle didn't intentionally tank when they landed Durant. This was a team that had far exceeded expectations the year before and missed the playoffs the following year when Ray Allen injured his ankle. Seattle was not one of the top 5 worst teams that year, they simply got lucky in the lottery.

[76ciology]

Are the players working hard to improve for their next contract or because they love the game and want to compete?

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2015553-3-most-improved-players-for-the-philadelphia-76ers-this-season


Spencer Hawes, Thaddeus Young and Evan Turner had their best days playing for the Sixers last season. At some point last season when the team was able to beat the top teams like the Heat, Rockets, Bulls (with Drose) and the Cavs?

Hawes averaged 15/10/2..
http://www.thesixerscave.com/2013/11/25/the-new-and-improved-spencer-hawes/

Evan turner averaged 20/7/4
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/pattisonave/drives-evan-turner-key.html

Thaddeus Young

Young reinserted the three-point shot into his repertoire this season. His 258 three-point attempts are a career high. He had a combined 34 attempts in the last three seasons. He's been far more aggressive on the offensive side of the ball, already attempting 200 more field goals this season than he did all of last year.

Even with his usage numbers up higher than ever before, he’s still managed to keep his true shooting percentage at .519, hovering around his career average of .541.

All of this lends itself to more scoring opportunities, obviously. Young is averaging a career high of 18.1 points per game—up from his career average of 13.7.

And MCW, the guy who was said to be TO prone, can't create, doesn't have advanced ball handling and can't shoot. Averaged 17ppg 7rpg 7apg and almost 2spg.

Tony Wroten went from being a 2ppg player to a 13ppg player
http://www.sheridanhoops.com/2013/12/20/tony-wrotens-journey-from-benched-rookie-to-most-improved-player-candidate/

Hollis Thompson
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sports/sixers/76ers-film-review-Inventing-Hollis-Thompson.html

Henry Sims
http://www.libertyballers.com/features/2014/4/6/5585814/henry-sims-sixers-greg-foster-al-jefferson

Even Nerlens Noel has been 100% healthy with improved shooting mechanics and higher vertical leap.
http://www.libertyballers.com/2014/4/9/5596076/nerlens-noel-injury-sixers-return-76ers

The whole Sixers rebuilding program is focused on player improvement.
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/64381/philadelphias-victory-lab

Who is teaching the young players beyond the coaching staff?

Jason Richardson and Thad. Both are known being good leaders and locker room presence. Since you state "is", I guess we are oversupplied in this aspect.

Do the players feel a vital part of their communities?

Sixers' players have shown great support for the franchise.

We saw MCW participating in draft night, despite the fact that he might be traded.

Thad was seen in the Sixers bench during the summer league to give guidance to the young guys.

Noel was even part of the recruitment team for Wiggins when he visited the team. Noel also acts like a big brother giving advice to Embiid while recovering from his injury.

It's not enough just to draft well any longer, you have to go beyond that build a sustainable success

Sam Hinkie during his post draft press conference went on to say that he receives calls from agents that they want to play for the Sixers because of the winning environment and a good place for player development the sixers have.
http://www.nba.com/sixers/sam-hinkie-post-draft-press-conference#
Hinkie talked about how agents of the rookies wanted their players to play with the team.
2:10-3:10

Winning culture. Do you know that Sixers fought harder than a much talented team like the Magic or the Bucks? And it showed with their record last season. Sixers had a better record than the Bucks and only 5 less loss record than the Magic.

Hell, Sixers even beat really good team like the Heat twice (home opener and season ender), Rockets, Blazers and the Rose lead Bulls. And a handful of close games like the Celtics, Cavs and the Nets game.

If the team fought hard to win games, despite their lack of talent that shows on their record and was able to beat really good teams.

If the players supports the franchise in every step by participating and supports their events and moves.

If every player had this thirst for development by being in their best shape and tweaking their games.

If the team continues to learn how to close out games by winning close games against good teams.

If the young players are guided by good vets like Thad and Jrich (hell they can sign dime a dozen vet or dr.phil for minimum to guide these kids). If the franchise doesn't tolerate poor habits like attitude problems like poor work ethic and poor off court attitude problems....

Can you still say that the Sixers is a poor environment for the young players?

The thing that people should realize is that, Sixers didn't "tank" because they didn't give effort and just really are playing to lose games. Sixers "tank" because the team want to maintain cap flexibility (you should have known that being a thunders fan), didn't want to overpay mediocre players and want to ensure Noel and Embiid will most likely have good career by not rushing them and letting them recover, correct and strengthen.

Sixers knows this "winning environment" thing more than the casual fans. They aren't building this team like these perennial losing franchises with poor player development environment, don't work hard to win games and questionable character players. Brett Brown knows that by being under Pop's tutelage for years. Hinkie with his experience with the Rockets.

The team is all about internal and external growth, flexibility and maximizing assets. This is the fastest way and the lowest possibility for failure way in rebuilding.

I guarantee you, we will have enough talent to make the play-offs and maybe even compete in year 3 of our rebuilding.

[AussieCeltic]

I wouldn't be surprised if he is the best rookie. But I'll be surprised if he wins the award because I don't expect him to score a ton this year.

This statement makes no sense either. If you wouldn't be surprised if he was the best rookie, how could you then be surprised if he's ROY? Look up the word contradiction, because that's exactly what that is.

ROY does not always mean best rookie, I think it's mostly based on stats and mostly favors offensive stats from what I've seen. A lot of intangibles are not really measured here.

Noel will most likely make his impact on defense, but if J. Parker has a higher ppg he may be favored for ROY even though Noel makes the most overall impact on the court. So in that regards ROY may not always be best rookie.

I understand the premise of the argument that he may have the best impact and not win, but how could you be surprised if he's the best rookie and did win.

[AussieCeltic]

I think the differences are in the small details. I don't have a problem with using the draft or accumulating assets. The differences are that OKC also paid attention to keeping good guy veterans on the squad to help mentor the young players, teach them how to be professionals, show them how hard you have to work, etc. Presti avoided players with injury histories in the draft.

Seattle didn't intentionally tank when they landed Durant. This was a team that had far exceeded expectations the year before and missed the playoffs the following year when Ray Allen injured his ankle. Seattle was not one of the top 5 worst teams that year, they simply got lucky in the lottery.

The Sixers are heading into year 2 of their rebuild. They have Jason Richardson and Thad Young as vets. In the Sonics/Thunder rebuild, their vets in the first 2 years were Donyell Marshall & Francisco Elson. Joe Smith & Malik Rose joined in year 3 and then Kevin Ollie was the sole Vet in year 4.

Obviously they had solid role players like Collison and Ridnour, but those guys were only 3-4 years into their careers at that point and hardly veterans.

I remember those Sonic/Thunder teams facing the same type of scrutiny this Sixers team is. Obviously no one can be sure the Sixers will be as successful, but looking at their roster, they have some great pieces moving forward and I think in 3 years we'll look back and say Hinkie did a great job.

[BullyKing]

The other thing that doesn't make sense about this vets to teach people the right way nonsense is that the Sixers traded Hawes and Turner. I wouldn't exactly call either of those guys shining examples of how I want the young players to play the game. Hawes' interest in defense is fleeting to say the least. Turner is allergic to ball movement who is under some ridiculous belief that is one of the elite wing players in the league. I'm ok with them not being around to pass those traits on to the younger players.

[QRich3]

The hard thing about rebuilding this way is the point where you're done tanking and you need to start winning. In Presti's case, it was their first 50 win season, when they took the champions to 6 games in the first round, and it was built mostly on Westbrook emergence as a future allstar and Harden and Ibaka appearence as good role players with potential to be much more than that. As well as Durant entering top 10 status, of course. They also had some of those "young veteran guys" in Krstic and Sefolosha who were really important to them, and they just signed some of those "veteran teachers" in Kevin Ollie and Ethan Thomas.

I'm very curious to see how Hinkie approaches roster building when it gets to that point, it's pretty easy to just trade all your veterans for the best future assets you can get, and draft the highest upside possible guys. I wanna see how he does when he actually has to evaluate middle of the road players to round up the roster, the Krstic/Ollie/Sefolosha type. Of course he'll look like a genius if all of his draft picks pan out to the highest possible ceiling, but odds are at least half of them won't, and we'll see how good he really is when he no longer can sell hope and has to actually get guys to get results now.

You should spend most of his minutes in playing McDaniels and Grant, who seem to have good potential to be solid rotation pieces, instead of him.

Yeah, let's bench a 40% 3 point shooter who provides valuable floor spacing for a guy in Jerami Grant who is a massive liability on that end of the floor. That makes sense.

And by the way, Tony Wroten is not a 2 guard nor has he ever shown any ability to play that position.

I gave up when outside shooting wasn't what the team wanted from a swing spot, leats of all when he said he should be out of the league. Just don't expect anything worth discussing at that point.

Nice way to spin what I said into "shooting is useless". All I'm saying is you can't hold on to "he once shot 40% from three" if that's the only quality that you see in him. Anthony Morrow has always been a better shooter than Hollis will ever be, and he was nearly out of the league a couple years ago.

And no need to get defensive and act like I'm saying something absurd, that's my valuation of him which obviously doesn't coincide with yours, we'll see in a couple of years or three who was right, I'll be happy to eat crow if he's still in the league.

[LloydFree]

I think the differences are in the small details. I don't have a problem with using the draft or accumulating assets. The differences are that OKC also paid attention to keeping good guy veterans on the squad to help mentor the young players, teach them how to be professionals, show them how hard you have to work, etc. Presti avoided players with injury histories in the draft.

Seattle didn't intentionally tank when they landed Durant. This was a team that had far exceeded expectations the year before and missed the playoffs the following year when Ray Allen injured his ankle. Seattle was not one of the top 5 worst teams that year, they simply got lucky in the lottery.

They didn't intentionally tank after they got Kevin Durant? What do you call trading away All-star, Ray Allen, AFTER they drafted Kevin Durant.

OKC traded one of the hardest workers of All-time, after they had one terrible year. Instead of keeping Ray Allen around to "teach" Kevin Durant. Surely Kevin Durant would have experienced a "winning culture" in year one, instead of learning to lose for 3 years.

With the protests I'm reading about the 76ers process, I guess OKC should have kept Ray Allen to play with Kevin Durant, so they could "teach" Durant, rather than position themselves to get Westbrook and then Harden.

[sixerswillrule]

I think the differences are in the small details. I don't have a problem with using the draft or accumulating assets. The differences are that OKC also paid attention to keeping good guy veterans on the squad to help mentor the young players, teach them how to be professionals, show them how hard you have to work, etc. Presti avoided players with injury histories in the draft.

Seattle didn't intentionally tank when they landed Durant. This was a team that had far exceeded expectations the year before and missed the playoffs the following year when Ray Allen injured his ankle. Seattle was not one of the top 5 worst teams that year, they simply got lucky in the lottery.

They didn't intentionally tank after they got Kevin Durant? What do you call trading away All-star, Ray Allen, AFTER they drafted Kevin Durant.

OKC traded one of the hardest workers of All-time, after they had one terrible year. Instead of keeping Ray Allen around to "teach" Kevin Durant. Surely Kevin Durant would have experienced a "winning culture" in year one, instead of learning to lose for 3 years.

With the protests I'm reading about the 76ers process, I guess OKC should have kept Ray Allen to play with Kevin Durant, so they could "teach" Durant, rather than position themselves to get Westbrook and then Harden.

Exactly. And if he was trying to say that Seattle didn't intentionally tank in 06-07 in order to get Durant (they were still the 5th worst team regardless of intentions), I don't see how that's relevant to what was being discussed.

[cammac]

Think the title should be" Much to do about Nothing".
Have 2 Cs that maybe injury prone.
MCW worst ROI in last 20 years.
Bennett may well be the best player next year.
If everything goes right they may be a treadmill team in 5 years.

[GallagherArt]

Think the title should be" Much to do about Nothing".
Have 2 Cs that maybe injury prone.
MCW worst ROI in last 20 years.
Bennett may well be the best player next year.
If everything goes right they may be a treadmill team in 5 years.

What is the likelihood that what were the consensus top overall picks prior to their respective injuries both falling to same team in consecutive years? It's an anomaly that could yield a special front court pairing.

MCW being among the worst ROYs in the last 20 years (Mike Miller was noticeably worse) doesn't make him a bad rookie though, I don't understand why exactly you're seemingly holding that against him.

I don't believe you understand the extent of what 'everything going right' indicates exactly; for instance, if everything goes right for Embiid alone than they have their franchise caliber big man.

[HartfordWhalers]

I gave up when outside shooting wasn't what the team wanted from a swing spot, leats of all when he said he should be out of the league. Just don't expect anything worth discussing at that point.

Nice way to spin what I said into "shooting is useless". All I'm saying is you can't hold on to "he once shot 40% from three" if that's the only quality that you see in him. Anthony Morrow has always been a better shooter than Hollis will ever be, and he was nearly out of the league a couple years ago.

And no need to get defensive and act like I'm saying something absurd, that's my valuation of him which obviously doesn't coincide with yours, we'll see in a couple of years or three who was right, I'll be happy to eat crow if he's still in the league.

I'm not spinning what you said into shooting is useless. I trying very clearly to say that this statement was absurd:

It was a polite way of saying he shouldn't be in the league

Mostly cause it clearly was.

[QRich3]

Yeah whatever, time will tell. Like another poster said, he was a bench player in the D League before you signed him, and he hasn't showed much more in his rookie year. He's a guy whose only redeeming attribute is shooting mildly well on the worst offensive team of the post-handchecking era. If you wanna call it absurd, go ahead.

[Kurosawa0]

Its going to be weird when they end up with Nerlens Noel, Joel Embiid and Jahlil Okafor.

[Notanoob]

I love McDaniels personally, but I doubt that he wins the starting shooting guard spot. He simply doesn't have the offensive skills to play guard. His jumpshot is a work in progress (there is still plenty ofhope for it), his passing is not that great, and his handle isn't that strong either. He can get points off of cuts and putbacks, but having a guy who's limited at everything playing SG a lot seems unlikely. I figure Wroten and McRae will spend a lot of time at the 2.

[Sixteen]

Its going to be weird when they end up with Nerlens Noel, Joel Embiid and Jahlil Okafor.

What's weird about having back to back to back projected #1 picks? Obviously somebody is going to get traded. Wiggins got Kevin Love, not much of an issue.

[Kurosawa0]

Its going to be weird when they end up with Nerlens Noel, Joel Embiid and Jahlil Okafor.

What's weird about having back to back to back projected #1 picks? Obviously somebody is going to get traded. Wiggins got Kevin Love, not much of an issue.

It was a joke that they'll end up with three guys that play the same position. Lighten up a bit.