Jazzfan1971 and FloppyMoose's Offseason Preview - Jazz

[loserX]

How bad is Kanter's defense at the C spot? Can you project any improvement?

If so/ if not, as a Jazz fan what is his current expected trade value?

Hard to say. Last year it wasn't good. There are three possible factors:

1) He's young, and all but a few young bigs take time to learn NBA defense.
2) His effort level was quite inconsistent.
3) His coach was a moron, likely the worst in the NBA. *Especially* at developing young players, another reason he's gone.

We're *hoping* that (1) will take care of itself, and that solving (3) will trickle down and solve (2). Obviously it remains to be seen.

If there's no change, he's still a good young backup big. Poor defense but has legit size and can score and rebound on an NBA level already. The bad news is he has only one year left on his rookie contract before becoming a restricted FA, and then he's getting paid on his potential. Does your team believe in that potential? That's what'll settle his trade value.

[Slava]

Will Rudy Gobert be available in a trade? I'd love to have that guy on the Lakers.

[the_process]

I don't understand how it's intellectually honest to mock one team as an affront to organized sports while at the same time unabashedly rooting for your own team to follow suit.

[BieberLUV]

Don't a good third of all pf's not have any offensive game? Just because a player doesn't have the offensive game of a pf, doesn't make them a center.

I think the distinction is much more a matter of where the player is suited to defend.

about 75% of centers and power forwards in the league don't have any post games

the only percentage of those players that are significant and rotational players are athletic for lobs or can shoot the three or protect the paint or a combination of the three

twin tower play and low post play is dead in the nba and what i mean by that is two front court guys with high usage plays on offense that can work the low post like mchale-parish, sampson-hakeem, mourning-johnson and duncan-robinson not frontcourts like splitter-duncan, griffin-jordan and valanciunas-amir etc who are more or less a pairing of one good low post player and one garbage man who will clean up all the mess around the rim and protect the paint

take a look at the failed twin tower experiments in recent years: howard-gasol, sanders-henson, kanter-favors, drummond-monroe

this is a small ball, space oriented league now. there is little need for a low post option

Sorry. I died a little here. Drummond/Monroe is not a failed "twin tower experiment" because for one, they never **** have got to play together due to our past coaching failures and General mismanagement...and on top of that Drummond literally has, to put it a nice way, a "developing" offensive game. He's basically Deandre Jordan right now. So he doesn't fit your criteria anyway as he's been more or less a garbage player for his 2 years of play.

Then lets see.. Howard was hurt, Pau was hurt. Sanders/Henson was suppose to be an elite twin tower frontcourt on the level of Hakeem-Sampson? What the ****? And Kantar who was a stable for ShaqinTheFool? Oh lawrdy.

i'm not gonna derail this thread any further with my opinion. it's clearly for another thread

that said, all i'm gonna say is that people had hopes and expectations of those twin towers panning out, and they didn't because it's passe in today's nba

back on topic, op (both mods) do you think exum and burke can start somewhere down the line while burks is the scoring 6th man sg?

i mean on paper, it looks to be exum's driving ability could compliment burke's shooting ability while burks is a scoring guard. however all three need the ball in their hands to be effective. i think burks is perfect as a 6th man but how about burke and exum?

[jazzfan1971]

I don't understand how it's intellectually honest to mock one team as an affront to organized sports while at the same time unabashedly rooting for your own team to follow suit.

Is that directed at me? Would seem odd if so, I've never been a guy that is opposed to teams tanking. My description of Philly as a farm team isn't mockery, it's meant to highlight the degree that Philly has committed to developing and accumulating assets as opposed to team building.

So, I've never mocked Philly or any other team as an affront to organized sports for tanking. That's just patently false. It's not even close to true as I support tanking as a strategy for teams.

Secondly, where am I unabashedly rooting for the Jazz in that post? I'm a Jazz fan, true, so I do root for them to do well. I also have supported their decision to rebuild, tank if you will. But, I don't see any rooting in my post, unabashed or otherwise.

[jazzfan1971]

about 75% of centers and power forwards in the league don't have any post games

the only percentage of those players that are significant and rotational players are athletic for lobs or can shoot the three or protect the paint or a combination of the three

twin tower play and low post play is dead in the nba and what i mean by that is two front court guys with high usage plays on offense that can work the low post like mchale-parish, sampson-hakeem, mourning-johnson and duncan-robinson not frontcourts like splitter-duncan, griffin-jordan and valanciunas-amir etc who are more or less a pairing of one good low post player and one garbage man who will clean up all the mess around the rim and protect the paint

take a look at the failed twin tower experiments in recent years: howard-gasol, sanders-henson, kanter-favors, drummond-monroe

this is a small ball, space oriented league now. there is little need for a low post option

Sorry. I died a little here. Drummond/Monroe is not a failed "twin tower experiment" because for one, they never **** have got to play together due to our past coaching failures and General mismanagement...and on top of that Drummond literally has, to put it a nice way, a "developing" offensive game. He's basically Deandre Jordan right now. So he doesn't fit your criteria anyway as he's been more or less a garbage player for his 2 years of play.

Then lets see.. Howard was hurt, Pau was hurt. Sanders/Henson was suppose to be an elite twin tower frontcourt on the level of Hakeem-Sampson? What the ****? And Kantar who was a stable for ShaqinTheFool? Oh lawrdy.

i'm not gonna derail this thread any further with my opinion. it's clearly for another thread

that said, all i'm gonna say is that people had hopes and expectations of those twin towers panning out, and they didn't because it's passe in today's nba

back on topic, op (both mods) do you think exum and burke can start somewhere down the line while burks is the scoring 6th man sg?

i mean on paper, it looks to be exum's driving ability could compliment burke's shooting ability while burks is a scoring guard. however all three need the ball in their hands to be effective. i think burks is perfect as a 6th man but how about burke and exum?

Exum is well suited to PG and poorly suited to sG. He's got the size to guard shooting guards, but, offensively he's not a shooter and is much more comfortable with the ball in his hands. We could see some of Burke and Exum on the floor together, but, I think you'd have to have Exum playing offense as a PG and defense as a SG in that case.

I'm not terribly excited about it myself. I prefer the idea of just having burke be the backup PG or be traded.

[Sixteen]

Solid young core. Wonder whats to come of Trey B if Exum outplays him. I certainly see more potential than a backup PG in him.

[NothingButLuck]

So let me get this straight. The Jazz let Al Jefferson and Paul Milsap walk for nothing, but the 76ers management is an abomination for trading Evan Turner and Spencer Hawes for 2nd round picks?

Well they had traded for Favors in the Williams deal, and already had Kanter as backup center and was promising at the time. They let Al and Millsap go to free up the starting spots for the young guys. Who did Philly free up time for? Totally different.

Your right. It's not the same thing. The Jazz let two All-stars walk, in their Free agent year, in order to play younger players. The 76ers traded away two league average players, in order to play younger players.

Personally, I wouldn't even put Hawes and Turner in the league average tier, with Turner being the worst out of those two.

[the_process]

I don't understand how it's intellectually honest to mock one team as an affront to organized sports while at the same time unabashedly rooting for your own team to follow suit.

Is that directed at me? Would seem odd if so, I've never been a guy that is opposed to teams tanking. My description of Philly as a farm team isn't mockery, it's meant to highlight the degree that Philly has committed to developing and accumulating assets as opposed to team building.

So, I've never mocked Philly or any other team as an affront to organized sports for tanking. That's just patently false. It's not even close to true as I support tanking as a strategy for teams.

Secondly, where am I unabashedly rooting for the Jazz in that post? I'm a Jazz fan, true, so I do root for them to do well. I also have supported their decision to rebuild, tank if you will. But, I don't see any rooting in my post, unabashed or otherwise.

Utah, your team:

"An average age of 21.875. Lets just say 22. It's kinda like the Jazz are running a team of College seniors out there. Adreian Payne (15th pick of 2014 draft) is older than the average age of the top 8; put that in your pipe and smoke it. If Corbin was still the coach he'd find a way to get 96 minutes a night out of Novak just to piss off Jazz fans. However, I don't see any way Snyder manages to screw up the youth movement -cough- tank -cough-"

Philly, not your team:

"There really is no other way of looking at it. We've seen teams reload. We've seen teams rebuild. But, the 76ers are the first team I've ever seen become a farm team. They are all about asset development and accumulation at this point. None of their players are 'their guys' all of them are simply assets, ready to be traded at the drop of a hat if a slightly better (or younger) asset comes along. In fact, if you play well for the 76ers there is a good chance that you'll be shipped off to another city. Just ask Holiday. Just ask Michael Carter Williams. If Noel looks good expect his name to be on the trade block. Thad Young probably has his bags packed and sitting by the front door waiting for the day his phone rings.

It will be interesting to see them change the way they do business and become a team about competing instead of accumulating in the future as it's going to take quite a shift in the way they approach players and their fans."


Quite a difference in tone, wouldn't you say? Oh, and there's some rooting for the tank in there, don't play coy.

[Boarder Patrol]

Really solid, REALLY young core. They should trade Kanter though (one of Kanter/Favors, and Favors is a keeper imo). In the current NBA, spacing is REALLY important. It's practically impossible to survive with 2 Cs on the floor, hell, the traditional PF is becoming outdated as well unless they're a shooter. The defensive 5 / stretch 4 model is becoming more and more popular and for good reason.

[the_process]

A Kanter/Burke package for either a C or a PF (I think probably preferably a PF) that can play with Favors effectively should be on the table for the Jazz.

[LloydFree]

A Kanter/Burke package for either a C or a PF (I think probably preferably a PF) that can play with Favors effectively should be on the table for the Jazz.

Kanter and Burke for Greg Monroe and Dinwiddie, assuming Monroe would want to sign with the Jazz.

[shawn unkempt]

The Jazz seem destined to be a completely meh team unless Exum actually turns into a star. Their young players are no where near as good as many people expected. Kanters in particular has been a dud. Unfortunately for them, Exum is rawer than hell. His career could go either way.

[PDX MM]

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Utah ends up being that surprise team like Phoenix last year though not to the extent the Suns took it. However as a Blazer fan I also don't mind seeing us beat up on the Jazz for another year or two but I admit that is a nice looking young core they have put together.

[C.lupus]

The Jazz are putting together a nice young team but, yeah, they are way too young to win many games for the foreseeable future.

[Luigi]

Well they had traded for Favors in the Williams deal, and already had Kanter as backup center and was promising at the time. They let Al and Millsap go to free up the starting spots for the young guys. Who did Philly free up time for? Totally different.

Your right. It's not the same thing. The Jazz let two All-stars walk, in their Free agent year, in order to play younger players. The 76ers traded away two league average players, in order to play younger players.

Missing some important context for Utah. In Al and Paul's contract year, at the time of the trade deadline, the Jazz were several games above .500 and *in the playoff seeding*. Most teams, especially small market ones, don't really think of that as a good time to trade away their best players and start tanking.

As it turns out, we just missed the playoffs, and both guys ended up signing that offseason with capspace teams so S&Ts weren't an option. It was too late to try to get any value by then.

In hindsight, yeah, obviously, it would have been nice to trade them and get value and that's easy to criticize. We became victims of our own success. But at the time it was a completely defensible decision, and probably the right one, not to.

I still worry that we should have just kept Al and built around him. I'm not sure any of our young guys will ever be as good as Alberto Grande is right now.

[suntzuballin]

2 pg system will be used in utah..

[Xsy]

So let me get this straight. The Jazz let Al Jefferson and Paul Milsap walk for nothing, but the 76ers management is an abomination for trading Evan Turner and Spencer Hawes for 2nd round picks?

I'm pretty sure Utah tried trading both of these guys before letting them walk. Opposing teams knew they would be free agents in the coming offseason, they only offered Utah garbage contracts. In that case, it's better to just let them walk than taking on another team's trash.

Utah probably could have traded Millsap and Jefferson a year sooner, and gotten a good deal out of it, but at that time, Utah was in the playoff hunt, meaning they weren't looking to blow up the team.

Make sense now?

[LloydFree]

So let me get this straight. The Jazz let Al Jefferson and Paul Milsap walk for nothing, but the 76ers management is an abomination for trading Evan Turner and Spencer Hawes for 2nd round picks?

I'm pretty sure Utah tried trading both of these guys before letting them walk. Opposing teams knew they would be free agents in the coming offseason, they only offered Utah garbage contracts. In that case, it's better to just let them walk than taking on another team's trash.

Utah probably could have traded Millsap and Jefferson a year sooner, and gotten a good deal out of it, but at that time, Utah was in the playoff hunt, meaning they weren't looking to blow up the team.
Make sense now?

I completely understand the situation. My question was more rhetorical, due to some comments made on the 76ers portion of this series, from the two Jazz fan "authors".

There were critical comments made about the 76ers trading away " studs" like Thad Young, Evan Turner and Spencer Hawes, instead of building around these "studs".

I found that take interesting, coming from a fan of a team that decided not to build around Jefferson and Milsap. Could it be that Jazz management decided they weren't good enough to build around? And if Al Jefferson and Paul Milsap and Demarre Carroll weren't good enough for you, why should lesser players like Turner and Hawes be good enough to build around for the 76ers?

[Xsy]

So let me get this straight. The Jazz let Al Jefferson and Paul Milsap walk for nothing, but the 76ers management is an abomination for trading Evan Turner and Spencer Hawes for 2nd round picks?

I'm pretty sure Utah tried trading both of these guys before letting them walk. Opposing teams knew they would be free agents in the coming offseason, they only offered Utah garbage contracts. In that case, it's better to just let them walk than taking on another team's trash.

Utah probably could have traded Millsap and Jefferson a year sooner, and gotten a good deal out of it, but at that time, Utah was in the playoff hunt, meaning they weren't looking to blow up the team.
Make sense now?

I completely understand the situation. My question was more rhetorical, due to some comments made on the 76ers portion of this series, from the two Jazz fan "authors".

There were critical comments made about the 76ers trading away " studs" like Thad Young, Evan Turner and Spencer Hawes, instead of building around these "studs".

I found that take interesting, coming from a fan of a team that decided not to build around Jefferson and Milsap. Could it be that Jazz management decided they weren't good enough to build around? And if Al Jefferson and Paul Milsap and Demarre Carroll weren't good enough for you, why should lesser players like Turner and Hawes be good enough to build around for the 76ers?

I guess the difference is that Jefferson and Millsap were considered "too old" compared to Utah's rebuilding core, while Young and Turner are still young enough to fit into the 76er's core.

On top of that, Utah let go of Jefferson and Millsap to make room for Kanter and Favors, where Philly let go of Young and Turner to make room for ... more tanking.

I'm still bitter about Utah letting go of Carroll.