Jazzfan1971 and FloppyMoose's Offseason Preview - The Knicks

[Capn'O]

I think there are some 'non' question marks as well.

Calderon's defense
Barg's affect on the floor
A jumble at SG.
A PF who you folks seem to be counting on that struggles to keep healthy

Seriously. If I was an opposing player I'd be licking my chops to match up against the Knicks. That's looks to my eye to be the least functional defense in the league. You'll score some, Melo will see to that, but, I think more nights than not you will be giving up more points than you score.

I don't consider myself a Knicks hater in the least. A Laker hater, yes. A Knicks hater? Why would I bother? There is no bad blood there that I know of. I wish you the best of luck this season and I even think there is an outside shot you capture that 8th seed. (I'm guessing the 9th seed though, understand that my seed projection is separate from Floppymoose's projected wins projection, the two aren't related)

You guys seem to be putting a lot of stock into a player (Bargs) that has historically had a negative impact on the floor receiving a lot of time. We're telling you that he was brought in as much for WHAT he was (a CAA client) and what his contract was (clearing Novak in 2016) as for what he might bring.

If he brings nothing, what makes you think he will stick in the lineup? What makes you think him and Amare will play together if that is an obviously unsuccessful lineup? Especially, when there are other options (Cole, Smith, Dally, maybe even Acy) that bring more positive net attributes.

The Knicks under PMFJB are not married to any one agency as they were in the past. They have no incentive to play players that aren't producing.

[jazzfan1971]

I must have missed teh boat on Cole Aldrich. Every time I saw him play in Portland was it? He looked like dogmeat. I have completely written him off as an NBA rotation player. Yet I see his name come up again and again from Knicks fans who think they have something there.

What am I missing?

[NYKAL]

Disgusting bigs.

Amare played very, very well the 2nd half of the season. In fact, he was damn near unstoppable in the post. The entire team improved (2nd half of the season) once dumbass Woodson put Amare into the starting lineup. Say what you want, he might be lost to injury next year but, last season Amare was NOT terrible. Only people that would make that assessment are people who don't watch Knicks games.

[ingvald]

I must have missed teh boat on Cole Aldrich. Every time I saw him play in Portland was it? He looked like dogmeat. I have completely written him off as an NBA rotation player. Yet I see his name come up again and again from Knicks fans who think they have something there.

What am I missing?

A single 12/10 game?

[NYKAL]

I must have missed teh boat on Cole Aldrich. Every time I saw him play in Portland was it? He looked like dogmeat. I have completely written him off as an NBA rotation player. Yet I see his name come up again and again from Knicks fans who think they have something there.

What am I missing?

A single 12/10 game?

^ this about is far from the truth. Sure guys are probably overrating him but, when he did get play time he did his thing. Rebounded better than Tyson, showed a couple of automatic post moves and ran the floor well. Not saying we see him as an allstar but, he seem like he can be a better than decent player.

[ingvald]

I must have missed teh boat on Cole Aldrich. Every time I saw him play in Portland was it? He looked like dogmeat. I have completely written him off as an NBA rotation player. Yet I see his name come up again and again from Knicks fans who think they have something there.

What am I missing?

A single 12/10 game?

^ this about is far from the truth. Sure guys are probably overrating him but, when he did get play time he did his thing. Rebounded better than Tyson, showed a couple of automatic post moves and ran the floor well. Not saying we see him as an allstar but, he seem like he can be a better than decent player.

It was a quasi-green font comment. I can't say I can remember a single thing he did on the floor, I just quick-checked stats. But 7 min, 2 pts, 2.5 rebs is a bit underwhelming to the outside observer. That's pretty much the same production the Bulls got out of the walking corpse of Nazr Mohammed. But I'm pretty Knick ignorant so whatever.

[Capn'O]

I must have missed teh boat on Cole Aldrich. Every time I saw him play in Portland was it? He looked like dogmeat. I have completely written him off as an NBA rotation player. Yet I see his name come up again and again from Knicks fans who think they have something there.

What am I missing?

I had my eye on him for a few years and was excited that the Knicks picked him up. He had a few indicators that I look for as far as cheap gambles go. 1) He was a highly touted prospect whose stock fell because he stayed an extra year in college and 2) his advanced stats in spot minutes (PER, defensive rating) and per minute stats (particularly on D) were very good. A few Sacto fans came on our board when the Knicks picked him up as well and were disappointed that the Kings let him go. They said that he showed much of what I'm about to say he showed.

Watching him with the Knicks over the course of the season confirmed what I suspected about him. He's an excellent, perhaps elite, rebounder and both per minute stats and the eye test will tell you that. People will cite his two big late season games but his rebounds/36 actually dropped (to 14.1 from 16+) when he received more playing time. He boxes out well and is quick and precise with the outlet pass. The Knicks were able to run much more with Cole in the game than with Bargs or even Chandler at center. He doesn't quite have the lower body strength to keep up with the big boys like Hibbert (Bargs actually does) but otherwise is a solid man defender and a heady help defender.

On offense, he doesn't have much of an NBA scoring game. A few basic post moves. Perhaps he can get the 8-10ft jumper down but otherwise will just get garbage points at high efficiency. But he doesn't force anything so he's not going to hurt you that much there. He's also a good passer and offensive rebounder.

He's never stood a test of sustained NBA minutes but he's also never failed a test of sustained NBA minutes. Having played well in spot minutes and larger reserve roles towards the end of the season, it stands to reason he'll get more of a chance with the front line so thin for NYK.

Also, PMFJ is reported to like him and did resign him.

[NYKAL]

A single 12/10 game?

^ this about is far from the truth. Sure guys are probably overrating him but, when he did get play time he did his thing. Rebounded better than Tyson, showed a couple of automatic post moves and ran the floor well. Not saying we see him as an allstar but, he seem like he can be a better than decent player.

It was a quasi-green font comment. I can't say I can remember a single thing he did on the floor, I just quick-checked stats. But 7 min, 2 pts, 2.5 rebs is a bit underwhelming to the outside observer. That's pretty much the same production the Bulls got out of the walking corpse of Nazr Mohammed. But I'm pretty Knick ignorant so whatever.

you should never never to trust stats that aren't backed up by the eye test. 2nd half of the season he was playing a lot more minutes but, because of the restriction Woodson placed on him in the 1st half, it looks like he only played averaged 7minutes and averaged those lows in points. 2nd half he was dropping around 16pts a game with a very high efficiency rate.

[Capn'O]

More simply put - for players that played more than half of the season's games he was 3rd in the entire league in rebounding per minute and 2nd in blocks per minute. Again, he needs more time, but that's definitely enough to draw interest.

[Morris_Shatford]

It appears that Knick's fans optimism around Jose Calderon is similar to the optimism surrounding Bargnani walking into last season.

[SIC]

It appears that Knick's fans optimism around Jose Calderon is similar to the optimism surrounding Bargnani walking into last season.

Hold up now!!!

Didnt you hear.

Bargnani is going to be great in the triangle, because Phil is going to seated in Section 7, Row 7, Seat 7 for every game chanting ZEN mantras at Bargnani to make him unstoppable in the triangle.

[Capn'O]

It appears that Knick's fans optimism around Jose Calderon is similar to the optimism surrounding Bargnani walking into last season.

You are mistaking optimism for Calderon with the fury of a thousand angry gods towards Felton. In all seriousness, many of us were ready to start JR Smith at the point last year.

We expect competent floor command, good shooting, and piss poor defense from Jose. No?

[ingvald]

you should never never to trust stats that aren't backed up by the eye test. 2nd half of the season he was playing a lot more minutes but, because of the restriction Woodson placed on him in the 1st half, it looks like he only played averaged 7minutes and averaged those lows in points. 2nd half he was dropping around 16pts a game with a very high efficiency rate.

You can tell its the offseason when I'm engaging in an internet debate about Cole Aldrich. I agree with you on stats not backed up by the eye test. There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. But I'll proceed just for grits and shiggles...

Cole Aldrich scored 13 pts and 16 rebs in the final game of the season against Toronto. The game before he scored 13 pts/13 reb against Brooklyn. Before that he scored 6, 0, 0, 0, 6, 0, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, and 4 pts. Then on March 15 he scored 12/10 against Boston. Before that, he scored 0, 6, 0, 0, 2, 0, 0, 2, etc.

So he had three games of double figures, never exceeding 13, let alone ever approaching your statement of "dropping 16 a game". Your eye test needs some statistical validation.

[suntzuballin]

It appears that Knick's fans optimism around Jose Calderon is similar to the optimism surrounding Bargnani walking into last season.

optimistic about bargani Lol why dont knicks hire colangelo while there at it.

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[Morris_Shatford]

We expect competent floor command, good shooting, and piss poor defense from Jose. No?

Keep in mind, I like Jose I think he got a lot of crap from Toronto fans for things that were as a result of a greater overall deficiency on the roster than were solely his fault.

But the floor command is something that really is in the eye of the beholder. I think you guys are going to get driven crazy when he holds the ball late into the shot-clock looking for a perfect pass and then tries to MacGyver a play out of it by trying to bang it inside in the last few seconds. Chris Bosh and Amir Johnson converted a lot of broken plays into assists during Jose's time in Toronto.

He isn't as bad as some Raptor fans will imply, but he isn't as good as his APG or A/T ratio would lead you to believe.

His recent shooting I can't comment on as the consistency is something new;
He use to go games without making one or would go 1/4 and then offset it by having a game of two of going 3/3, 3/4 or 4/5.

He wasn't a guy you want to take the last shot, but I would imagine you have better options that Calderon in that situation if you can't get the ball to Melo.

His defense is bad, but he will make an effort. Jose simply lacks the tools to stay in front of his man, its a physical limitation thing not an effort one.

Compared to Felton, Jose is an incredible upgrade
With that said I think a few games into the season you may find that a sort of healthy Tyson Chandler does more things that win you games than a healthy Jose Calderon.

[Capn'O]

We expect competent floor command, good shooting, and piss poor defense from Jose. No?

Keep in mind, I like Jose I think he got a lot of crap from Toronto fans for things that were as a result of a greater overall deficiency on the roster than were solely his fault.

But the floor command is something that really is in the eye of the beholder. I think you guys are going to get driven crazy when he holds the ball late into the shot-clock looking for a perfect pass and then tries to MacGyver a play out of it by trying to bang it inside in the last few seconds. Chris Bosh and Amir Johnson converted a lot of broken plays into assists during Jose's time in Toronto.

He isn't as bad as some Raptor fans will imply, but he isn't as good as his APG or A/T ratio would lead you to believe.

His recent shooting I can't comment on as the consistency is something new;
He use to go games without making one or would go 1/4 and then offset it by having a game of two of going 3/3, 3/4 or 4/5.

He wasn't a guy you want to take the last shot, but I would imagine you have better options that Calderon in that situation if you can't get the ball to Melo.

His defense is bad, but he will make an effort. Jose simply lacks the tools to stay in front of his man, its a physical limitation thing not an effort one.

Compared to Felton, Jose is an incredible upgrade

With that said I think a few games into the season you may find that a sort of healthy Tyson Chandler does more things that win you games than a healthy Jose Calderon.

I see - so you're wondering about our excitement about the trade.

Tyson's an expiring so he was gone either way. So is Dalembert. Right or wrong in his gripes, Tyson also made a lot of waves last year within the team. Felton and Calderon's contracts go the same length and Felton had all sorts of personal drama going on.

So, long term upgrade. Knicks get Larkin. Two 2nds. Knickfan is optimistic that Cole can provide some of what was lost in Chandler. In short, Dallas wins the immediate talent push but Knicks get a chemistry boost and prospects. Plus, Jose and Marc are friends Regardless of whether anyone thinks the Knicks have a shot at Marc they will try.

[floppymoose]

I agree with Knicks fans that getting Calderon was wise, and I agree with the assessment above:

We expect competent floor command, good shooting, and piss poor defense from Jose.

The way the nba has evolved, it's critical to have good offensive players amongst the guards and good defensive players amongst the bigs.

[E-Balla]

you should never never to trust stats that aren't backed up by the eye test. 2nd half of the season he was playing a lot more minutes but, because of the restriction Woodson placed on him in the 1st half, it looks like he only played averaged 7minutes and averaged those lows in points. 2nd half he was dropping around 16pts a game with a very high efficiency rate.

You can tell its the offseason when I'm engaging in an internet debate about Cole Aldrich. I agree with you on stats not backed up by the eye test. There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. But I'll proceed just for grits and shiggles...

Cole Aldrich scored 13 pts and 16 rebs in the final game of the season against Toronto. The game before he scored 13 pts/13 reb against Brooklyn. Before that he scored 6, 0, 0, 0, 6, 0, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, and 4 pts. Then on March 15 he scored 12/10 against Boston. Before that, he scored 0, 6, 0, 0, 2, 0, 0, 2, etc.

So he had three games of double figures, never exceeding 13, let alone ever approaching your statement of "dropping 16 a game". Your eye test needs some statistical validation.

I ink he got confused with Amare who averaged 16/6 in the last 20ish games (all starts) with amazing efficiency.

With Melo putting up 26-28 on good efficiency, Amare putting up 15-18 (I expect about 55-60 games from him) with insanely high efficiency (62 TS and 124 ORTG in his starts), Calderon making shots and being super efficient, and hopefully one of Shump (who shot 40% from deep in 2013), Hardaway (who can make and create good looks from deep consistently), or Smith (who averaged 17/4/3 on 57 TS/113 ORTG after being benched) hitting 3s consistently I think NY could have a top 5 offense again.

Defensively I don't think the team got worse. We were pretty piss poor last year, Tyson didn't try at all (his on/off is proof enough), and Ray/Tyson guarding a pick and roll was somehow worse than Ray/Amare or Bargs (basically they can't play together at all).

I think 42-40 is a good prediction of their level of play. 45 wins at the most 39 at least.

[E-Balla]

I agree with Knicks fans that getting Calderon was wise, and I agree with the assessment above:

We expect competent floor command, good shooting, and piss poor defense from Jose.

The way the nba has evolved, it's critical to high good offensive players amongst the guards and good defensive players amongst the bigs.

Honestly I think his relationship with Marc Gasol could be worth that large contract. If he could help us land Marc for what we got Tyson for (which will still leave us with the MLE and 3-4 mil if we don't dump anyone) I'd say NY easily won he trade.

[Green Backpack]

The Knicks are going to have to score at least top 5 ppg considering that putrid defense if they want to touch .500, imo