Offseason Thread 7: A Tale Of Two Dragons

SideSwipe · Post #481 » by **SideSwipe** » Thu Oct 2, 2014 4:31 pm

In reference to the IT/ PG situation. Imagine if IT was with the Suns last year and had our finishers instead of SAC's. Would he have averaged 20 and 8? If he averaged 20 and 8, he would have been in truly elite territory. These PG battles will be interesting.

As it stands there are only 31 people in the history of the league who have accomplished what IT has (20.3 ppg, 6.3apg, 45.3% fg%. Of those 31 only 13 did it by the time they were 25 years old. Here is the list:

Oscar Robertson*
Michael Jordan*
Walt Frazier*
Stephen Curry
Calvin Murphy*
LeBron James
Grant Hill
Anfernee Hardaway
Tiny Archibald*
Kevin Johnson
Tim Hardaway
Chris Paul
Isiah Thomas* (IT's namesake)

If you add 85% FT% that list goes down to 5 other people by the time they were 25. Oscar Robertson, Steph Curry, Calvin Murphy, Chris Paul, and yes Kevin Johnson. That is a good list to be a part of.

RunDogGun · Post #482 » by **RunDogGun** » Thu Oct 2, 2014 5:47 pm

I wonder if Hornacek saw a little of KJ in IT when we played against them.

Saberestar · Post #483 » by **Saberestar** » Thu Oct 2, 2014 5:51 pm

Calvin Klein wrote:Did he seriously complain about a video game rating??

http://www.givemesport.com/504617-phoen ... n-nba-2k15

Ryu · Post #484 » by **Ryu** » Thu Oct 2, 2014 5:58 pm

RunDogGun wrote:I wonder if Hornacek saw a little of KJ in IT when we played against them.

Dunno, but I remember Goran was having a lot of problems playing against Isaiah last season.

Scutt · Post #485 » by **Scutt** » Thu Oct 2, 2014 5:59 pm

deb wrote:
He already is a much better outside shooter than Goodwin. Goran was barely 22 when he signed. I imagine Zoran at 25 is more experienced and mentally more NBA ready than Gogi was plus he has Gogi to help him adjust. I think Zoki right now is a much more finished product than Warren, Ennis or Goodwin. Whether he has the ability to actually be relevant in the NBA remains to be seen though.

I don't think Zorans age has much to do with it, honestly. I don't care how old a player is, there has to be some kind of transition and adjustment from playing in the euro league to the NBA. The NBA is a different style of basketball, and the players are stronger and more athletic. I really don't get why you guys insist he is going to come in and have an immediate impact, like the vast majority of rookies, he will need time to adjust.

Archie Goodwin, on the other hand, has NBA experience. He already has a season under his belt with the same coaching staff, same plays, and the majority of the same players. I would think he is much more ready to play with this team than Zoran, but we will find out shortly.

kennydorglas · Post #486 » by **kennydorglas** » Thu Oct 2, 2014 6:32 pm

Ryu wrote:
RunDogGun wrote:I wonder if Hornacek saw a little of KJ in IT when we played against them.

Dunno, but I remember Goran was having a lot of problems playing against Isaiah last season.

IT is just a nice fit for our system.
His pullup game is nasty, can create a nice separation with his handle
he can be our jamal crawford, for sure.

Sun Scorched · Post #487 » by **Sun Scorched** » Thu Oct 2, 2014 6:43 pm

How anyone can already be worried about Thomas, IDK.

What others also need to realize: IT is going to be tearing up second units this year, as opposed to going against starting-level defenses. And seriously, how anyone can compare that constant train wreck of a roster in SAC to even our second unit.... pshhhh.

In addition to scoring at will, IT will have Green and the Morrii to work with - at the very least - all solid shooters who can stretch the floor and open up the driving lanes for him.

Not worried at all - excited to get this all started.

Sun Scorched · Post #488 » by **Sun Scorched** » Thu Oct 2, 2014 6:55 pm

Also, check this out:

In terms of points per shot taken (a basic metric I like to look at that includes how good players are at drawing fouls):

#1 - Dragic @ 1.41
#2 - Bledsoe @ 1.37
#3 - Paul @ 1.36
#4 - Curry @ 1.36
#5 - Lawson @ 1.35
#6 - Wade @ 1.35
#7 - Lin @ 1.34
#8 - Thomas @ 1.34

That means that we have the first, second and eighth ranked guards at generating points. Also, IT ranked behind only Westbrook and Lawson in terms of trips to the FT line.

In summation, three of the top point getting guards are on our roster - other teams backcourts will be in CONSTANT foul trouble.

No-Man · Post #489 » by **No-Man** » Thu Oct 2, 2014 7:47 pm

what will you ask for Ennis if toronto comes interested? a 1st?

sdballer · Post #490 » by **sdballer** » Thu Oct 2, 2014 8:12 pm

Sun Scorched wrote:How anyone can already be worried about Thomas, IDK.

What others also need to realize: IT is going to be tearing up second units this year, as opposed to going against starting-level defenses. And seriously, how anyone can compare that constant train wreck of a roster in SAC to even our second unit.... pshhhh.

In addition to scoring at will, IT will have Green and the Morrii to work with - at the very least - all solid shooters who can stretch the floor and open up the driving lanes for him.

Not worried at all - excited to get this all started.

Yes and no. Even Sac fans realized he'd be great scoring at will on the second unit. The problem is IT was never willing to accept that. He wants to be a star, he wants minutes and he wants shots, especially at the end of games. Watch enough of his games and you can tell when he's frustrated he isn't getting his and even if winning, he gets crazy selfish. Now Sac didn't have anyone to yank him when he did it while Jeff can pull him and have plenty of other options. But it killed the flow of our offense and our chemistry. And that's only on the offensive side of the ball. He is not just a bad defender. The problem is he is so focused on offense that he barely extends any energy at all on D. Once his man gets by him, he mostly wanders around.

Maybe you are right that winning will change that. I hope so as he has a lot of talent. But the fact that he's already starting to subtly grumble about things isn't a great sign.

King4Day · Post #491 » by **King4Day** » Thu Oct 2, 2014 8:23 pm

Fischella wrote:what will you ask for Ennis if toronto comes interested? a 1st?

I think that's what it would take if we tried dealing him now.
Maybe a first and a future 2nd or something.

From what I'm hearing, the plan for this year is to develop him in the d-league. At the least, we can build his value. If he isn't good, then it is what it is. There's no rush with him. Just asset building currently. He was selected strictly as best player available (as our front office saw it).

LukasBMW · Post #492 » by **LukasBMW** » Thu Oct 2, 2014 8:44 pm

We probably will just D-league Ennis. He's good insurance in case one of our main guys gets an injury.

Until then he can either light up the D-league and improve his trade value or suck balls and become a wasted pick.

Sun Scorched · Post #493 » by **Sun Scorched** » Thu Oct 2, 2014 9:00 pm

Kinda surprised how Bledsoe seems to get the benefit of the doubt, but IT seems to be getting dogged non-stop.

I'd be pissed to if some arbitrary game said I sucked. What, I'm supposed to be happy about it? So what he wants to start, he should. He wants to be in at the end of games? Awesome - I love that spirit.

ImNotMcDiSwear · Post #494 » by **ImNotMcDiSwear** » Thu Oct 2, 2014 9:06 pm

Ennis is a ticket to next year's draft, I think. Better way to preserve value than trading #18 for a future pick. If he were in this draft class, how high do you think he'd be projected right now? Roll it forward.

Saberestar · Post #495 » by **Saberestar** » Thu Oct 2, 2014 9:17 pm

Sun Scorched wrote:Kinda surprised how Bledsoe seems to get the benefit of the doubt, but IT seems to be getting dogged non-stop.

I'd be pissed to if some arbitrary game said I sucked. What, I'm supposed to be happy about it? So what he wants to start, he should. He wants to be in at the end of games? Awesome - I love that spirit.

The problem here is that he is selfish. He thinks that he is an star, that he has to be an starter, that he has to be rated at least #84 in 2K (lol) and more and more.... I like him like a sixth man, but I think he can not be an starter on a contender, because he is passive and undersized on defene. He is perfect like a microwave coming of the bench to play 24-25 minutes per game, but more than that? No.
Hopefully Hornacek deals with that minutes' thing great and convince Isaiah that the team is first and his minutes are second.

Sun Scorched · Post #496 » by **Sun Scorched** » Thu Oct 2, 2014 9:23 pm

Saberestar wrote:
Sun Scorched wrote:Kinda surprised how Bledsoe seems to get the benefit of the doubt, but IT seems to be getting dogged non-stop.

I'd be pissed to if some arbitrary game said I sucked. What, I'm supposed to be happy about it? So what he wants to start, he should. He wants to be in at the end of games? Awesome - I love that spirit.

The problem here is that he is selfish. He thinks that he is an star, that he has to be an starter, that he has to be rated at least #84 in 2K (lol) and more and more.... I like him like a sixth man, but I think he can not be an starter on a contender, because he is passive and undersized on defene. He is perfect like a microwave coming of the bench to play 24-25 minutes per game, but more than that? No.
Hopefully Hornacek deals with that minutes' thing great and convince Isaiah that the team is first and his minutes are second.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think "selfish" is a stretch.... I mean, outside of playing with a chip on his shoulder, I've yet to see anything I don't like.

The kid turned in one of the best seasons by a guard last year - he was one of 4 guys who turned in a season of 20 points, 6 assists - so what if he thinks he should be rated 84? He's got an argument. And I don't even know what the **** we're talking about.

Also, he tallied more assists in fewer minutes than my main man Dragic - so, again, I'm going to give Thomas the benefit of the doubt.

sdballer · Post #497 » by **sdballer** » Thu Oct 2, 2014 9:27 pm

Sun Scorched wrote:
Saberestar wrote:
Sun Scorched wrote:Kinda surprised how Bledsoe seems to get the benefit of the doubt, but IT seems to be getting dogged non-stop.

I'd be pissed to if some arbitrary game said I sucked. What, I'm supposed to be happy about it? So what he wants to start, he should. He wants to be in at the end of games? Awesome - I love that spirit.

The problem here is that he is selfish. He thinks that he is an star, that he has to be an starter, that he has to be rated at least #84 in 2K (lol) and more and more.... I like him like a sixth man, but I think he can not be an starter on a contender, because he is passive and undersized on defene. He is perfect like a microwave coming of the bench to play 24-25 minutes per game, but more than that? No.
Hopefully Hornacek deals with that minutes' thing great and convince Isaiah that the team is first and his minutes are second.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think "selfish" is a stretch.... I mean, outside of playing with a chip on his shoulder, I've yet to see anything I don't like.

The kid turned in one of the best seasons by a guard last year - he was one of 4 guys who turned in a season of 20 points, 6 assists - so what if he thinks he should be rated 84? He's got an argument. And I don't even know what the **** we're talking about.

Also, he tallied more assists in fewer minutes than my main man Dragic - so, again, I'm going to give Thomas the benefit of the doubt.

He is absolutely selfish.

kingstyyyle · Post #498 » by **kingstyyyle** » Thu Oct 2, 2014 9:36 pm

Fischella wrote:what will you ask for Ennis if toronto comes interested? a 1st?

I just don't see the point in another 1st. It would be like trading a first for a future 1st. Who knows though

Moochthemonkey · Post #499 » by **Moochthemonkey** » Thu Oct 2, 2014 9:43 pm

It seems there is always a fan or two of other teams that always insist on coming to our board trying to manufacture drama by "warning" us about the bad traits of their past players...thanks for the heads up...It happened with Turkoglu and it happened with Beasley (unfortunately the predictions were true). What's done is done. It's no surprise that a player can be viewed as a selfish on a bad team that had poor chemistry. IT said in his presser that he's fine with coming off the bench. Aside from that, whether or not you're putting up Ish Smith or Isaiah Thomas numbers all players should stay hungry, maintain their competitive nature and aim for the starting spot...that goes for any job really, always look to be moving up no matter how talented or experienced the person in front of you is. I have confidence that this new FO can smooth out any potential ego problems Thomas may have, but we'll see.

oldjeezy · Post #500 » by **oldjeezy** » Thu Oct 2, 2014 9:45 pm

Can't believe people are worried about IT taking issue with his 2K rating. Athletes complain about their ratings in games all the time. Like, all the time. The tweet he sent seemed to be in good fun anyway.

Selfish? Shoot-first pg, sure. He knew what he was getting into when he chose to sign here. The expectation was always that Bledsoe would be back in some capacity. Didn't Isaiah have an offer from Detroit, and for more money? If he was so obsessed with being the man why didn't he sign there?

Let's get this season started. Let's see how Horny divvies up the minutes. I'm excited about it.