Who's better? Crabtree or Stevie Johnson?

[imac_21]

He explains why LGs get more money in the article. If you want to argue what's more difficult between RG and LG with a guy who played both those positions in the NFL it's going to be a difficult argument to win. I mean, the guy played both positions. He has a fairly deep understanding of how NFL protection schemes work. I'm going to ake Ross' word over yours. Sorry Sick.

His explanation: "The greatest reason why left guards are cashing in these days? There are two: 1) The grading system for offensive linemen; and 2) General lack of understanding among some NFL personnel people concerning the difficulty inherent with the different positions."

In other words, a friggn' offensive lineman knows how to value players better than the pretty much every GM in the league? Sorry me??? GMs don't pay more for certain positions because they don't understand those positions. That's ridiculous.

So GMs know how difficult each position in football is?

And is it just a coincidence that the "elite" guards play LG based on scoring systems? Do great guards just not play on the right side?

Or is your suspicions based on observations of how others financially value positions more reliable than what a guy who played both positions says?

If we use your method, we can put together a ranking of general positions most difficult to least difficult:
1. QB
2. DE
3. WR
4. CB
5. OL
6. DT
7. RB
8. S
9. TE
10. P/K

We can also conclude that QB is roughly 33% more difficult than DE, nearly twice as difficult as safety and 5 times more difficult than kicking or punting.

[NinerSickness]

He explains why LGs get more money in the article. If you want to argue what's more difficult between RG and LG with a guy who played both those positions in the NFL it's going to be a difficult argument to win. I mean, the guy played both positions. He has a fairly deep understanding of how NFL protection schemes work. I'm going to ake Ross' word over yours. Sorry Sick.

His explanation: "The greatest reason why left guards are cashing in these days? There are two: 1) The grading system for offensive linemen; and 2) General lack of understanding among some NFL personnel people concerning the difficulty inherent with the different positions."

In other words, a friggn' offensive lineman knows how to value players better than the pretty much every GM in the league? Sorry me??? GMs don't pay more for certain positions because they don't understand those positions. That's ridiculous.

So GMs know how difficult each position in football is?

And is it just a coincidence that the "elite" guards play LG based on scoring systems? Do great guards just not play on the right side?

Or is your suspicions based on observations of how others financially value positions more reliable than what a guy who played both positions says?

If we use your method, we can put together a ranking of general positions most difficult to least difficult:
1. QB
2. DE
3. WR
4. CB
5. OL
6. DT
7. RB
8. S
9. TE
10. P/K

We can also conclude that QB is roughly 33% more difficult than DE, nearly twice as difficult as safety and 5 times more difficult than kicking or punting.

Perceived difficulty =/= value. GMs know what positions have more value. A safety might think playing strong safety is more "difficult" than playing strong safety, but that doesn't mean it has more value to a team to play SS than FS. Free safeties typically make more money than strong safeties. So typically, if a safety can play either position at an elite level he's going to play FS in today's NFL (I know it wouldn't matter in the Niners' defense). Left guards don't make a ton more money than right guards, and sometimes they even switch positions. But they do make more money. Left guard is the more valuable position, and if right guards were better players than left guards they would be playing left guard because that's where they'd make more money. It's this simple: the money is on the blind side of the QB. Getting through the OL on the blind side is better than getting through on the other because it's more likely to be a clean hit on the QB instead of chasing a guy who's scrambling. That's why the best pass rushers line up on the right side of the DL. That's why left guards have a more important pass-rush responsibility than right guards do.

Playing WR isn't any more "difficult" than playing WR, but the elite WR is the more valuable player than an elite TE. Ross Verba doesn't negate the principle of supply and demand.

[imac_21]

Perceived difficulty =/= value. GMs know what positions have more value. A safety might think playing strong safety is more "difficult" than playing strong safety, but that doesn't mean it has more value to a team to play SS than FS. Free safeties typically make more money than strong safeties. So typically, if a safety can play either position at an elite level he's going to play FS in today's NFL (I know it wouldn't matter in the Niners' defense). Left guards don't make a ton more money than right guards, and sometimes they even switch positions. But they do make more money. Left guard is the more valuable position, and if right guards were better players than left guards they would be playing left guard because that's where they'd make more money. It's this simple: the money is on the blind side of the QB. Getting through the OL on the blind side is better than getting through on the other because it's more likely to be a clean hit on the QB instead of chasing a guy who's scrambling. That's why the best pass rushers line up on the right side of the DL. That's why left guards have a more important pass-rush responsibility than right guards do.

Playing WR isn't any more "difficult" than playing WR, but the elite WR is the more valuable player than an elite TE. Ross Verba doesn't negate the principle of supply and demand.

Do you want to take both sides in this discussion? GM's pay more to LG because they have more responsibility in pass pro, even though a guy that has played RG and LG has said RG has more responsibility.

Let's take it back the basics here. RG is more difficult and gets less help than LG in pass pro. This info comes from a man who played all 3 interior OL positions in the NFL.

Your argument is that LG has more responsibility because they get paid more.

You also state that "perceived difficulty =/= value," but argue that LG gets more money because it has more responsibility. Does this mean LG is more difficult than RG and everything Tucker said is wrong? Your evidence being . . . LGs make more. . . but remember. . . perceived difficulty =/= value. Don't get dizzy in the circle you're arguing around.

Also, and importantly, Iupati has sucked in pass pro.

*Edit*

The two "big money" LGs also got their "big money" contracts from new teams. It was Faneca going to Arizona and Hutchinson going to Minnesota. The teams that actually knew their responsibilities considered those contracts to be too much (the Hutch one has other issues as well, but ultimately, the Seahawks deemed him not worth the contract).

[NinerSickness]

Do you want to take both sides in this discussion? GM's pay more to LG because they have more responsibility in pass pro, even though a guy that has played RG and LG has said RG has more responsibility.

Let's take it back the basics here. RG is more difficult and gets less help than LG in pass pro. This info comes from a man who played all 3 interior OL positions in the NFL.

Your argument is that LG has more responsibility because they get paid more.

You also state that "perceived difficulty =/= value," but argue that LG gets more money because it has more responsibility. Does this mean LG is more difficult than RG and everything Tucker said is wrong? Your evidence being . . . LGs make more. . . but remember. . . perceived difficulty =/= value. Don't get dizzy in the circle you're arguing around.

I said the LG is usually a better athlete; I didn't say he has "more" pass-protection responsibility. You're putting words in my mouth. I also never said the LG blocks one on one more often than the RG does. I said the LG goes up against better pass rushers than the RG does. Going one on one against a DL more often doesn't mean you're a better pass protector than the guy on the other side of the center. Any way you shake it the LG is more valuable than the RG. GMs aren't stupid.

The amount of money a player makes is a better indicator of his value than what Ross Verba said like ten years ago.

[imac_21]

Do you want to take both sides in this discussion? GM's pay more to LG because they have more responsibility in pass pro, even though a guy that has played RG and LG has said RG has more responsibility.

Let's take it back the basics here. RG is more difficult and gets less help than LG in pass pro. This info comes from a man who played all 3 interior OL positions in the NFL.

Your argument is that LG has more responsibility because they get paid more.

You also state that "perceived difficulty =/= value," but argue that LG gets more money because it has more responsibility. Does this mean LG is more difficult than RG and everything Tucker said is wrong? Your evidence being . . . LGs make more. . . but remember. . . perceived difficulty =/= value. Don't get dizzy in the circle you're arguing around.

I said the LG is usually a better athlete; I didn't say he has "more" pass-protection responsibility. You're putting words in my mouth. I also never said the LG blocks one on one more often than the RG does. I said the LG goes up against better pass rushers than the RG does. Going one on one against a DL more often doesn't mean you're a better pass protector than the guy on the other side of the center. Any way you shake it the LG is more valuable than the RG. GMs aren't stupid.

The amount of money a player makes is a better indicator of his value than what Ross Verba said like ten years ago.

Post #13 in this thread:

Keep in mind, LG typically has a higher level of pass-protection responsibility than RG does; usually the LG is the better athlete.

Apparently you don't even know what you're arguing. Unless you want to make a case that "higher level" does not mean "more."

[NinerSickness]

Post #13 in this thread:

Keep in mind, LG typically has a higher level of pass-protection responsibility than RG does; usually the LG is the better athlete.

Apparently you don't even know what you're arguing. Unless you want to make a case that "higher level" does not mean "more."

You don't know what you're arguing. Ross Verba says the RG has "more" pass-protection responsibility because the RG goes one on one more often. I'm arguing that the the LG has a higher level of pass-protection responsibility because the LG has to face better pass rushers. I explained that quite clearly. The LG is usually the better pass protector than the RG for this reason even if the center helps him more often.

And think about it for a second: why would the center come over and help against the lesser of the two pass rushers more often? The center comes over to help more than he does on the right, but both guys are blocking one-one-one on a regular basis, and they're not going to put the lesser of the pass-protectors on the blind side.

[imac_21]

Post #13 in this thread:

Keep in mind, LG typically has a higher level of pass-protection responsibility than RG does; usually the LG is the better athlete.

Apparently you don't even know what you're arguing. Unless you want to make a case that "higher level" does not mean "more."

You don't know what you're arguing. Ross Verba says the RG has "more" pass-protection responsibility because the RG goes one on one more often. I'm arguing that the the LG has a higher level of pass-protection responsibility because the LG has to face better pass rushers. I explained that quite clearly. The LG is usually the better pass protector than the RG for this reason even if the center helps him more often.

And think about it for a second: why would the center come over and help against the lesser of the two pass rushers more often? The center comes over to help more than he does on the right, but both guys are blocking one-one-one on a regular basis, and they're not going to put the lesser of the pass-protectors on the blind side.

It's not even Ross Verba, but keep pretending you read the article.

[NinerSickness]

It's not even Ross Verba, but keep pretending you read the article.

I read the article like a decade ago, and I read a little bit of it when you posted it again. But kudos to you 'mac. I know that you get enormous thrills out of pointing out any and all errors, and you caught me making one. I mistook Ross Tucker for Ross Verba. Which, in your mind, means I've never read the article somehow.

So I stand corrected. It's Ross Tucker's opinion about O-linemen that negates decades of precedent set by the greatest personnel minds on planet earth. Not Ross Verba. Now you can sleep tonight.

[NinerSickness]

Nathan Jahnke:

WR Stevie Johnson is 4th in the league in Yards Per Route Run at 2.73, behind AJ Green/Steve Smith/Jordy Nelson. Just 1 snap so far tonight

[zman1]

From Matt Barrows:

"At wide receiver, Michael Crabtree and Anquan Boldin again got the lion’s share of the snaps, 61 and 62 respectively, but the Nos. 2 and 3 receivers continue to steal the spotlight. In the two previous weeks, it was Brandon Lloyd who made pivotal plays.

Against the Broncos, Stevie Johnson led all 49ers receivers with five catches for 79 yards and a touchdown. Lloyd had three catches for 63 yards and was the target on the only passes that Kaepernick threw deep. Lloyd played 43 snaps, Johnson 25.

Boldin leads the team with 447 receiving yards. Next is Crabtree with 322 yards, but right behind him is Johnson with 315 yards. This despite the fact that Crabtree has played more than double the number of snaps as Johnson, 352 to 147."

[NinerSickness]

Stevie Johnson now has 3.18 yards per route run, which is 2nd in the NFL.

[49er4life1979]

Crabtree

It's not to knock on Stevie but he's getting a lot of benefit from defenses focusing on Crabs, Boldin and VD (when he's in there).

I wouldn't be devastated if we moved on from Crabtree next season but I wouldn't mind signing him to an incentive laden contract either.

Ideally we replace Crabtree with a true deep threat because right now our WR corp is full of redundancy and our offense could absolutely be devastating with a deep threat and some better pass protection up front.

I agree about the incentive laden contract part. Especially considering that Boldin is not getting any younger and we only have him one more season.

[zman1]

And speed is an asset at WR.

You wanted to bench him for Bruce Ellington. Bruce Ellington has shown nothing in the offense. If he's not bad, why bench him for someone that hasn't shown anything? "For a deep threat" you say? Ellington hasn't shown the ability to be a deep threat.

"Speed is an asset at WR." Absolutely, but it's not the only one. Ellington is faster than Crabtree, but at this point Crabtree does EVERYTHING else better than Ellington.

As for going deep, we did thrice last week, each time to noted speed demon Brandon Lloyd. One was miscommunication, the other two were key completions that Lloyd made happen with . . . . his blazing speed? Ellington makes neither of those plays. As I've said multiple times, speed =/= deep threat.

Cardinals John Brown Burns Eagles on 75 Yard TD Catch (Video)

https://v.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/1969111BEC1138300910322552832_2a6d33b8020.5.1.1561694679498021916.mp4?versionId=YG_vQ_VwxBkQKQJFa_AOSCqxXsC3XyyB

[zman1]

From Maiocco:

"Michael Crabtree, whom Jim Harbaugh once said had “the best hands I've ever seen on a wide receiver,” leads the 49ers wide receivers in dropped passes through seven games. According to Pro Football Focus, Crabtree has dropped five of 37 catch-able balls, giving him a 13.51 percent drop rate, which also is the worst among the team's wideouts.

Stevie Johnson has the best drop rate on the team – 3.85 – in hauling in 25 of 26 catch-able balls, followed by Anquan Boldin (39-42, three drops) and Brandon Lloyd (10 of 11, one drop), according to PFF."

[NinerSickness]

From Maiocco:

"Michael Crabtree, whom Jim Harbaugh once said had “the best hands I've ever seen on a wide receiver,” leads the 49ers wide receivers in dropped passes through seven games. According to Pro Football Focus, Crabtree has dropped five of 37 catch-able balls, giving him a 13.51 percent drop rate, which also is the worst among the team's wideouts.

Stevie Johnson has the best drop rate on the team – 3.85 – in hauling in 25 of 26 catch-able balls, followed by Anquan Boldin (39-42, three drops) and Brandon Lloyd (10 of 11, one drop), according to PFF."

lol yeah. I'm the biggest Harbaugh fan there is, and even I knew he was just being full of crap and pumping Crabby up by saying that.

[49er4life1979]

This is ridiculous. Crabtree is the best WR on the team. Zman, last week you wanted him benched for Ellington because you're under the impression that speed = deep threat.

Sick has decided he doesn't want Crabtree on the team because he wants us to re-sign our worst pass blocking OL to that 8M per year contract.

Not wanting Crabtree back is fine, but let's not start treating him like he's a bad player.

First of all, how is Crabtree better than Boldin right now? Boldin has been and still is FAR more consistent. That probably has a lot to do with the fact that Boldin is more durable.

Second of all, Crabtree is not a bad player. I don't think anyone thinks that. But having both Boldin and Stevie makes him expendable IMO.

Third of all, I want Iupati back regardless of whether Crabtree re-signs or not. And I don't want Crabtree back (unless he signs for like 5 million a season, which would never happen IMO) regardless of whether Iupati re-signs or not. Those opinions are independent of each other.

Fourth of all (unrelated to the topic), I would MUCH rather have an all pro' left guard and 2 1000-yard receivers than not have the all-pro' guard and have 3 1000-yard receivers.

Ninersickness with all due respect, Iupati is likely gone after the season.

[NinerSickness]

Ninersickness with all due respect, Iupati is likely gone after the season.

I completely agree that is likely the case; I just hope It's not. Luckily, I think Brandon Thomas was a huge steal in the draft, and he's gonna be really good IMO.

[imac_21]

And speed is an asset at WR.

You wanted to bench him for Bruce Ellington. Bruce Ellington has shown nothing in the offense. If he's not bad, why bench him for someone that hasn't shown anything? "For a deep threat" you say? Ellington hasn't shown the ability to be a deep threat.

"Speed is an asset at WR." Absolutely, but it's not the only one. Ellington is faster than Crabtree, but at this point Crabtree does EVERYTHING else better than Ellington.

As for going deep, we did thrice last week, each time to noted speed demon Brandon Lloyd. One was miscommunication, the other two were key completions that Lloyd made happen with . . . . his blazing speed? Ellington makes neither of those plays. As I've said multiple times, speed =/= deep threat.

Cardinals John Brown Burns Eagles on 75 Yard TD Catch (Video)

https://v.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/1969111BEC1138300910322552832_2a6d33b8020.5.1.1561694679498021916.mp4?versionId=YG_vQ_VwxBkQKQJFa_AOSCqxXsC3XyyB

You need to complete a pass down field. Make your pick for your WR:

Alshon Jeffrey
John Brown

[zman1]

You wanted to bench him for Bruce Ellington. Bruce Ellington has shown nothing in the offense. If he's not bad, why bench him for someone that hasn't shown anything? "For a deep threat" you say? Ellington hasn't shown the ability to be a deep threat.

"Speed is an asset at WR." Absolutely, but it's not the only one. Ellington is faster than Crabtree, but at this point Crabtree does EVERYTHING else better than Ellington.

As for going deep, we did thrice last week, each time to noted speed demon Brandon Lloyd. One was miscommunication, the other two were key completions that Lloyd made happen with . . . . his blazing speed? Ellington makes neither of those plays. As I've said multiple times, speed =/= deep threat.

Cardinals John Brown Burns Eagles on 75 Yard TD Catch (Video)

https://v.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/1969111BEC1138300910322552832_2a6d33b8020.5.1.1561694679498021916.mp4?versionId=YG_vQ_VwxBkQKQJFa_AOSCqxXsC3XyyB

You need to complete a pass down field. Make your pick for your WR:

Alshon Jeffrey
John Brown

Where did Michael Crabtree go?

[zman1]

Garsh, Crabs only playing on 3rd downs now? Thought he was our bestest.