NBA ChoK16 - the Rich Cho Thread

catch20two · Post #481 » by **catch20two** » Sun Jan 4, 2015 11:55 pm

BrotherDave wrote:Cho is probably the best GM in franchise (new) history. He just shouldn't be allowed near a draft board.

He's prolly responsible for reaching on Russell Westbrook and taking Serge Ibaka in OKC so he declares himself a genius.

catch20two · Post #482 » by **catch20two** » Sun Jan 4, 2015 11:59 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
catch20two wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:No if last summer he traded for Afflalo like you've been begging for and Afflalo came in and shot 34% like he has this year, that would be on Cho?

Afflalo is overrated. I didn't want him unless it was strictly a swap for Hendo and maybe a late pick included.

The point is when your GM consistently acquires pieces that have demonstrated three point shooting ability, saying that it's his fault when they struggle to integrate and then continuing to argue that the GM doesn't understand the value of perimeter shooting is a bad argument. He was the one that brought in Tolliver, CDR and McRoberts in the first place. He signed a bunch of guys with perimeter shooting ability this offseason. Nothing about that says he doesn't get the value of perimeter shooting.

Oh I'm sure that Cho "try" to make the team perimeter shooting better but his talent evaluation skills are either porous or he intentionally brought in crappy shooters so that his plan to tank into more draft picks could continue in a stealth manner. He might be that clever.

Post #483 » by **yosemiteben** » Mon Jan 5, 2015 12:19 am

Well Roberts and Marvin are both currently our best regular rotation perimeter shooters, so it's not like he totally struck out.

Post #484 » by **JDR720** » Mon Jan 5, 2015 12:22 am

MasterIchiro wrote:Despite needing shooting for the past 3-4 years, this is Cho's result

Neal - .301
M. Williams - .357
Roberts - .358
Hairston - .290

That's why I'm holding him accountable for passing on K. Thompson, Beal and McLemore.

His inability to secure shooting talent spans multiple years, multiple players and multiple drafts, trade deadlines and free agencies.

You left out Tolliver, who had his best 3pt season ever in Charlotte, CDR had his best 3pt shooting season ever, McBob has his best season ever. He got Ben Gordon who is a very good shooter (who knew he would go crazy). He traded for Neal (40% last season and his career) and Luke who shot 37% in Milwaukee before Charlotte. Drafted PJ whose best talent is shooting and Jeff who shot over 40% his senior year. Marvin is a solid shooter for a PF and Rob is a career 37% 3pt shooter.

Passed on Klay (11th pick) who wouldn't have got picked? Kemba or Biz? My guess is Kemba because we needed a center we already had DJ at PG and Gerald at SG who we just used the 9th and 12th picks on.

IMO MKG is better than Beal and more impactful when healthy, note Beal has missed more games than MKG for his career, I actually wanted T-Rob, glad that didn't happen.

McLemore was a pile of trash his rookie year and Zeller can add a 3pt shot, he has made several deep 2's jut needs to step back a foot or two more.

EDIT: Also picked Vonleh, who shot near 50% from 3 in college and has made a good number of them from NBA range (Summer league/D-League and the Mavs game)

Post #485 » by **yosemiteben** » Mon Jan 5, 2015 12:25 am

Honestly I'm ok if people want to criticize Cho's drafting. I might disagree, but I get it. However, saying Cho is a stupid GM that doesn't get the value of perimeter shooting is a completely untenable argument based on his track record here IMO.

catch20two · Post #486 » by **catch20two** » Mon Jan 5, 2015 12:26 am

yosemiteben wrote:Well Roberts and Marvin are both currently our best regular rotation perimeter shooters, so it's not like he totally struck out.

Lol. That's a strike out since neither of them are a legit threat.

Post #487 » by **yosemiteben** » Mon Jan 5, 2015 12:29 am

catch20two wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:Well Roberts and Marvin are both currently our best regular rotation perimeter shooters, so it's not like he totally struck out.

Lol. That's a strike out since neither of them are a legit threat.

Roberts is a career 40% three point shooter. He is having a down year and is still one our two best shooters. That is not evidence that Cho doesn't get that this team needs perimeter shooting.

catch20two · Post #488 » by **catch20two** » Mon Jan 5, 2015 12:32 am

yosemiteben wrote:
catch20two wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:Well Roberts and Marvin are both currently our best regular rotation perimeter shooters, so it's not like he totally struck out.

Lol. That's a strike out since neither of them are a legit threat.

Roberts is a career 40% three point shooter. He is having a down year and is still one our two best shooters. That is not evidence that Cho doesn't get that this team needs perimeter shooting.

I never said that Cho doesn't get the value of perimeter shooting, that's Ichiro. I said that maybe he's not good at spotting the right 3pt shooters before signing them on the dotted line. Teams don't even respect Roberts nor Marv from there like that.

MasterIchiro · Post #489 » by **MasterIchiro** » Mon Jan 5, 2015 12:44 am

catch20two wrote:
I never said that Cho doesn't get the value of perimeter shooting, that's Ichiro.

Biz was selected as a future starter (obviously a 5 but nevertheless a lottery pick that was not a perimeter threat and selected ahead of Klay Thompson)
MKG was selected as a starter at the 3 who can't shoot a 3.
Hendo was given 3 years, starter money, at the 2 who can't shoot a 3. He can't give him away.
Zeller was drafted as starter at the 4 who can't shoot a 3.

On top of this Cho talked MJ off McLemore.

Maybe Cho understands the value of perimeter shooting BUT

This is not reflected in players chosen (signed or drafted) by Cho to be starters.

Kemba (MJ)
Hendo
MKG
Zeller
Biz

Cho seems to understand the value of perimeter shooting but he seems to place too high a value on "athleticism", "energy", "character" and other BS words that ignore skill. There is no demand and never was any for Neal, Roberts and M. Williams.

These are 2nd rate shooters in a league that got much better at shooting.

Post #490 » by **Diop** » Mon Jan 5, 2015 12:45 am

we complain about our defence now, how would it go starting Beal and Kemba??

MasterIchiro · Post #491 » by **MasterIchiro** » Mon Jan 5, 2015 12:48 am

Sachmo wrote:we complain about our defence now, how would it go starting Beal and Kemba??

Is there something wrong with the Wizards record or performance in last year's playoffs?

Post #492 » by **Diop** » Mon Jan 5, 2015 12:50 am

MasterIchiro wrote:
Sachmo wrote:we complain about our defence now, how would it go starting Beal and Kemba??

Is there something wrong with the Wizards record or performance in last year's playoffs?

difference is they have a point guard who is big enough to defend the occasional shooting guard, that's why Beal was such a good spot for him.

MKGsMotor · Post #493 » by **MKGsMotor** » Mon Jan 5, 2015 1:01 am

yosemiteben wrote:
catch20two wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:Well Roberts and Marvin are both currently our best regular rotation perimeter shooters, so it's not like he totally struck out.

Lol. That's a strike out since neither of them are a legit threat.

Roberts is a career 40% three point shooter. He is having a down year and is still one our two best shooters. That is not evidence that Cho doesn't get that this team needs perimeter shooting.

he might get it. But its been our biggest problem for 4 years now.

Post #494 » by **yosemiteben** » Mon Jan 5, 2015 1:09 am

MKGsMotor wrote:he might get it. But its been our biggest problem for 4 years now.

And he has taken overt measures to address it. Don't see anyone bitching about how he address the issue last season.

When we started the season, we had Lance (who projected to be an improvement from the perimeter over Hendo) and Marvin (replacing McBob's perimeter threat) in the starting lineup alongwith MKG 2.0 fresh off a summer in the gym with Price who could be replaced by Neal during the course of the game if more outside shooting was required. Then we signed a backup PG that is a solid shooter, drafted a big that has potential as a shooter and drafted another wing labeled as an NBA ready shooter.

I have to note the irony of how we've flipped from complaining about our over the top emphasis on spacing and using Al to now saying Cho doesn't want shooters.

Post #495 » by **JDR720** » Mon Jan 5, 2015 1:27 am

We dont need to be some elite 3pt shooting team like Houston or GS to be a good (proved last season). Hell look at Memphis, they make less 3's per game than we do and they are a top 5 team in the NBA. We shouldn't emphasise #spacing so much, it isn't a strength of the team we should attack the rim and get a crap load of FT's, screw #spacing. Win with elite defensive play, ball movement and rim attacking. We can draft couple shooters in the draft like LeVert or Hezonja and the 2nd round.

catch20two · Post #496 » by **catch20two** » Mon Jan 5, 2015 1:30 am

JDR720 wrote:We dont need to be some elite 3pt shooting team like Houston or GS to be a good (proved last season). Hell look at Memphis, they make less 3's per game than we do and they are a top 5 team in the NBA. We shouldn't emphasise #spacing so much, it isn't a strength of the team we should attack the rim and get a crap load of FT's, screw #spacing. Win with elite defensive play, ball movement and rim attacking. We can draft couple shooters in the draft like LeVert or Hezonja and the 2nd round.

Totally agree and that's where Clifford get more blame than Cho from me because although we don't have no scorers and shooters we do have competitors that we can still win with but Clifford is too stubborn and idiotic to follow suit.

MasterIchiro · Post #497 » by **MasterIchiro** » Mon Jan 5, 2015 6:16 am

JDR720 wrote:We dont need to be some elite 3pt shooting team like Houston or GS to be a good (proved last season). Hell look at Memphis, they make less 3's per game than we do and they are a top 5 team in the NBA. We shouldn't emphasise #spacing so much, it isn't a strength of the team we should attack the rim and get a crap load of FT's, screw #spacing. Win with elite defensive play, ball movement and rim attacking. We can draft couple shooters in the draft like LeVert or Hezonja and the 2nd round.

You have selected an exception which by its very nature would be a tough blueprint to duplicate. They have Gasol, Randolph as their main weapons, very unique players who disrupt defenses. Then you have Conley who is lightening quick.

Of the top 10 3pt% shooting teams, 80% of them are playoff teams, 20% are not.

Of the bottom 10 3pt% shooting teams, 80% of them are not playoff teams, 20% are.

There is a strong positive correlation between 3pt% and team success/failure in today's NBA.

You don't need it, but that would make you an exception.

And if you didn't stockpile it on your roster and the results of your efforts are the 2014-2015 Hornets W-L record, then you definitely need to stand before the firing squad.

MasterIchiro · Post #498 » by **MasterIchiro** » Mon Jan 5, 2015 6:21 am

Or you can just ignore the NBA trends and correlations because you have one piece of evidence that conflicts with the mountains of data out there - 3pt shooting does not cause wins for the Memphis Grizz.

Illmatic12 · Post #499 » by **Illmatic12** » Mon Jan 5, 2015 12:14 pm

Sachmo wrote:
MasterIchiro wrote:
Sachmo wrote:we complain about our defence now, how would it go starting Beal and Kemba??

Is there something wrong with the Wizards record or performance in last year's playoffs?

difference is they have a point guard who is big enough to defend the occasional shooting guard, that's why Beal was such a good spot for him.

Beal's been a very solid defender for Washington, who is ranked 5th in DRTG this season. He's not a super-athletic lockdown guy (like your own MKG) but he's focused and rarely out of position on team defense. He neutralized Jimmy Butler and Lance Stephenson in the playoffs last year, despite carrying a large offensive load himself he never took a play off.

Wall hiding Beal on defense has happened exactly 0 times, can't ever remember seeing JW guard an SG with Beal on the floor. Bradley Beal is actually a pretty smart, active all-around player who does a lot even when he's not scoring. Which is his main problem btw, his shot is still very streaky inside the arc. Just looking at Beal's game logs,

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_ ... adley-beal

His scoring is up and down as he's adjusting to receiving significantly more defensive attention this season. But whether his shot is on that game or not he is rebounding well for an SG, playing the passing lanes and getting steals, moving the ball and racking up assists, sometimes even chasedown blocks etc. Very heady player. If Beal gets better at consistently scoring off the dribble he's going to be a great 2-guard in the league. Just needs to stay healthy, as its a bit worrisome to me that he seemingly gets random injuries every year.

You guys have a really good forum btw. Reminds me of the Wiz forum, not a whole lot of hype/noise/clutter like some forums but a good group of solid, knowledgeable posters.

Illmatic12 · Post #500 » by **Illmatic12** » Mon Jan 5, 2015 12:16 pm

Also (and sorry to invade your board if I'm not welcome), a question I've had for Hornets fans for a while.. why does MKG not get more minutes/touches? There's this vibe I've gotten that Charlotte is treating him with kid gloves or something, the dude was a #2 overall pick.

Like am I crazy for thinking he couldn't be averaging like 12-14ppg right now just off of slashing, transition, backdoor cuts, mismatches on smaller guys etc? And he could be drawing a lot of fouls too just off of being more aggressive + physical than opponents, that's how the league is calling fouls these days. Look at Harden and now Jimmy Butler, they get foul calls off pure strength and forcing guys to hack them. MKG should study Jimmy Butler's game exactly this summer and copy it. He could be better than Butler actually if he elevates his game at an earlier age.