More trade value: Giannis Antetokounmpo or Ty Lawson?

[bondom34]

The whole I know more than you thing gets really lame no matter what the board is.

You're a mod? Come on man, I'm not claiming I know more! I'm asking for someone to actually argue that he's not top 6! No one has!

You could argue it. Honestly I don't know if I care enough to really debate back and forth, but a basic arguement:

1-3 = CP3, Curry, Westbrook in some order. Not debatable to me.

After that, I'd group: Lawson, Conley, Wall, Lillard, Teague, Lowry

So he's gotta be top 3 in that group.

http://bkref.com/tiny/kuM0n For this season only.

Lawson ranks:
Last in DBPM
5th in OBPM
5th in assist percentage
3rd in TO percentage
3rd in TS
4th in PER

ESPN has him 6th in WAR, but 10th in RPM adjusted for minutes. Westbrook for one is behind in WAR but ahead in RPM and I certainly don't put Conley ahead of him.

So, its debatable but not certain.

[BBallFreak]

The whole I know more than you thing gets really lame no matter what the board is.

You're a mod? Come on man, I'm not claiming I know more! I'm asking for someone to actually argue that he's not top 6! No one has!

You could argue it. Honestly I don't know if I care enough to really debate back and forth, but a basic arguement:

1-3 = CP3, Curry, Westbrook in some order. Not debatable to me.

After that, I'd group: Lawson, Conley, Wall, Lillard, Teague, Lowry

So he's gotta be top 3 in that group.

http://bkref.com/tiny/kuM0n For this season only.

Lawson ranks:
Last in DBPM
5th in OBPM
5th in assist percentage
3rd in TO percentage
3rd in TS
4th in PER

ESPN has him 6th in WAR, but 10th in RPM adjusted for minutes. Westbrook for one is behind in WAR but ahead in RPM and I certainly don't put Conley ahead of him.

So, its debatable but not certain.

That's absolutely fine. I think player rankings are always going to be somewhat subjective. It really does depend on what you value from which position. Some want their point guard to score more, play stalwart defense, create for others, shoot and get out of the way, or lead their team in every category imaginable. Thanks for actually engaging in the discussion, rather than attempting the gotcha moment that seems to be so popular in this thread...

[H2tObes]

He's 27 years old. He's got 4 or 5 very strong, productive years left in him...

If Giannis continues to improve at the rate he has, he should be a more impactful player than Lawson in two years. He already is a good defender with tons of defensive potential where as Lawson doesn't have much of an impact on the defensive end due to his size. Giannis looks skilled in everything beside his shooting right now. He was a decent 3 pt shooter last year, but he grew a few inches and he was forced to change his form. He actually has good form, but he's inconsistent with it. I don't see why Giannis couldn't grow to become a good shooter given a few seasons of practicing his shot.

There's just so much potential when you're talking about Giannis when you already know what you get with Lawson, even though what you get with Lawson is good, you know what you're getting. We're talking about trade value here so potential is a massive part of what makes up a 20 year olds trade value.

I get that. I just don't agree with it. Potential and a bag of potato chips still gets you a bag of potato chips. Potential got Darko Millicic drafted over Dwyane Wade, Carmelo Anthony, and Chris Bosh.

Look, you guys believe G is going to be amazing. He might. That's great. No argument here. I just know, from too much experience with this league, that potential means nothing.

I concede the point. G has more trade value. Do I agree with it? Hell no, nor will I until he realizes the potential...

Giannis looks as good as you could have hoped to this point and then some. He's 20 year old. It's like arguing Paul Millsap has a higher trade value than Andrew Wiggins because Millsap is better right now. Potential to be great is important, star power is everything in this league

[bondom34]

This did just make me look at contracts for those guys, Conley's underpaid too.

[Blame Rasho]

The whole I know more than you thing gets really lame no matter what the board is.

You're a mod? Come on man, I'm not claiming I know more! I'm asking for someone to actually argue that he's not top 6! No one has!

Look at me! I am using exclamation points! I need answers!

Yes I am a mod and more reasonable when people disagree with me unlike some others.

There have been plenty of reasons why people assert the idea that Antetokoumpo has a greater trade value. They have been posted and your response has been the same

You don't get it...

And

Wow, Lawson is just criminally underrated. I'm sorry, but their's no other explanation for it...

By default all of us are wrong compared to you.

You getting a hissy fit about a player being so underrated because you think he had a greater trade value than another player and now once that it was established, he is a top 5 now top 6 PG ... and that you will be done with this board. It gets pretty petty. You made a thread to try to support your thoughts and guess what people disagree with you.

[Knosh]

So, you don't see the difference between a 18 and 8 power forward vs. a legit 20 and 10 guy?

If the 20/10 guy is playing more minutes with a higher pace and the 18/8 is the superior defender? No, I don't see much of a difference.

Pace has NEVER counted against a player...ever...when judging them.

Come on, pace didn't cost Steve Nash his MVP awards, nor any of the other countless honors he earned.

So are you saying the 13.5 assists and 22.5 points Lawson gets per 100 possesions are better than the 9.6 assists and 28.5 points Conley gets per 100 possesions, because Denver averages 96.1 possesions per game and Memphis averages 92 possesions per game?

I don't see how Nash's MVPs have anything to do with it. Yes, Phoenix was a high paced team, but I wouldn't know if voters factored that in or not. Nash was great those years, even if you adjust for pace. And even if voters didn't consider it, why does that mean I can't consider it when talking about trade value? T

[BBallFreak]

If Giannis continues to improve at the rate he has, he should be a more impactful player than Lawson in two years. He already is a good defender with tons of defensive potential where as Lawson doesn't have much of an impact on the defensive end due to his size. Giannis looks skilled in everything beside his shooting right now. He was a decent 3 pt shooter last year, but he grew a few inches and he was forced to change his form. He actually has good form, but he's inconsistent with it. I don't see why Giannis couldn't grow to become a good shooter given a few seasons of practicing his shot.

There's just so much potential when you're talking about Giannis when you already know what you get with Lawson, even though what you get with Lawson is good, you know what you're getting. We're talking about trade value here so potential is a massive part of what makes up a 20 year olds trade value.

I get that. I just don't agree with it. Potential and a bag of potato chips still gets you a bag of potato chips. Potential got Darko Millicic drafted over Dwyane Wade, Carmelo Anthony, and Chris Bosh.

Look, you guys believe G is going to be amazing. He might. That's great. No argument here. I just know, from too much experience with this league, that potential means nothing.

I concede the point. G has more trade value. Do I agree with it? Hell no, nor will I until he realizes the potential...

Giannis looks as good as you could have hoped to this point and then some. He's 20 year old. It's like arguing Paul Millsap has a higher trade value than Andrew Wiggins because Millsap is better right now. Potential to be great is important, star power is everything in this league

Right, but star power shouldn't be granted. It should be earned. You're ready to anoint G. I want him to take it. Until he's better than Millsap, he's not a star.

[BBallFreak]

If the 20/10 guy is playing more minutes with a higher pace and the 18/8 is the superior defender? No, I don't see much of a difference.

Pace has NEVER counted against a player...ever...when judging them.

Come on, pace didn't cost Steve Nash his MVP awards, nor any of the other countless honors he earned.

So are you saying the 13.5 assists and 22.5 points Lawson gets per 100 possesions are better than the 9.6 assists and 28.5 points Conley gets per 100 possesions, because Denver averages 96.1 possesions per game and Memphis averages 92 possesions per game?

I don't see how Nash's MVPs have anything to do with it. Yes, Phoenix was a high paced team, but I wouldn't know if voters factored that in or not. Nash was great those years, even if you adjust for pace. And even if voters didn't consider it, why does that mean I can't consider it when talking about trade value? T

Wait, you're factoring in pace for trade value, now? I thought you were factoring in pace for point guard rankings. Silly me!

And you do have to consider that, not every point guard CAN play at that kind of pace. Theirs a reason Steve Nash was the perfect point guard for the Suns, just like theirs a reason that Denver can go at the pace they do. It's because of Ty Lawson. Guy is a good player.

And yes, Lawson's per 100 numbers are better than Conley's, and sometimes what separates one player from another is rather negligible...

[WhatsaTDot]

There are so many strawmen built in this thread the title should have a fire hazard attached to it.

[Knosh]

Wait, you're factoring in pace for trade value, now? I thought you were factoring in pace for point guard rankings. Silly me!

As I said before: If I were to rank PGs, I would have Lawson somewhere between 7 and 15. The 5 guys you have ahead of him as well as Lowry being my top 6. I wouldn't base my ranking purely on points and assists per game, because among other things pace would skew things.

And you do have to consider that, not every point guard CAN play at that kind of pace. Theirs a reason Steve Nash was the perfect point guard for the Suns, just like theirs a reason that Denver can go at the pace they do. It's because of Ty Lawson. Guy is a good player.

That's a fair point. At the same time, players at other positions might also prefer to play at a slower pace and certain teams with said personell might prefer other PGs over Lawson because of it.

And yes, Lawson's per 100 numbers are better than Conley's, and sometimes what separates one player from another is rather negligible...

That's all I'm trying to get across really... I have no problem with you saying Lawson is the 7th best PG. I also don't have a problem with the next guy saying he is 15th. And because the separation between those players is negligible, their trade value is deflated.

[Dcebucks11]

Think there needs to be a new thread.. Where does Lawson rank among leagues best PGs

[eathb_au]

lol @ defense. PG "defense" is almost worthless in today's league. How many of the top PGs today actually lock each other down? Almost every single time they put up their averages at the least and the better PG game is the one that had the better offensive game, not because they shut down the other guy.

[Narf]

lol @ defense. PG "defense" is almost worthless in today's league. How many of the top PGs today actually lock each other down? Almost every single time they put up their averages at the least and the better PG game is the one that had the better offensive game, not because they shut down the other guy.

Steals, defensive rebounding, and help defense matter too. I hope you know it's not actually possibly for point guards to almost always put up "at least their averages".

[damecurry]

I'm amazed people think it's a toss-up or situationally based situation. Giannis is 6'11" and quick enough to play the two guard. He's averaging 12/6 in 28 mpg in a role where he's definitely not the primary offensive option in his sophmore year and is widely considered a top-notch defender. If he ever figures out how to shoot he'll be a multi-all-star easy, maybe a true franchise guy.
Ty Lawson is a nice player, I like pass-first points who can still score. But he's not a defender and is likely at his peak.
Then factor in contracts and the fact this is a wing-thin, point-guard-heavy league I don't see it as even close honestly. Sure if you're a contender who badly needs a point guard (don't think there is a single one irl) you'd value lawson higher than giannis. But aside from that particular scenario it's Ginnais by leaps and bounds...

[HartfordWhalers]

There are so many strawmen built in this thread the title should have a fire hazard attached to it.

I chuckled.

I get that. I just don't agree with it. Potential and a bag of potato chips still gets you a bag of potato chips. Potential got Darko Millicic drafted over Dwyane Wade, Carmelo Anthony, and Chris Bosh.

Look, you guys believe G is going to be amazing. He might. That's great. No argument here. I just know, from too much experience with this league, that potential means nothing.

I concede the point. G has more trade value. Do I agree with it? Hell no, nor will I until he realizes the potential...

I'm going to ignore that almost everyone has been really clear that its a chance to reach the potential that is worth more, not some guarantee, just like a 50% chance to win $1,000 might be worth more than a guaranteed $200. And in ignoring this ask, is there really anything else productive that will come from this thread? At this point it feels like no...

[BBallFreak]

Lock the thread if you want. It seems like everything I've said has either been dissected, misinterpreted, or ridiculed. You won't get an argument from me about an early demise to this.

But I do take exception to your analogy. Lawson is only $200? G is a 50% chance at $1000? I would say Lawson would be more like $700 and G's chances are more like 35%.

Does make a difference

[HartfordWhalers]

Lock the thread if you want. It seems like everything I've said has either been dissected, misinterpreted, or ridiculed. You won't get an argument from me about an early demise to this.

But I do take exception to your analogy. Lawson is only $200? G is a 50% chance at $1000? I would say Lawson would be more like $700 and G's chances are more like 35%.

Does make a difference

Well, I'm just glad we are no longer on everyone is assuming Giannis will automatically make it as the misrepresentation of others position.

In terms of actual odds, Giannis at 35% seems solid odds to me. But if Lawson is standardized at 700, then a made Giannis is $2,000, and a missed Giannis is $300, at least for me.

[hege53190]

Lock the thread if you want. It seems like everything I've said has either been dissected, misinterpreted, or ridiculed. You won't get an argument from me about an early demise to this.

But I do take exception to your analogy. Lawson is only $200? G is a 50% chance at $1000? I would say Lawson would be more like $700 and G's chances are more like 35%.

Does make a difference

It is not like Giannis has a 35% chance at a superstar and 65% chance at a bust. You bring up Darko but at 20 years old Giannis has already proven to be a better player than Darko ever was.

Giannis at 20 is averaging 12/6 on 50/20/73 shooting in 28 minutes a game as a SF/PF. Even if he never improves at all he is a solid to back end starter for a playoff calibur team.

Right now I would say Lawson is like sitting on $550 while Giannis is a 30% chance at 300, a 30% chance at 600, a 30% chance at 700, a 5% chance at $850, 3% chance at 925 and a 2% chance at $1,000

And to clarify those levels. 300 is solid starter, 600 is all-star, 700 is multiple time all-star, $850 is all-pro, 925 is multiple time all-pro, and $1,000 is MVP.

[BBallFreak]

Lock the thread if you want. It seems like everything I've said has either been dissected, misinterpreted, or ridiculed. You won't get an argument from me about an early demise to this.

But I do take exception to your analogy. Lawson is only $200? G is a 50% chance at $1000? I would say Lawson would be more like $700 and G's chances are more like 35%.

Does make a difference

Well, I'm just glad we are no longer on everyone is assuming Giannis will automatically make it as the misrepresentation of others position.

In terms of actual odds, Giannis at 35% seems solid odds to me. But if Lawson is standardized at 700, then a made Giannis is $2,000, and a missed Giannis is $300, at least for me.

He's a 17 and 10 point guard who scores in a ridiculous variety of ways. How is he a below average player (if $700 is Lawson and $2000 is superstar that puts Lawson well below average)? You at least gotta see that that doesn't work.

And I'm sorry but your 50% figure didn't help that misinterpretation. Glad you backed off on It a bit. It does seem though that a great majority of posters in this thread do think Giannis is a lock to live up to the hype. It is my belief that, while he might, I know I'm getting a top flight point guard in Lawson and that I would give up more for the sure thing.

[HartfordWhalers]

Lock the thread if you want. It seems like everything I've said has either been dissected, misinterpreted, or ridiculed. You won't get an argument from me about an early demise to this.

But I do take exception to your analogy. Lawson is only $200? G is a 50% chance at $1000? I would say Lawson would be more like $700 and G's chances are more like 35%.

Does make a difference

Well, I'm just glad we are no longer on everyone is assuming Giannis will automatically make it as the misrepresentation of others position.

In terms of actual odds, Giannis at 35% seems solid odds to me. But if Lawson is standardized at 700, then a made Giannis is $2,000, and a missed Giannis is $300, at least for me.

He's a 17 and 10 point guard who scores in a ridiculous variety of ways. How is he a below average player (if $700 is Lawson and $2000 is superstar that puts Lawson well below average)? You at least gotta see that that doesn't work.

And I'm sorry but your 50% figure didn't help that misinterpretation. Glad you backed off on It a bit. It does seem though that a great majority of posters in this thread do think Giannis is a lock to live up to the hype. It is my belief that, while he might, I know I'm getting a top flight point guard in Lawson and that I would give up more for the sure thing.

True stars are worth 3 very good but not special players. And I think you are massively ignoring things if that is your take is everyone is saying Giannis is a lock.