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Otto Porter

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Re: Otto Porter 

Post#1801 » by long suffrin' boulez fan » Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:31 pm

dorianwrite wrote:Otto should start over Pierce. I'm not basing this on overall production, but since we all know the pace slows down a lot when Miller is running the offense, it would maximize both players' abilities to switch. Otto would benefit from being able to run up and down with Wall and the starters, and Pierce's better half-court game would probably be more compatible with Miller while giving the reserves some more scoring punch.

It's not like Pierce's minutes would be that much reduced, as he would probably wind up playing with starter/reserve combination units, too. And it would give us a better idea whether Otto can be an NBA starter with the right surrounding teammates.


I'm half on board with this.

I like Otto with the starters, but Pierce in the starting lineup. Notice in the big games, PP will often be super aggressive early - on both sides of the ball - to set the tone.

But Porter should come in as the first sub at about the six minute mark so he can play half a quarter with Wall, Beal and Gortat.

Heck, bring PP back earlier in the 2nd to give the slow 2nd unit some scoring punch.

Let Otto (or Web/Ras - whoever has the hot hand) close the 2nd with the starters.

Or, you know, get a back up pg not in his late 40s to run the second unit.
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Re: Otto Porter 

Post#1802 » by fishercob » Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:24 pm

dorianwrite wrote:Otto should start over Pierce. I'm not basing this on overall production, but since we all know the pace slows down a lot when Miller is running the offense, it would maximize both players' abilities to switch. Otto would benefit from being able to run up and down with Wall and the starters, and Pierce's better half-court game would probably be more compatible with Miller while giving the reserves some more scoring punch.

It's not like Pierce's minutes would be that much reduced, as he would probably wind up playing with starter/reserve combination units, too. And it would give us a better idea whether Otto can be an NBA starter with the right surrounding teammates.



I'd like to see Otto get more time with the 1's. I;d also like to see Otto get time with Pierce -- whether that's a 2/3 or a 3/4 situation.

The person whose minutes Otto should be taking is Rasual Butler's. Whatever drugs he was taking have worn off -- he's 8 of his last 33 from 3 over the past 11 games and brings little else to the table other than shooting. He and Webster should be fighting for minutes; Otto has passed them both.
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Re: Otto Porter 

Post#1803 » by hands11 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:58 pm

Actually, for team like TOR and ATL.

Otto shouldn't replace Paul as a starter. He should start with him and Paul at S4

I would even sub out Beal as a starter for Webster.

Wall, Webster, Otto, Paul, Gortat

Webster is simply a more mature 3 pt shooter who gets up his shot quicker, draw fouls doing it, doesn't shoot long two, gets to his spot and can still rebounds, drive, etc as needed. Beal will get great in 2 years but he is still a young pup that needs to sharpen his game. His 3 ball isn't quick enough. He doesn't look for it enough. He gets run off the 3 line. He turns it over dribbling when he does that. He does lots of other stuff I like and I'm high on his longer term, but for right now, Webster has the game we need out there against these quicker teams that shoot lots of 3s.

Open the floor for Wall drives and Wall and Gortat PnR

Wall, Webster, Otto, Paul, Gortat would be my starting line up tonight.

Randy needs to grow a set and show he understands the game, his players and line ups. And the thing is, with this team/roster, no one would even have a problem with him doing this. They want to win. They are a solid team that likes and supports that goal. Beal won't care. Actually, he might learn something seeing Webster out there doing what he does and then he can replicate it himself. Nene won't care if he comes off the bench.

This team has a roster that allows for great flexibility. This should be the formula for TOR/ATL type teams. They can go power ball on other teams they can get away with it.

Thats the magic of this team. They COULD play both ways. But they don't. At least not yet.

There is a reason we keep going down big time to these teams. There is a constant. And Randy isn't adjusting to it. We all saw what the 2nd unit did to come back last game. He needs to learn from that and feel his inner Pops. He a head coach. Make the moves that need to get made to win.

Cuz going to the same thing over and over and expecting different results isn't insanity.
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Re: Otto Porter 

Post#1804 » by LyricalRico » Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:58 pm

fishercob wrote:I'd like to see Otto get more time with the 1's. I;d also like to see Otto get time with Pierce -- whether that's a 2/3 or a 3/4 situation.


:nod:
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Re: Otto Porter 

Post#1805 » by stevemcqueen1 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:43 pm

Dark Faze wrote:Unpopular opinion: Porter could be better than Beal with enough minutes this year. More efficient and a better defender.

Pierce is super solid so I know why he isn't starting, but it's time to start seeing what we can do to get him going more.


He won't be better than Beal any time soon. Otto is a comparable talent to Beal IMO, but ultimately Beal is a little bit bigger talent. He's a little more athletic than Porter and is a better pure shooter. They're actually pretty similar though, such that I've always felt like Porter is something of a SF version of Beal. Both are high skill players with very smooth games. Both are deceptively excellent athletes. Both smart, extremely instinctive, both good at all aspects of their positions such that there are no major flaws to their game.

Also Beal has the benefit of a TON more experience given they're the same age. Beal got the benefit of having zero competition for minutes at his position as a rookie. His development got fast-tracked from day one and he is going through a growth process right now that Otto is a long ways away from. Otto is still competing to get on the floor and hold down a regular spot in the rotation right now. Beal has gotten to the point now where he's an aggressive and fundamental part of the offense each game now. He's learning how to trigger the offense and be the go to shooter. Otto is a long way from having that kind of responsibility.

To say that Otto can be better than Beal this season means you're taking a very limited view of what "better" means. Saying someone is better at performing in their vastly lesser role doesn't mean a lot in a 1:1 comparison. For example, Kyle Korver is a better 3 and D wing than Russell Westbrook is a first option star-usage PG, but no one in their right minds would claim Korver is better than Westbrook.

Otto is never going to have as large a role as Beal for this team. Beal is going to be a first or second option high volume scorer eventually. Unless we get Durant. In which case Otto's role would be even lesser too. If we don't get Durant, Otto's best case scenario here is as a third option scorer that will play primarily as a 3 and D wing. Granted, he'll be more than just a three and D wing, because he'll be able to get baskets for himself and score in good volume without having plays run for him. He'll score a lot of hustle buckets because that's a big part of his game. And he will do some shot creation and playmaking for line ups because it's a strong part of his repertoire.

But supplanting Beal and becoming a high volume scorer and the first or second option for the team... I just don't see that potential in Otto.
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Re: Otto Porter 

Post#1806 » by stevemcqueen1 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:55 pm

long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:
dorianwrite wrote:Otto should start over Pierce. I'm not basing this on overall production, but since we all know the pace slows down a lot when Miller is running the offense, it would maximize both players' abilities to switch. Otto would benefit from being able to run up and down with Wall and the starters, and Pierce's better half-court game would probably be more compatible with Miller while giving the reserves some more scoring punch.

It's not like Pierce's minutes would be that much reduced, as he would probably wind up playing with starter/reserve combination units, too. And it would give us a better idea whether Otto can be an NBA starter with the right surrounding teammates.


I'm half on board with this.

I like Otto with the starters, but Pierce in the starting lineup. Notice in the big games, PP will often be super aggressive early - on both sides of the ball - to set the tone.

But Porter should come in as the first sub at about the six minute mark so he can play half a quarter with Wall, Beal and Gortat.

Heck, bring PP back earlier in the 2nd to give the slow 2nd unit some scoring punch.

Let Otto (or Web/Ras - whoever has the hot hand) close the 2nd with the starters.

Or, you know, get a back up pg not in his late 40s to run the second unit.


Good post. Agreed on all points.

PP is a limited minutes player no matter what, so making him an early sub and bringing Porter in as the sixth man off the bench makes the most sense to me. I like your idea of subbing Pierce out at the 6 minute mark, and I'd add that we should do the same for Nene.

Then like you say, bring Pierce back in early in the second to bolster the bench with some scoring and playmaking ability. Dre + Beal + Pierce + Humphries + Seraphin should have plenty of ability to score. Then like you said, work Porter back in with Wall, Nene, Beal, and Gortat to close out the half. That'd put Pierce at around 12 minutes or so in the first half, with Porter getting the other 12.

Then for the second half, you give Porter one long stretch ending the third through the first half of the fourth quarter and then bring Pierce back in at around the 5 or 6 minute mark and let him close out the game. That'd be about 25 minutes total for Pierce and about 23 total for Porter (unless either get minutes at the 2 or 4). In fact, with our SG situation being so thin, Porter should probably be getting minutes there to bring him up to around 25-26 MPG too. Sixth man minutes. That's the best way to use him IMO.
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Re: Otto Porter 

Post#1807 » by Ruzious » Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:22 pm

Porter and Beal are pretty much equal - right now - as players. Porter's slightly more efficient - using eFG, TS%, and turnover rates, while Beal is slightly more productive - but it wouldn't surprise me if his production is higher just because he's taken more shots. Porter should be getting an increase in minutes - whether it's with the starters, reserves, or a combination - just get him more minutes.
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Re: Otto Porter 

Post#1808 » by Illmatic12 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:30 pm

Porter wouldn't be doing what he's doing if he was facing Beal's defensive attention (obviously). Brad has been defended as a #1 option since last year's playoffs.

Put Paul George or Jimmy Butler on Otto and see if he gets you 20/5/5 in a playoff series.. Otto being better than Beal is such a stupid argument/tangent to even bring up :lol:



Porter did pretty well against the Raptors last game even though we were getting blown out, I hope Randy rolls with him for 20-25+min. If he gets his jumpshot going from three this season (which he definitely has the ability to do) he's gonna be a hell of a contributor for us
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Re: Otto Porter 

Post#1809 » by Ruzious » Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:28 pm

I think some folks here are making assumptions about Beal that are either not true or irrelevant. The one thing Beal does well on offense is shoot 3's - just like Butler and sometimes Webster. Defenses don't have to focus on him doing anything else, because he hasn't proven to be particularly good at anything else. Maybe that'll change some day - so far it hasn't. The one player defenses have to contain is Wall, because he can drive, set up teammates, and shoot - sometimes. Nobody is going to double-team Beal. They'll double Seraphin before they double Beal. They'll double 80 year old Miller before they'll double Beal - because Miller can post up.
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Re: Otto Porter 

Post#1810 » by dckingsfan » Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:30 pm

Illmatic12 wrote:Otto being better than Beal is such a stupid argument/tangent to even bring up :lol:

I didn't bring up the argument, but I have to disagree. This team is driven on the defensive end of the court - mostly because of who our coach is... and I think there is a very reasonable possibility that Otto will be a better defensive player (and therefore a better all around player) next year. Might not happen, but based upon trends, it very well could.

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Re: Otto Porter 

Post#1811 » by Dark Faze » Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:47 pm

Why is it stupid to say Otto could be better than Beal? Statistically his only problem is usage. His percentages are extremely good for a second year wing.

Beal is a great rebounder and three point shooter. Average defender. Porter is the better defender TODAY.
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Re: Otto Porter 

Post#1812 » by tontoz » Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:43 pm

Dark Faze wrote:Why is it stupid to say Otto could be better than Beal? Statistically his only problem is usage. His percentages are extremely good for a second year wing.

Beal is a great rebounder and three point shooter. Average defender. Porter is the better defender TODAY.


Beal is ranked 35th in rebounding rate among 2s. His rebounding is a weakness, not a strength.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinge ... eboundRate

If Otto got as many minutes as Beal i don't think he would have a hard time topping Beal's production. Other than 3 point shooting Beal isn't that good. And his midrange game is terrible. He has never shot long 2s nearly as well as Otto has done so far this season.
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Re: Otto Porter 

Post#1813 » by Illmatic12 » Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:18 am

tontoz wrote:
Dark Faze wrote:Why is it stupid to say Otto could be better than Beal? Statistically his only problem is usage. His percentages are extremely good for a second year wing.

Beal is a great rebounder and three point shooter. Average defender. Porter is the better defender TODAY.


Beal is ranked 35th in rebounding rate among 2s. His rebounding is a weakness, not a strength.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinge ... eboundRate" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

If Otto got as many minutes as Beal i don't think he would have a hard time topping Beal's production. Other than 3 point shooting Beal isn't that good. And his midrange game is terrible. He has never shot long 2s nearly as well as Otto has done so far this season.

Check offensive rebounding rate (more significant indicator of pure rebounding ability). Beal is 17th in Offensive rebounding rate BUT he ranks 4th among starting SGs (Jimmy Butler, Wade, Tyreke Evans are the only starters ahead of him).

If he was asked to crash the boards hard on this team he could probably average ~5rpg. He played some PF at Florida, and was one of the best rebounding guards in the nation. Beal is a very good rebounder for his position, and outstanding for his size.
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Re: Otto Porter 

Post#1814 » by Illmatic12 » Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:22 am

I have to think some of you are playing the role of trolls at this point (and some of the screennames I see involved don't surprise me) , but I'll leave it alone since this is the Otto Porter thread.
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Re: Otto Porter 

Post#1815 » by Dark Faze » Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:15 am

Illmatic12 wrote:I have to think some of you are playing the role of trolls at this point (and some of the screennames I see involved don't surprise me) , but I'll leave it alone since this is the Otto Porter thread.


I'm not trolling.

Look, Beal has every ability to be as good as Klay Thompson is, but until he actually does it, the only thing he'll have to his name is his long ball and some clutch post season play last year. I think he's going to be very good, but his regular season production at the moment couldn't be more pedestrian.
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Re: Otto Porter 

Post#1816 » by Illmatic12 » Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:22 am

Dark Faze wrote:
Illmatic12 wrote:I have to think some of you are playing the role of trolls at this point (and some of the screennames I see involved don't surprise me) , but I'll leave it alone since this is the Otto Porter thread.


I'm not trolling.

Look, Beal has every ability to be as good as Klay Thompson is, but until he actually does it, the only thing he'll have to his name is his long ball and some clutch post season play last year. I think he's going to be very good, but his regular season production at the moment couldn't be more pedestrian.

I'm not saying Beal is out here looking like a superstar, but Otto has been even MORE pedestrian in his career! lmao

Beal has shown way more in a Wizards uni than Otto has (not to mention he's actually a few weeks younger than Otto).You just sound like you're trying to hate for no reason. Not saying you are but that's how it comes off.. Otto has a brief stretch of good play and you're delightedly typing away on your keyboard about how he's better than Brad - who is having a rough year adjusting to a new role but has shown plenty of potential, and played his butt off for us in the playoffs
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Re: Otto Porter 

Post#1817 » by jangles86 » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:28 am

Who cares if Beal is better then Otto or vice versa?! They play completely seperate positions and they are both on our team! I hope both turn out to be stars!
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Re: Otto Porter 

Post#1818 » by tontoz » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:52 am

Illmatic12 wrote:[q
Check offensive rebounding rate (more significant indicator of pure rebounding ability). Beal is 17th in Offensive rebounding rate BUT he ranks 4th among starting SGs (Jimmy Butler, Wade, Tyreke Evans are the only starters ahead of him).

If he was asked to crash the boards hard on this team he could probably average ~5rpg. He played some PF at Florida, and was one of the best rebounding guards in the nation. Beal is a very good rebounder for his position, and outstanding for his size.



Beal's weak defensive rebounding is a result of his cherry picking. Time and again i see him leak out early after contesting a shot. Then the shooter gets his own rebound.

Ranking 35th in rebounding rate among 2s is not good no matter how hard you try to rationalize it.
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Re: Otto Porter 

Post#1819 » by Illmatic12 » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:55 am

tontoz wrote:
Illmatic12 wrote:[q
Check offensive rebounding rate (more significant indicator of pure rebounding ability). Beal is 17th in Offensive rebounding rate BUT he ranks 4th among starting SGs (Jimmy Butler, Wade, Tyreke Evans are the only starters ahead of him).

If he was asked to crash the boards hard on this team he could probably average ~5rpg. He played some PF at Florida, and was one of the best rebounding guards in the nation. Beal is a very good rebounder for his position, and outstanding for his size.



Beal's weak defensive rebounding is a result of his cherry picking. Time and again i see him leak out early after contesting a shot. Then the shooter gets his own rebound.

Ranking 35th in rebounding rate among 2s is not good no matter how hard you try to rationalize it.

:lol: This guy

Anyways, back to the Otto Porter thread..
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Re: Otto Porter 

Post#1820 » by tontoz » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:58 am

Illmatic12 wrote:
Dark Faze wrote:
Illmatic12 wrote:I have to think some of you are playing the role of trolls at this point (and some of the screennames I see involved don't surprise me) , but I'll leave it alone since this is the Otto Porter thread.


I'm not trolling.

Look, Beal has every ability to be as good as Klay Thompson is, but until he actually does it, the only thing he'll have to his name is his long ball and some clutch post season play last year. I think he's going to be very good, but his regular season production at the moment couldn't be more pedestrian.

I'm not saying Beal is out here looking like a superstar, but Otto has been even MORE pedestrian in his career! lmao

Beal has shown way more in a Wizards uni than Otto has (not to mention he's actually a few weeks younger than Otto).You just sound like you're trying to hate for no reason. Not saying you are but that's how it comes off.. Otto has a brief stretch of good play and you're delightedly typing away on your keyboard about how he's better than Brad - who is having a rough year adjusting to a new role but has shown plenty of potential, and played his butt off for us in the playoffs



Beal was a complete train wreck his first couple of months in the league but he was given big minutes and allowed to play his way out of it. Porter hasn't had that luxury. Beal has also had the benefit of playing with Wall who sets him up for easy looks time and again. Meanwhile i see Porter playing with the bench guys and making backcuts over and over and nobody hits him with a pass.

Porter is shooting 44% from 10-22 feet. Beal has never gotten close to that.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... rder_by=fg

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... rder_by=fg


Beal has been gifted minutes right from the start. The only competition he had was from Jordan Crawford who is currently playing in China.

Porter has had to share minutes with Ariza/Pierce/Webster.
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