Athlete: Lebron vs Bo Jackson vs Wilt

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Athlete: Lebron vs Bo Jackson vs Wilt 

Post#1 » by KyletheDingbat » Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:17 pm

Just watched that 30 for 30 series "You Don't Know Bo" and was amazed by Bo's athleticism. Who do you take here?
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Re: Athlete: Lebron vs Bo Jackson vs Wilt 

Post#2 » by CavaliersFTW » Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:02 am

Prepare to be even more amazed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B7jVTJ_CIE
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Re: Athlete: Lebron vs Bo Jackson vs Wilt 

Post#3 » by RayBan-Sematra » Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:53 am

I really am not sure how I would order them right now.
Spur of the moment ranking.

1. Bo
2. Bron
3. Wilt

Bo Jackson really was a crazy athlete before injury.
I like you was also impressed and watched that 30 for 30.

Wilt was an amazing athlete but watching some highlights now his coordination and quickness doesn't really blow me away.
He doesn't seem to have really great core strength and at times gets thrown off balance when you imagine he shouldn't.
Part of that could also be his super long legs and as a result higher center of gravity.
Those legs probably aided him when he was running or jumping but may have hampered him from a power leveraging standpoint.
I think people from his era tend to maybe overrate him from an athletic standpoint in part because he was so ridiculously ahead of his time physically and entered a league that was still mostly White and was just in the beginning of its transition from mostly White to mostly Black.
Maybe I am spoiled having watched so much Shaq who was basically Wilt upgraded from an athletic standpoint (minus stamina of course).
Could also be that many of those old low quality clips don't do him justice and of course watching him launch those butt ugly fadeaways doesn't do a good job of showing off his physical prowess.
Someone should make a Wilt dunk mix (including the take offs) and just moves where he physically overpowers guys to get to the basket.

CavaliersFTW wrote:Prepare to be even more amazed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B7jVTJ_CIE" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank


Great stuff Cavs.
The more Wilt clips available to the public the better.
Hope youtube doesn't end up taking them down like they used to.
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Re: Athlete: Lebron vs Bo Jackson vs Wilt 

Post#4 » by CavaliersFTW » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:43 am

Lebron ran a 4.6 hand timed 40 at 260lbs at the age of 28

Wilt ran a 4.6 hand timed 40 at 290lbs at the age of 28 and he was barefooted and a 4.4 40 at 240lbs at the age of 20 or 21

Bo ran a 4.12 hand timed 40 but he's 6-1 230lbs

Honestly the measurements of Wilt Chamberlain, and all the athletic feats he did and sports he did blows Lebron out of the water. And his size makes him more impressive than Bo IMO. I think he's the greatest or at least most physically imposing athlete that's ever been historically documented.
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Re: Athlete: Lebron vs Bo Jackson vs Wilt 

Post#5 » by CavaliersFTW » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:01 am

RayBan-Sematra wrote:I really am not sure how I would order them right now.
Spur of the moment ranking.

1. Bo
2. Bron
3. Wilt

Bo Jackson really was a crazy athlete before injury.
I like you was also impressed and watched that 30 for 30.

Wilt was an amazing athlete but watching some highlights now his coordination and quickness doesn't really blow me away.
He doesn't seem to have really great core strength and at times gets thrown off balance when you imagine he shouldn't.
Part of that could also be his super long legs and as a result higher center of gravity.
Those legs probably aided him when he was running or jumping but may have hampered him from a power leveraging standpoint.
I think people from his era tend to maybe overrate him from an athletic standpoint in part because he was so ridiculously ahead of his time physically and entered a league that was still mostly White and was just in the beginning of its transition from mostly White to mostly Black.
Maybe I am spoiled having watched so much Shaq who was basically Wilt upgraded from an athletic standpoint (minus stamina of course).
Could also be that many of those old low quality clips don't do him justice and of course watching him launch those butt ugly fadeaways doesn't do a good job of showing off his physical prowess.
Someone should make a Wilt dunk mix (including the take offs) and just moves where he physically overpowers guys to get to the basket.

CavaliersFTW wrote:Prepare to be even more amazed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B7jVTJ_CIE" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank


Great stuff Cavs.
The more Wilt clips available to the public the better.
Hope youtube doesn't end up taking them down like they used to.

The reason it's difficult to see "quickness" of most any player from that time lies in the 24fps copy of a copy of a copy film sources. Rather than 30fps broadcast, footage that you can find from pretty much any 80's game onward these days. The low quality stock of that era lacks the ability to capture quickness and subtle movements (subtle headfakes, quick body fakes, etc all tend to be more difficult to detect). For example, you can find the 1984 legends game and perceive more quickness and subtle movements in a 50+ year old Bob Pettit than you would have seen from his 28 year old self from the black and white era 1960's sources. Wilt is quick. He ran a 4.6 40 at the age of 28, without any shoes on. That's the same speed Lebron ran it at the same age and he was 260 and had shoes on. Wilt ran a 4.4 40 in college. He's by all means all-time quick for a 7 footer.

Wilt could flagpole. He's not lacking in any core strength. Nor coordination what on earth are you watching that you observed a lack of coordination? He's a Hasheem Thabeet sized athlete doing a Western Roll in the high jump.. that is INCREDIBLE coordination.

The blackness or whiteness of the league during Wilt's career has literally nothing to do with his own athleticism. He was still the most physically dominant athlete setting records that still stand in the game when he left it at the age of 36, in a league that was 60% black. He still looked like a man among boys.

Those fade aways were a huge part of his game getting him every NBA scoring record in the books when he retired and he still owns most of them. The shot was later copied by a great deal of legends that also built GOAT tier or HOF tier careers off that shot, for example Michael Jordan.
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Re: Athlete: Lebron vs Bo Jackson vs Wilt 

Post#6 » by Exodus » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:08 am

1A. BO
1B. Wilt




















3. Lebron
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Re: Athlete: Lebron vs Bo Jackson vs Wilt 

Post#7 » by thizznation » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:30 am

Wilt and it isn't even close.
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Re: Athlete: Lebron vs Bo Jackson vs Wilt 

Post#8 » by RayBan-Sematra » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:39 am

CavaliersFTW wrote:The reason it's difficult to see "quickness" of most any player from that time lies in the 24fps copy of a copy of a copy film sources. Rather than 30fps broadcast, footage that you can find from pretty much any 80's game onward these days. The low quality stock of that era lacks the ability to capture quickness and subtle movements (subtle headfakes, quick body fakes, etc all tend to be more difficult to detect).


Fair enough.
I agree that the poor video quality makes it harder to appreciate the greatness of players from back then.
Wilt could flagpole. He's not lacking in any core strength.


Got a link for the flagpoling thing?
Either way I am generally hesitant to judge a players athleticism based on written accounts of them performing some sort of physical endeavor off the field like weightlifting or anything else.
Not saying I don't take that stuff into consideration especially if the stories seem legitmate but I prefer to judge that sort of stuff based on NBA footage and what I can see for myself.
One must admit that Wilt was top heavy throughout his career and always had a skinny lower body in comparison to his chest and arms.
He also had really long legs which means he had a really high center of gravity which is not a good thing when it comes to leveraging your weight or overpowering folks.

Nor coordination what on earth are you watching that you observed a lack of coordination? He's a Hasheem Thabeet sized athlete doing a Western Roll in the high jump.. that is INCREDIBLE coordination.


Again using off the field stuff...
Anyway I wasn't saying he lacked coordination or didn't have quite excellent coordination for a man of his size but when compared to the best of the best he doesn't impress me.

The blackness or whiteness of the league during Wilt's career has literally nothing to do with his own athleticism.


Agreed but it could have effected the way people perceived his athleticism back then for obvious reasons.
If I played hoops against some 8 year olds on a 8 foot rim I would look pretty good to observers.
If I played hoops against some NBA players I wouldn't look very good.
Silly example but it explains the point.

Those fade aways were a huge part of his game getting him every NBA scoring record in the books when he retired and he still owns most of them.


Shot just isn't very pretty.
Form seems inconsistent, lets go of his guiding hand pre-release and the release is painfully slow in some clips.
Also a weaker league, absurd pace and a sideshow coaching ideology played a big part in those scoring records which came mostly in the regular-season.
Wilt was not that great of a playoff scorer despite having some era based advantages.

Prime (p42) (60-66) : 29ppg on 52%TS
Other (p42) (67-73) : 16ppg on 52%TS

In his entire career he had 2 playoff runs (64, 65) where he volume scored on good effiency.

Wilt was an amazing athlete but didn't have a great basketball mind and wasn't overly skilled in the halfcourt which is why he was so routinely held in check in the playoffs especially against Russell one of the few truly great defensive C's from that early 60's era.
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Re: Athlete: Lebron vs Bo Jackson vs Wilt 

Post#9 » by CavaliersFTW » Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:05 am

RayBan-Sematra wrote:
CavaliersFTW wrote:The reason it's difficult to see "quickness" of most any player from that time lies in the 24fps copy of a copy of a copy film sources. Rather than 30fps broadcast, footage that you can find from pretty much any 80's game onward these days. The low quality stock of that era lacks the ability to capture quickness and subtle movements (subtle headfakes, quick body fakes, etc all tend to be more difficult to detect).


Fair enough.
I agree that the poor video quality makes it harder to appreciate the greatness of players from back then.
Wilt could flagpole. He's not lacking in any core strength.


Got a link for the flagpoling thing?
Either way I am generally hesitant to judge a players athleticism based on written accounts of them performing some sort of physical endeavor off the field like weightlifting or anything else.
Not saying I don't take that stuff into consideration especially if the stories seem legitmate but I prefer to judge that sort of stuff based on NBA footage and what I can see for myself.
One must admit that Wilt was top heavy throughout his career and always had a skinny lower body in comparison to his chest and arms.
He also had really long legs which means he had a really high center of gravity which is not a good thing when it comes to leveraging your weight or overpowering folks.

Nor coordination what on earth are you watching that you observed a lack of coordination? He's a Hasheem Thabeet sized athlete doing a Western Roll in the high jump.. that is INCREDIBLE coordination.


Again using off the field stuff...
Anyway I wasn't saying he lacked coordination or didn't have quite excellent coordination for a man of his size but when compared to the best of the best he doesn't impress me.

The blackness or whiteness of the league during Wilt's career has literally nothing to do with his own athleticism.


Agreed but it could have effected the way people perceived his athleticism back then for obvious reasons.
If I played hoops against some 8 year olds on a 8 foot rim I would look pretty good to observers.
If I played hoops against some NBA players I wouldn't look very good.
Silly example but it explains the point.

Those fade aways were a huge part of his game getting him every NBA scoring record in the books when he retired and he still owns most of them.


Shot just isn't very pretty.
Form seems inconsistent, lets go of his guiding hand pre-release and the release is painfully slow in some clips.
Also a weaker league, absurd pace and a sideshow coaching ideology played a big part in those scoring records which came mostly in the regular-season.
Wilt was not that great of a playoff scorer despite having some era based advantages.

Prime (p42) (60-66) : 29ppg on 52%TS
Other (p42) (67-73) : 16ppg on 52%TS

In his entire career he had 2 playoff runs (64, 65) where he volume scored on good effiency.

Wilt was an amazing athlete but didn't have a great basketball mind and wasn't overly skilled in the halfcourt which is why he was so routinely held in check in the playoffs especially against Russell one of the few truly great defensive C's from that early 60's era.

Flagpoling:
http://www.sfgate.com/sports/ostler/art ... 162075.php" target="_blank

Wilt also wrote about how he used to do it in one of his books.

Guys like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar marvel at Wilt's athleticism. Heck, the list of OTHER professional athletes that have come and gone in the sport that think he's the greatest athlete ever or among them is large. He isn't just skewing peoples perception standing next to white guys. He legitimately could do things nobody could imagine doing when they are recounted. The strength stories, the stories of him dominating Magic Johnson and 4 other NBA stars with nothing but UCLA freshman as his own teammates (he blocked EVERY SHOT in a pickup game against Magic, Worthy, Bernard King, Byron Scott and Michael Thompson.. he was 44 years old that is insane. These aren't just vague stories told by friends of friends of friends, these are first hand accounts told by Arnold Schwarzenegger, Larry Brown, or for Wilt's free throw line dunk that required only a 3 step head start - Tex Winters. Wilt did impossible sounding things but it was just things he could do, things he probably didn't think twice about himself.

I have 9 examples of Wilt catching shots in mid air, 2 of them he takes off to run the fast break... only a random 2.4% of his career FGM exist on film. If his blocks were near that 2.4% figure that means he on average CAUGHT what, 30 shots a season? Goal tending or not that is insane. How many times do players catch shots in their career? Dwight's done it a couple times, seen Barkley do it. Those are career plays for them. They are just another routine thing Wilt Chamberlain used to do.

TS%? Do you know TS% penalizes volume free throw shooters who don't shoot accurately? Do you know he played in the 1 to make 2 and 2 to make 3 era? And has records for shooting the most free throws in a season? TS% doesn't apply to his era it is a completely non-linear comparison. His fadeaways were shot at a high percentage. He scored 50.4ppg shooting over 50%, he scored 24ppg shooting over 68%, and he scored 13ppg shooting 73%. His TS% is irrelevant because of the 1 to make 2 and 2 to make 3 rules. His FG% is your window to how accurate he shot and he shot the fadeaway all those years. In fact, he shot the fade away during his many famous shooting streaks in '67, where he'd go 32 shots without missing, and then again later that same season 35 consecutive shots without missing. He didn't change up his repertoire, he just focused on passing to the open man and that season and a few seasons following only taking careful shots. The fade away was money. If you think it doesn't look pretty, well that's just aesthetics, it went in often enough to make him the greatest scorer ever, in volume and in accuracy just depended on what he felt like. What other scorers have had that freedom of will?

He's also one of the more gifted minds to play the game, have you not payed attention to the passes and plays he executes? The timing and thought process necessary to make them happen? Or the way he could totally adjust the way he played games to fit rosters or fill holes? I don't see how you could call him an unintelligent basketball player. Bill Russell says he's the smartest player he played against. He'll fake the pass or wait for cutters 2 or 3 times sometimes passing up good shot opportunities (for his teammates) for even better shot opportunities.
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Re: Athlete: Lebron vs Bo Jackson vs Wilt 

Post#10 » by RayBan-Sematra » Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:27 am

CavaliersFTW wrote:Flagpoling:
http://www.sfgate.com/sports/ostler/art ... 162075.php" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Wilt also wrote about how he used to do it in one of his books.


Thanks.

Guys like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar marvel at Wilt's athleticism. Heck, the list of OTHER professional athletes that have come and gone in the sport that think he's the greatest athlete ever or among them is large. He isn't just skewing peoples perception standing next to white guys.


I know Wilt is a GOAT athlete.
He was like Shaq except in simple terms he was less powerful, slightly less coordinated and less quick/explosive.
Wilt of course had slightly better hops, slightly better top end speed and of course better stamina.
Agree to disagree on the coordination part btw don't wanna argue about that but I know you'll disagree.
One can argue Wilt as the GOAT athlete reasonably.
I just personally don't believe he was based on my own comparisons and analysis.

I have 9 examples of Wilt catching shots in mid air, 2 of them he takes off to run the fast break... only a random 2.4% of his career FGM exist on film. If his blocks were near that 2.4% figure that means he on average CAUGHT what, 30 shots a season? Goal tending or not that is insane. How many times do players catch shots in their career? Dwight's done it a couple times, seen Barkley do it. Those are career plays for them. They are just another routine thing Wilt Chamberlain used to do.


I don't see Wilt blocking more shots then Hakeem or the Admiral in the modern era.
I'll give him a cap of 4-BPG and if you think it over you'll see that makes sense.
Also it was much easier for guys like Wilt to catch shots in mid-air or just accrue blocked shots back then compared to now.
MUCH easier. You should not forget stuff like that.

TS%? Do you know TS% penalizes volume free throw shooters who don't shoot accurately? Do you know he played in the 1 to make 2 and 2 to make 3 era? And has records for shooting the most free throws in a season? TS% doesn't apply to his era it is a completely non-linear comparison.


I think TS% is fine but I do need to better understand the 2 for 3 thing.
It might have an effect (perhaps small) which I will still have to factor in.
His FG% wasn't great either btw for a bad ft shooting power C.
50% during his high scoring years.
54% during his low scoring years.

His fadeaways were shot at a high percentage.


Don't agree and Wilt shot charts I have seen while limited showed he shot a bad percentage on mid-range shots that weren't pretty close to the basket.
Again that alone doesn't mean anything but its better then nothing and I have other statistical evidence which supports my view/theory on the matter.
I know you made other points but I am tired and need to sleep.
I'll address them later.
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Re: Athlete: Lebron vs Bo Jackson vs Wilt 

Post#11 » by KyletheDingbat » Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:29 am

Appreciate the Wilt discussion but may I ask you guys' opinion on how Wilt would stack up against Bo as an athlete? These two are probably the most mythologized athletes of recent times.
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Re: Athlete: Lebron vs Bo Jackson vs Wilt 

Post#12 » by CavaliersFTW » Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:07 am

I don't think Shaq was more powerful than Wilt, all accounts point to Wilt being the strongest athlete that ever played in the NBA. Shaq was the heaviest, and one of the strongest, I believe Wilt was stronger. The highest bench press figures that exist of Shaq are 450lbs, the highest for Wilt go to as high as 600 out his own mouth, 500 from two first hand accounts and 1 465lb first hand account that implied he was repping 465 at a gym in Stanford not maxing on it followed again by a first hand reply from Wilt saying "I can probably do more than that (then, in his 50's). Power is mass times acceleration. Wilt was able to get his 290lbs 40 yards in 4.6 seconds. Shaq, at a then weight of 350lbs on the show Shaq vs, was timed with a 5.8 40. Not as impressive or explosive as Wilt's 4.6 and I'm not sure Shaq at his younger 300lbs could have done 4.6. Maybe, but unfortunately he only attempted it when he was 350lbs.

As for Wilt's fall away this is an article from March 1962:

Image

And again, Wilt had 3 really epic "field goals without a miss" streaks. Once in 1964 he made 32 FG's in a row without a miss. He did this again early in the 1967 season. Followed again once more that same season with a 35 consecutive FG streak. He was shooting that fadeaway through those stretches he wasn't just waiting around for backdoor dunks. He was shooting that fadeaway when he shot 68% for the 67 season on 24ppg and he was shooting that fadeaway in 1973 when he scored 13ppg on 73% from the field shooting.

The 1 to make 2 and 2 to make 3 rule ruins TS%. TS% penalizes volume free throw shooters as it is, it further exaggerates this unfair penalization in the 1 to make 2 and 2 to make 3 era if you aren't an accurate FT shooter.

Let me give you a for instance. Wilt shoots 11 free throws one night. Only makes 5 of them. It would DESTROY his TS%... yet a sensible reality would look a lot more like this:

Wilt gets fouled, misses first 2 shots, hits 3rd. 1/3 (Wilt got 1 point out of a 2 point opportunity)

Wilt gets fouled and-1 opportunity. misses first shot hits 2nd. 1/2 (Wilt got his 1 point out of a 1 point opportunity)

Wilt gets fouled, misses first shot hits next two shots. 2/3 (Wilt got his 2 points out of a 2 point opportunity)

Wilt gets fouled, misses first 2 shots hits 3rd. 1/3 (Wilt got 1 point out of a two point opportunity)

TS% penalizes him for taking 11 free throws because it assumes he got sent to the line a ridiculous amount of times, then missed over half of them assuming he missed many scoring opportunities. But he actually didn't. He got sent to the line only 4 times, and scored every single time. Twice completing the maximum amount of points possible.

The 1 to make 2 and 2 to make 3 era is completely and utterly incompatible with TS%, especially if you were a low percentage yet high volume FT shooter from that era. If you wanted to design a stat to zero in to make Wilt Chamberlain look far less effective at scoring points than he actually was, you couldn't design a better way to do it than TS%. The reality is, if you were the opponent, you didn't want to hack him. He scored 50% of his free throws but his effectiveness at accumulating points per foul at the line was more like 65% with those extra opportunities.
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Re: Athlete: Lebron vs Bo Jackson vs Wilt 

Post#13 » by CavaliersFTW » Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:12 am

KyletheDingbat wrote:Appreciate the Wilt discussion but may I ask you guys' opinion on how Wilt would stack up against Bo as an athlete? These two are probably the most mythologized athletes of recent times.

Well it's hard to compare, one of them is literally a giant that does agility and body control related things most normal size people can't do and some things he did people neither big nor small could do save for a few of the strongest people on the earth (just with regards to his strength). The other is a comparatively normal sized person. Bo is probably ultimately more athletic as far as agility, raw numbers like speed, etc. Wilt by virtue of his size is again a lot stronger. Wilt is likely rarer but who knows. Wilt could do really weird 'athletic' feats that most people don't even think about, like palm a 16lb bowling ball. Bo has a few stories like that too though. So flip a coin I guess.
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Re: Athlete: Lebron vs Bo Jackson vs Wilt 

Post#14 » by RayBan-Sematra » Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:10 pm

CavaliersFTW wrote:I don't think Shaq was more powerful than Wilt, all accounts point to Wilt being the strongest athlete that ever played in the NBA. Shaq was the heaviest, and one of the strongest, I believe Wilt was stronger.


Yes Wilt has his supporters in the strength arena but so does Shaq.
Even some 60's/70's guys have told the media that Shaq > Wilt in terms of strength.
The point is if we look at strength, quickness or any other thing you'll find plenty of supporters from all walks of life for both of them.
Ultimately I choose to rely on my own eyes and they tell me that Shaq at the very least was one firm tier above Wilt in terms of power/strength.
I don't see Wilt having the stability that Shaq had or the sheer power and leveraging ability.

Shaq was heavier then Wilt (had more muscle).
When Shaq entered the league he was right around 300 with not a speck of fat on him.
Around his Peak (00) he had visibly added a good deal of muscle and was probably around 340.
Wilt entered the league closer to 250 and generally kept around 280 during his Prime.
So Prime Wilt was generally 20-40lbs lighter then young Shaq and around 65-lbs lighter then Peak Shaq.

In LA Wilt grew bigger and probably crossed the 300 mark but even that Wilt would probably be visibly dwarfed to a some small degree by Shaq at his biggest (00).
Maybe dwarfed is the wrong word I am just saying the size difference would be noticeable if they stood side by side especially in the lower body.

Shaq also had a more balanced frame.
Wilt had really long pogo stick legs which gave him a higher center of gravity and he was top heavy in terms of muscle mass.
Higher center of gravity is generally a bad thing when it comes to leveraging strength on the court and lower body strength is more important for that then upper body strength.
Those long legs did help him run faster and jump higher though so they weren't just an impediment.

Now don't get me wrong.
Wilt was the strongest of his era and played in a less athletic era so his athletic advantage was arguably superior to Shaqs in that sense but I don't think he was the better athlete especially without stamina factored in and certainly he was not the stronger one.
Sure Wilt has some stories of lifting guys with one hand or breaking toes with a dunk but Shaq also has his stories like breaking some guys arm when dunking as a Rookie or dunking with guys hanging from his back or sending multiple guys flying like bowling pins on a vicious attempt while he himself barely got budged.
I don't mind you thinking Wilt was stronger but I think the facts and logic kind of support my view more.
When Shaq entered the league people were shocked by his power. As a gangly rookie he was physically bullying some legendary C's.

The highest bench press figures that exist of Shaq are 450lbs, the highest for Wilt go to as high as 600 out his own mouth, 500 from two first hand accounts and 1 465lb first hand account that implied he was repping 465 at a gym in Stanford not maxing on it followed again by a first hand reply from Wilt saying "I can probably do more than that (then, in his 50's).


Aren't most of those accounts from his post-retirment days?
I would be more interested in bench press accounts from 60-69 or 60-68 when the dude was in his Prime.
Even if Lakers Wilt could bench 700 he wasn't the same overall athlete anymore as he was in his youth so from a purely all around athletic standpoint he still would fall short of guys like Prime Shaq who at worst would have comparable strength and much greater quickness, speed and slightly better hops.

Wilt was able to get his 290lbs 40 yards in 4.6 seconds. Shaq, at a then weight of 350lbs on the show Shaq vs, was timed with a 5.8 40. Not as impressive or explosive as Wilt's 4.6 and I'm not sure Shaq at his younger 300lbs could have done 4.6. Maybe, but unfortunately he only attempted it when he was 350lbs.


#1. I wouldn't judge power strictly by the 40 yard dash or any race.
#2. Shaq was a complete shell of his former athletic self by the late 00's when he was still playing.
By his "Shaq VS" days he was even less athletic then that.
If that Shaq could run a 5.whatever then I am pretty sure Orlando Shaq could run somewhere in the 4's.
Maybe he doesn't match Wilt but I see him at worst coming very close and again I still won't use that alone to judge power on the court just like I would cringe at anyone using the bench press by itself to judge basketball strength.
I mean Ben Wallace benched like 600 and Shaq bullyed him like he was a toy...
Just an example of why the bench means almost nothing.

The 1 to make 2 and 2 to make 3 rule ruins TS%. TS% penalizes volume free throw shooters as it is, it further exaggerates this unfair penalization in the 1 to make 2 and 2 to make 3 era if you aren't an accurate FT shooter.

TS% penalizes him for taking 11 free throws because it assumes he got sent to the line a ridiculous amount of times, then missed over half of them assuming he missed many scoring opportunities. But he actually didn't. He got sent to the line only 4 times, and scored every single time. Twice completing the maximum amount of points possible.

The 1 to make 2 and 2 to make 3 era is completely and utterly incompatible with TS%, especially if you were a low percentage yet high volume FT shooter from that era. If you wanted to design a stat to zero in to make Wilt Chamberlain look far less effective at scoring points than he actually was, you couldn't design a better way to do it than TS%. The reality is, if you were the opponent, you didn't want to hack him. He scored 50% of his free throws but his effectiveness at accumulating points per foul at the line was more like 65% with those extra opportunities.


I think I understand but having those extra attempts probably led to him making a bunch more FT's so the harm to his TS% probably wasn't that bad.

Either way his ->50% FG<- in his high scoring years is not good for a bad FT shooting C and his FT shooting got worse when he was a more efficient (54%) yet lower volume scorer so again I don't see him posting good efficiency let alone elite efficiency on a consistent basis against the tougher competition in any era unless he improved his stroke from the line.
This guy was regularly below 40% from the line in his low scoring years. That is bad.

And were Wilt's FTA really inflated that much?
You're talking about a guy who supposedly had Shaq like ability to draw fouls down low and a guy who was playing in a faster era and played many more minutes and yet his P36 FTA mark is actually lower then Prime Shaqs.

Prime Shaq : 10.9 FTA
60-66 Wilt : 9.4 FTA
Used a 6 year sample for both.

Really though even Wilt's unadjusted FTA are only about one higher despite the pace and minute differences.
One could also mention that from what I know Wilt generally was quite inefficient VS Russ in the post-season which no TS% difference could cover up for.
The fact that he in many series seemed so containable and at times inefficient VS the only truly great defensive C of his era is not a good sign.
I mean Shaq didn't get nerfed against Hakeem.
Kareem didn't get nerfed against Walton.

Just another thing which strengthens the theory that Wilt wasn't a GOAT halfcourt scorer.
Doesn't mean he was a bad one either but I just don't currently think he was on that top level.
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Re: Athlete: Lebron vs Bo Jackson vs Wilt 

Post#15 » by SkyHookFTW » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:03 pm

I'm convinced that 99% of posters on these boards have no idea of how much core strength a track and field athlete has. To put LeBron in the same class as Wilt and Bo is laughable.

To everyone who uses old film to judge a player--please stop. CavFTW pointed out the FPS differences that make the film comparisons almost moot. I can back this up from personal experience. When I moved to LA I worked as a cameraman in film production. I have first-hand experience in this area. I even went to Mexico and was one of the cameramen working on the Conan film that have Arnold and Wilt (Andre the Giant showed up to visit, you gotta see him in person to believe it). For the record, Wilt and Andre are about the same height, with roided-up Arnold looking like a shrimp next to them.

As far as Wilt's strength in his younger days, there were a number of Kansas Univ. football players who were shocked at his weight room work outs from a pure strength-wise perspective. This is well-known; Wilt was not a skinny weakling. Some wiry guys are just unbelievably strong, and Wilt was one of those guys.

Comparing Shaq and Wilt athletically is foolish. If one wants to concede that Shaq and Wilt cancel each other out on the court, I'm okay with that. But we're talking pure athlete here. Can Shaq cancel Wilt out on the track and field events? No way in hell. "Skinny" Wilt was once the high school shot put record holder for the state of Pennsylvania. Wilt was a 3-time NCAA high jump champion. Wilt was a near world-class runner in the 440. He could toss a javlin more than 2/3's the length of a football field. This is all in the record books--no bulls**t abut it.

Could Shaq play 48.5 minutes a game for an entire season like Wilt did? No, because he didn't have Wilt's endurance. Could Shaq play 42 minutes a game for a season like Wilt did at the age of 36? No, because Shaq's cardio conditioning never approached Wilt's. That's part of being a great athlete. Cardio is part of the core.

I'm not a Shaq hater. Hell, KAJ, Wilt, and Shaq are my three favorite players ever. I would take any one of those three over MJ if I was to start a new franchise. I've seen all three in person, each at least 40 times. I watched old man Wilt finish games damn near as strong as when he started the game, whereas I watched Shaq gasping for breath in the 4th quarter, looking like he was going to pass out.

Bo Jackson and Wilt are the two most amazing athletes I ever saw in my life. I'll add in Herschal Walker and Ali as well. eBron is also amazing. But in the end, it comes down to what you did. Wilt and Bo excelled in two different sports. They actually did it. LeBron did not do it. Shaq did not do it. Bo and Wilt did do it. Case closed.
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Re: Athlete: Lebron vs Bo Jackson vs Wilt 

Post#16 » by Joao Saraiva » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:09 pm

Exodus wrote:1A. BO
1B. Wilt




















3. Lebron


You usually say: when LeBron gets old he'll be bad because he's good for his athleticism. And now you say this :clap:

Talk about being consistent with your arguments. If LeBron is that far away from those 2 guys, then Kobe Bryant in his peak was a old dude in a wheel chair.
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Re: Athlete: Lebron vs Bo Jackson vs Wilt 

Post#17 » by RayBan-Sematra » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:21 pm

SkyHookFTW wrote:I'm convinced that 99% of posters on these boards have no idea of how much core strength a track and field athlete has. To put LeBron in the same class as Wilt and Bo is laughable.


Fair enough. You might be right.
Still I wouldn't go that far to say Lebron is badly outclassed.
He was a truly freakish athlete in his youth or pre-2011.
However no one said Wilt had bad core strength or weak legs.
I was only saying that he may have had a weaker core and weaker legs then Shaquille but being slightly worse then the best doesn't mean you're anything less then awesome.

To everyone who uses old film to judge a player--please stop. CavFTW pointed out the FPS differences that make the film comparisons almost moot. I can back this up from personal experience. When I moved to LA I worked as a cameraman in film production. I have first-hand experience in this area. I even went to Mexico and was one of the cameramen working on the Conan film that have Arnold and Wilt (Andre the Giant showed up to visit, you gotta see him in person to believe it). For the record, Wilt and Andre are about the same height, with roided-up Arnold looking like a shrimp next to them.


Definitely agree to some extent.
No HD back in those days and way less/worse camera angles. Sucks.

As far as Wilt's strength in his younger days, there were a number of Kansas Univ. football players who were shocked at his weight room work outs from a pure strength-wise perspective. This is well-known; Wilt was not a skinny weakling. Some wiry guys are just unbelievably strong, and Wilt was one of those guys.


Strongest guy of his era and one of the strongest guys in NBA history.
Still not big on using weight lifting measurements to judge usable on-court basketball strength.
See my Ben Wallace reference from earlier.

Can Shaq cancel Wilt out on the track and field events?


A young Shaq, maybe. Just because he didn't go for that doesn't mean he wouldn't have excelled at it the way Wilt did.
Young Shaq ran the floor like a damn gazelle. You know that.

No way in hell. "Skinny" Wilt was once the high school shot put record holder for the state of Pennsylvania.

Again no one said Wilt was ever weak even skinny Wilt and he was always known to have a strong upper body.

Could Shaq play 48.5 minutes a game for an entire season like Wilt did?


Young Shaq might have been able to do it if he stayed at or below 300 (easier said then done for that hungry man).
Personally I think Shaq had fantastic stamina during most of his atheltic Prime and he has multiple long playoff runs where he played over 40mpg.
This was a guy who was known to go hard towards the end of games when others were tired out.
He had damn good stamina.

No, because he didn't have Wilt's endurance.


Probably not but he still had great endurance just like Wilt had great strength.

I'm not a Shaq hater. Hell, KAJ, Wilt, and Shaq are my three favorite players ever.


I am no Wilt hater either and I am a big fan of all the GOAT bigs.
Some criticisms I lobby at Wilt may be ones that some of his supporters wouldn't agree with and I may rank him slightly lower then some on my GOAT list but I still consider him a GOAT tier NBA athlete and one of the best players ever.

Anyway my opinions of Wilt as a player, person and baller are always evolving.
There are admittedly others who are far more familiar with him then I am.
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Re: Athlete: Lebron vs Bo Jackson vs Wilt 

Post#18 » by Jaivl » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:51 pm

That 265 pound C&J and 210 MP numbers make me believe he obviously never came close to the 600 pound bench press.

To put it in perspective, that 600 pound number is the world raw bench record in the 242 lb class. The 265 pound clean & jerk is more than 100 pounds short of the world record for the 116 lb class. I mean, Wilt's C&J record is only 60 pounds better than mine (35 pound advantage in the military press), and I can't even sniff the 250 lb bench.

So either 1) He had a totally unbalanced physique. 2) He lies.
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Re: Athlete: Lebron vs Bo Jackson vs Wilt 

Post#19 » by SkyHookFTW » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:28 pm

RayBan-Sematra wrote:
SkyHookFTW wrote:I'm convinced that 99% of posters on these boards have no idea of how much core strength a track and field athlete has. To put LeBron in the same class as Wilt and Bo is laughable.


Fair enough. You might be right.
Still I wouldn't go that far to say Lebron is badly outclassed.
He was a truly freakish athlete in his youth or pre-2011.
However no one said Wilt had bad core strength or weak legs.
I was only saying that he may have had a weaker core and weaker legs then Shaquille but being slightly worse then the best doesn't mean you're anything less then awesome.

To everyone who uses old film to judge a player--please stop. CavFTW pointed out the FPS differences that make the film comparisons almost moot. I can back this up from personal experience. When I moved to LA I worked as a cameraman in film production. I have first-hand experience in this area. I even went to Mexico and was one of the cameramen working on the Conan film that have Arnold and Wilt (Andre the Giant showed up to visit, you gotta see him in person to believe it). For the record, Wilt and Andre are about the same height, with roided-up Arnold looking like a shrimp next to them.


Definitely agree to some extent.
No HD back in those days and way less/worse camera angles. Sucks.

As far as Wilt's strength in his younger days, there were a number of Kansas Univ. football players who were shocked at his weight room work outs from a pure strength-wise perspective. This is well-known; Wilt was not a skinny weakling. Some wiry guys are just unbelievably strong, and Wilt was one of those guys.


Strongest guy of his era and one of the strongest guys in NBA history.
Still not big on using weight lifting measurements to judge usable on-court basketball strength.
See my Ben Wallace reference from earlier.

Can Shaq cancel Wilt out on the track and field events?


A young Shaq, maybe. Just because he didn't go for that doesn't mean he wouldn't have excelled at it the way Wilt did.
Young Shaq ran the floor like a damn gazelle. You know that.

No way in hell. "Skinny" Wilt was once the high school shot put record holder for the state of Pennsylvania.

Again no one said Wilt was ever weak even skinny Wilt and he was always known to have a strong upper body.

Could Shaq play 48.5 minutes a game for an entire season like Wilt did?


Young Shaq might have been able to do it if he stayed at or below 300 (easier said then done for that hungry man).
Personally I think Shaq had fantastic stamina during most of his atheltic Prime and he has multiple long playoff runs where he played over 40mpg.
This was a guy who was known to go hard towards the end of games when others were tired out.
He had damn good stamina.

No, because he didn't have Wilt's endurance.


Probably not but he still had great endurance just like Wilt had great strength.

I'm not a Shaq hater. Hell, KAJ, Wilt, and Shaq are my three favorite players ever.


I am no Wilt hater either and I am a big fan of all the GOAT bigs.
Some criticisms I lobby at Wilt may be ones that some of his supporters wouldn't agree with and I may rank him slightly lower then some on my GOAT list but I still consider him a GOAT tier NBA athlete and one of the best players ever.

Anyway my opinions of Wilt as a player, person and baller are always evolving.
There are admittedly others who are far more familiar with him then I am.


Young Shaq was amazing, and did have good endurance, though not at Wilt level. One thing that separates Wilt from all the other bigs is his ability to play so many effective minutes at an advanced age. 42 minutes per game on a bad knee at age 36 is something you don't see everyday--and he led the league in rebounding too that year, his last full season, though if I recall he only averaged 18 boards a game. Where Shaq falls short in the comparison is his inability to hold down his weight. It hurt him in his later years, as did his toe issues (much more painful than one might imagine--I hated when people called Shaq names because of that, that s**t hurts!). Wilt's superior conditioning showed in his later years. He looked great at age 61!Wilt, with sprinter speed and alien-like endurance, would have run Shaq to the floor by the 4th quarter, even in his prime I believe (or at least leaving him hoping for a few extra TV timeouts). This is not a knock on Shaq, it's just that Shaq never had to deal with a big man who could do those things 48 minutes a game from a purely athletic view. Of course, Shaq very well may have affected Wilt too, since Wilt didn't have another big to go up against like strong Shaq. As strong as Lanier and Thurmond were, they weren't Shaq.

I'm fairly certain prime Wilt and Shaq would just dominate any other center in the paint.

I would pay $1000 for a ticket to see them against each other.
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Re: Athlete: Lebron vs Bo Jackson vs Wilt 

Post#20 » by Exodus » Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:18 pm

RayBan-Sematra wrote:
CavaliersFTW wrote:I don't think Shaq was more powerful than Wilt, all accounts point to Wilt being the strongest athlete that ever played in the NBA. Shaq was the heaviest, and one of the strongest, I believe Wilt was stronger.


Yes Wilt has his supporters in the strength arena but so does Shaq.
Even some 60's/70's guys have told the media that Shaq > Wilt in terms of strength.
The point is if we look at strength, quickness or any other thing you'll find plenty of supporters from all walks of life for both of them.
Ultimately I choose to rely on my own eyes and they tell me that Shaq at the very least was one firm tier above Wilt in terms of power/strength.
I don't see Wilt having the stability that Shaq had or the sheer power and leveraging ability.

Shaq was heavier then Wilt (had more muscle).
When Shaq entered the league he was right around 300 with not a speck of fat on him.
Around his Peak (00) he had visibly added a good deal of muscle and was probably around 340.
Wilt entered the league closer to 250 and generally kept around 280 during his Prime.
So Prime Wilt was generally 20-40lbs lighter then young Shaq and around 65-lbs lighter then Peak Shaq.

In LA Wilt grew bigger and probably crossed the 300 mark but even that Wilt would probably be visibly dwarfed to a some small degree by Shaq at his biggest (00).
Maybe dwarfed is the wrong word I am just saying the size difference would be noticeable if they stood side by side especially in the lower body.

Shaq also had a more balanced frame.
Wilt had really long pogo stick legs which gave him a higher center of gravity and he was top heavy in terms of muscle mass.
Higher center of gravity is generally a bad thing when it comes to leveraging strength on the court and lower body strength is more important for that then upper body strength.
Those long legs did help him run faster and jump higher though so they weren't just an impediment.

Now don't get me wrong.
Wilt was the strongest of his era and played in a less athletic era so his athletic advantage was arguably superior to Shaqs in that sense but I don't think he was the better athlete especially without stamina factored in and certainly he was not the stronger one.
Sure Wilt has some stories of lifting guys with one hand or breaking toes with a dunk but Shaq also has his stories like breaking some guys arm when dunking as a Rookie or dunking with guys hanging from his back or sending multiple guys flying like bowling pins on a vicious attempt while he himself barely got budged.
I don't mind you thinking Wilt was stronger but I think the facts and logic kind of support my view more.
When Shaq entered the league people were shocked by his power. As a gangly rookie he was physically bullying some legendary C's.

The highest bench press figures that exist of Shaq are 450lbs, the highest for Wilt go to as high as 600 out his own mouth, 500 from two first hand accounts and 1 465lb first hand account that implied he was repping 465 at a gym in Stanford not maxing on it followed again by a first hand reply from Wilt saying "I can probably do more than that (then, in his 50's).


Aren't most of those accounts from his post-retirment days?
I would be more interested in bench press accounts from 60-69 or 60-68 when the dude was in his Prime.
Even if Lakers Wilt could bench 700 he wasn't the same overall athlete anymore as he was in his youth so from a purely all around athletic standpoint he still would fall short of guys like Prime Shaq who at worst would have comparable strength and much greater quickness, speed and slightly better hops.

Wilt was able to get his 290lbs 40 yards in 4.6 seconds. Shaq, at a then weight of 350lbs on the show Shaq vs, was timed with a 5.8 40. Not as impressive or explosive as Wilt's 4.6 and I'm not sure Shaq at his younger 300lbs could have done 4.6. Maybe, but unfortunately he only attempted it when he was 350lbs.


#1. I wouldn't judge power strictly by the 40 yard dash or any race.
#2. Shaq was a complete shell of his former athletic self by the late 00's when he was still playing.
By his "Shaq VS" days he was even less athletic then that.
If that Shaq could run a 5.whatever then I am pretty sure Orlando Shaq could run somewhere in the 4's.
Maybe he doesn't match Wilt but I see him at worst coming very close and again I still won't use that alone to judge power on the court just like I would cringe at anyone using the bench press by itself to judge basketball strength.
I mean Ben Wallace benched like 600 and Shaq bullyed him like he was a toy...
Just an example of why the bench means almost nothing.

The 1 to make 2 and 2 to make 3 rule ruins TS%. TS% penalizes volume free throw shooters as it is, it further exaggerates this unfair penalization in the 1 to make 2 and 2 to make 3 era if you aren't an accurate FT shooter.

TS% penalizes him for taking 11 free throws because it assumes he got sent to the line a ridiculous amount of times, then missed over half of them assuming he missed many scoring opportunities. But he actually didn't. He got sent to the line only 4 times, and scored every single time. Twice completing the maximum amount of points possible.

The 1 to make 2 and 2 to make 3 era is completely and utterly incompatible with TS%, especially if you were a low percentage yet high volume FT shooter from that era. If you wanted to design a stat to zero in to make Wilt Chamberlain look far less effective at scoring points than he actually was, you couldn't design a better way to do it than TS%. The reality is, if you were the opponent, you didn't want to hack him. He scored 50% of his free throws but his effectiveness at accumulating points per foul at the line was more like 65% with those extra opportunities.


I think I understand but having those extra attempts probably led to him making a bunch more FT's so the harm to his TS% probably wasn't that bad.

Either way his ->50% FG<- in his high scoring years is not good for a bad FT shooting C and his FT shooting got worse when he was a more efficient (54%) yet lower volume scorer so again I don't see him posting good efficiency let alone elite efficiency on a consistent basis against the tougher competition in any era unless he improved his stroke from the line.
This guy was regularly below 40% from the line in his low scoring years. That is bad.

And were Wilt's FTA really inflated that much?
You're talking about a guy who supposedly had Shaq like ability to draw fouls down low and a guy who was playing in a faster era and played many more minutes and yet his P36 FTA mark is actually lower then Prime Shaqs.

Prime Shaq : 10.9 FTA
60-66 Wilt : 9.4 FTA
Used a 6 year sample for both.

Really though even Wilt's unadjusted FTA are only about one higher despite the pace and minute differences.
One could also mention that from what I know Wilt generally was quite inefficient VS Russ in the post-season which no TS% difference could cover up for.
The fact that he in many series seemed so containable and at times inefficient VS the only truly great defensive C of his era is not a good sign.
I mean Shaq didn't get nerfed against Hakeem.
Kareem didn't get nerfed against Walton.

Just another thing which strengthens the theory that Wilt wasn't a GOAT halfcourt scorer.
Doesn't mean he was a bad one either but I just don't currently think he was on that top level.


Wilt was easily more athletic than Shaq :lol:

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