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#Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread

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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1561 » by BeesWax » Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:30 am

Liver_Pooty wrote:
jdm3 wrote:
Liver_Pooty wrote:
Agree to disagree then. Off topic. Tired of discussing it

Sure.

So really why will we not play a real SG now. We have two who can hit shots rotting on our bench.


Daniels sure, Hairston hasn't shown a consistent shot all year.

That is the problem with young guys. Look at Hood before he got regular minutes. When their playing time goes up and down and they don't play a couple games then play a game then miss one then play two they all shoot weird. That is where you need vets. I guess Clifford does not believe he can give these guys regular minutes so he goes with none for fear they will react like most young guys when it fluctuates.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1562 » by Liver_Pooty » Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:42 am

jdm3 wrote:
Liver_Pooty wrote:
jdm3 wrote:Sure.

So really why will we not play a real SG now. We have two who can hit shots rotting on our bench.


Daniels sure, Hairston hasn't shown a consistent shot all year.

That is the problem with young guys. Look at Hood before he got regular minutes. When their playing time goes up and down and they don't play a couple games then play a game then miss one then play two they all shoot weird. That is where you need vets. I guess Clifford does not believe he can give these guys regular minutes so he goes with none for fear they will react like most young guys when it fluctuates.


I'm sure Hood doesn't miss weight training or forget to bring a suit on the road either.

Off topic.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1563 » by Braggins » Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:43 am

I really dont like how extreme Clifford takes his all or nothing approach to minutes.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1564 » by thruthefire » Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:31 am

What do Woodland High School, Adelpia
University and Charlotte all have in common?

He may have been a good lapdog to SVG, but he doesn't belong as a NBA head coach.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1565 » by Liver_Pooty » Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:05 am

Braggins wrote:I really dont like how extreme Clifford takes his all or nothing approach to minutes.


I really don't like Clifford at all right now. Benching Henderson for Mo who had shot 1 for 35 tonight was terrible.

I'm only saying this because of a logo underneath my name though/sarcasm.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1566 » by Hornet Mania » Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:03 pm

Just finished watching the game, what the hell man. This bum needs to go. Point blank. If they want to let him play our his contract, or think the young guys like him personally, then at MINIMUM we must bring in an offensive coordinator who has complete authority over that end of the floor. The Kings are a god-awful defensive team and George Karl is not known as a defensive guru, we still had almost no quality looks.

I understand that our guys are not great shooters, fine, but it's not like we're missing wide-open looks consistently. We get less open shots than the other team nearly every game, and we have a top-5 defense when everyone is healthy. That is simply unacceptable, I refuse to shrug and chalk it up lack of floor spacers or whatever. That is a piss-poor scheme, or no scheme, and it is killing us. How many more games do we need to watch guys setting screens with no purpose, or Kemba/Mo burning 15 seconds of clock before passing it into Hendo just to get the ball right back? That's not simply a personnel problem, the guys literally have no plan to work from many possessions and it's obvious to anyone who pays attention. One of the "plays" in the 3rd quarter was just laughable. We had Mo running off screens early in the clock, problem was it wasn't working. A team with an NBA-level offensive scheme would have some sort of safety valve or second option given that we still had 15 seconds left. Nope, we just ran Mo back and forth THREE TIMES under the basket until he finally got open for the shot he inevitably missed. It was crystal clear that Kemba (or it may have been Lance, can't be sure) was told to do nothing except hold the ball until Mo was open and then deliver it. That miserable inflexible train wreck is what passes for offensive sets in Charlotte.

We barely score more points a game than the Knicks. The Knicks. No one can ever convince me that our offensive talent is on par with that flaming bag of dog crap. Hendo alone would step in on day one and be their undisputed first option(this scenario assumes Melo's injury, btw). **** Clifford's offense, we need something different.

Rotations were typically awful. Mo over Hendo late in the game for #spacing? You betcha. Did that mean the Kings took full advantage of the Mo/Al defensive lapses for open looks and easy buckets? You're damn right they did. Also, Sactown starts 6/7 from 3pt land and stays scorching for the entire first half. Teams have found a massive liability in the way we play defense, no way that happens three straight games by pure coincidence.

Anyway, put this guy on the street or give him training wheels on the offensive end. One or the other.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1567 » by thruthefire » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:13 pm

Find out if Steve Nash wants to coach, and give him whatever he wants if he does.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1568 » by JDR720 » Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:59 am

I was wondering what type of shots we take, and how many we make so i went and found out.

shot attempts and FG% by distance from rim

0-5 feet 25.6 shots per game (5th fewest) at 54.6% (3rd worst)
5-9 feet 10.1 per game (6th most) at 41.6% (7th best)
10-14 feet 7.7 per game (8th most) at 36.2% (4th worst)
15-19 feet 18.5 per game ( 1st most) at 40.6% (13th best)
20-24 feet 10.3 per game (fewest) at 37.8% (10th best)
25 feet+ 11.7 per game (10th most) at 29.1%) (worst)

So, we take a lot of midrange shots (cliffords defense is about forcing midrange shots BTW) dont get shots in close and bomb deep threes. that is a recipe for a crap offense.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1569 » by DY_nasty » Sun Mar 22, 2015 8:25 am

JDR720 wrote:I was wondering what type of shots we take, and how many we make so i went and found out.

shot attempts and FG% by distance from rim

0-5 feet 25.6 shots per game (5th fewest) at 54.6% (3rd worst)
5-9 feet 10.1 per game (6th most) at 41.6% (7th best)
10-14 feet 7.7 per game (8th most) at 36.2% (4th worst)
15-19 feet 18.5 per game ( 1st most) at 40.6% (13th best)
20-24 feet 10.3 per game (fewest) at 37.8% (10th best)
25 feet+ 11.7 per game (10th most) at 29.1%) (worst)

So, we take a lot of midrange shots (cliffords defense is about forcing midrange shots BTW) dont get shots in close and bomb deep threes. that is a recipe for a crap offense.
I was saying it earlier because I'm really not a stats guy... but its crazy how much worse you feel about the product on the court when you see the accompanying numbers. Some things are just unreal. Like Kemba somehow having more touches than LBJ, Westbrook, Cousins, Curry, etc before he got hurt. Stuff like that is just bizarre. You'd have to go out of you way to create some of the issues that this team has.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1570 » by catch20two » Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:28 am

A major part of that problem is how terrible or disinterested Cho is in finding a wing player to put between MKG and Kemba that ain't afraid to create his own shot and isn't hesitant to shoot a 3 with little to no space. Hendo is okay or less and all but he's far from the answer. Hendo has played worse this year than he did last year when he took a lot of backlash for not being a suitable 3rd scorer but he just look decent because he's been a breath of fresh air compared to how much Lance has stunk it up. I'm not a Clifford fan at all and hope we find a replacement because he's just a Van Gundy robot with old data in need of a update but Cho hasn't helped his case much either.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1571 » by Vanderbilt_Grad » Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:36 pm

catch20two wrote:A major part of that problem is how terrible or disinterested Cho is in finding a wing player to put between MKG and Kemba that ain't afraid to create his own shot and isn't hesitant to shoot a 3 with little to no space.


1. Gordon Hayward – Cho made a serious play for this guy
2. Lance – Plan B, true
3. PJ – best shooting option on the board at that point - Cho could have gone in safer directions
4. Mo – in addition to PG duties I’m sure that there were assumptions that he would pay some with Kemba
5. Neil & Ridnour trade – both guys were brought in for shooting
etc,

I find the "Cho didn't try" narrative silly. Many of those moves haven't worked out for various reasons ... but at this point I'm convinced that Cliff simply doesn't know how to work with these guys. Another coach would have done things very differently offensively. Hell, even freaking Dunlap could have done better with this roster on O.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1572 » by catch20two » Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:46 pm

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote:
catch20two wrote:A major part of that problem is how terrible or disinterested Cho is in finding a wing player to put between MKG and Kemba that ain't afraid to create his own shot and isn't hesitant to shoot a 3 with little to no space.


1. Gordon Hayward – Cho made a serious play for this guy
2. Lance – Plan B, true
3. PJ – best shooting option on the board at that point - Cho could have gone in safer directions
4. Mo – in addition to PG duties I’m sure that there were assumptions that he would pay some with Kemba
5. Neil & Ridnour trade – both guys were brought in for shooting
etc,

I find the "Cho didn't try" narrative silly. Many of those moves haven't worked out for various reasons ... but at this point I'm convinced that Cliff simply doesn't know how to work with these guys. Another coach would have done things very differently offensively. Hell, even freaking Dunlap could have done better with this roster on O.

I didn't use the "Cho didn't try" narrative. I used the Cho is "terrible in finding it" narrative. That whole list of players that he TRIED or DID bring in only make me look at him even more sneed. Cho made a serious play to overpay for a guy he didn't have a chance at landing and if he did have a chance how much was he willing to trade away for Hayward? Lance was a last ditch FA effort after failing to land everyone else from Hayward to Parsons of somebody who couldn't really shoot but he had a decent year with the Pacers. PJ was a bad shot selection chucker to everybody that wasn't a Tarheels fan so I wouldn't give much credit to that. Mo Williams/Neal/Ridnour only drive my point home even more that Cho lack the ability to find the right SG, not just a shooter, to put between MKG and Kemba over the past 3 years. Cho has failed at doing so. The closest he came was that almost a month of CDR starting at SG with Hendo injured last year as a D-League pickup. A damn shame because he even let that guy walk and he wasn't even asking for much money, just a opportunity.

On topic tho, yes Clifford is a **** that don't know how to drive home a offensive gameplan other than the lackluster Alfense or PG heavy PnR to chuck offense. There's never enough off ball movement, screens, cuts in his offense, just a lot of passing the ball around the perimeter until it get to Al in the post and then more standing around.
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#Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1573 » by BigSlam » Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:15 pm

So Bickerstaff was terrible, Silas was terrible, Vincent was terrible, Dunlop was terrible and now Clifford is terrible?

Wait, am I detecting a theme here.....


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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1574 » by Vanderbilt_Grad » Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:30 pm

My picks:
2020 Draft (3rd pick) - Tyrese Haliburton, Devin Vassell, or Onyeka Okongwu
2021 Draft (11th pick) - Moses Moody
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1575 » by Vanderbilt_Grad » Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:31 pm

My picks:
2020 Draft (3rd pick) - Tyrese Haliburton, Devin Vassell, or Onyeka Okongwu
2021 Draft (11th pick) - Moses Moody
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1576 » by Hornet Mania » Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:23 pm

BigSlam wrote:So Bickerstaff was terrible, Silas was terrible, Vincent was terrible, Dunlop was terrible and now Clifford is terrible?

Wait, am I detecting a theme here.....


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To be fair, Bickerstaff and Dunlap were too awful to ever receive anything close to a passing interest from other teams for a HC position ever again. So those guys were bad at coaching independent of our situation. I actually think Bickerstaff was an okay GM, not a good drafter but he made some decent trades via the expansion draft and moved up from Livingston/Gerald Green-territory to get Okafor when he looked like a really nice prospect.

Vincent was a total joke.

Silas was a good coach but he was just too old by that point, the game had passed him by.

I'm not sure one can safely use the "everyone fails here, the problem is something else" excuse when the previous failures have never found success since they left and in most cases, before they got here.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1577 » by DY_nasty » Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:28 pm

catch20two wrote:
Vanderbilt_Grad wrote:
catch20two wrote:A major part of that problem is how terrible or disinterested Cho is in finding a wing player to put between MKG and Kemba that ain't afraid to create his own shot and isn't hesitant to shoot a 3 with little to no space.


1. Gordon Hayward – Cho made a serious play for this guy
2. Lance – Plan B, true
3. PJ – best shooting option on the board at that point - Cho could have gone in safer directions
4. Mo – in addition to PG duties I’m sure that there were assumptions that he would pay some with Kemba
5. Neil & Ridnour trade – both guys were brought in for shooting
etc,

I find the "Cho didn't try" narrative silly. Many of those moves haven't worked out for various reasons ... but at this point I'm convinced that Cliff simply doesn't know how to work with these guys. Another coach would have done things very differently offensively. Hell, even freaking Dunlap could have done better with this roster on O.

I didn't use the "Cho didn't try" narrative. I used the Cho is "terrible in finding it" narrative. That whole list of players that he TRIED or DID bring in only make me look at him even more sneed. Cho made a serious play to overpay for a guy he didn't have a chance at landing and if he did have a chance how much was he willing to trade away for Hayward? Lance was a last ditch FA effort after failing to land everyone else from Hayward to Parsons of somebody who couldn't really shoot but he had a decent year with the Pacers. PJ was a bad shot selection chucker to everybody that wasn't a Tarheels fan so I wouldn't give much credit to that. Mo Williams/Neal/Ridnour only drive my point home even more that Cho lack the ability to find the right SG, not just a shooter, to put between MKG and Kemba over the past 3 years. Cho has failed at doing so. The closest he came was that almost a month of CDR starting at SG with Hendo injured last year as a D-League pickup. A damn shame because he even let that guy walk and he wasn't even asking for much money, just a opportunity.

On topic tho, yes Clifford is a **** that don't know how to drive home a offensive gameplan other than the lackluster Alfense or PG heavy PnR to chuck offense. There's never enough off ball movement, screens, cuts in his offense, just a lot of passing the ball around the perimeter until it get to Al in the post and then more standing around.
1st off, Hayward isn't overpaid lol. And Lance wasn't last ditch either. Not sure how you figure that tbh.

The whole team's shot selection is bad. Literally everyone is playing outside of their role. Clifford would probably make Ginobli look like Marshon Brooks man...

Again, it'd be different if guys were missing wide open shots - but no, we're routinely less prepared than the Knicks. Take a look at a Knicks game. They'll actually run the hell out of a play. Fisher has guys that've never played more than PnR basketball at a directional school moving through the triangle offense with regularity and fluidity. Their players just suck and you'll quickly be reminded of how a well-coached but barely talented team looks like. This team doesn't even have a philosophical strength on offense. Like... what do we tell our players that we are good at? What is our bread and butter on offense? lol
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1578 » by catch20two » Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:05 pm

DY_nasty wrote:
catch20two wrote:
Vanderbilt_Grad wrote:
1. Gordon Hayward – Cho made a serious play for this guy
2. Lance – Plan B, true
3. PJ – best shooting option on the board at that point - Cho could have gone in safer directions
4. Mo – in addition to PG duties I’m sure that there were assumptions that he would pay some with Kemba
5. Neil & Ridnour trade – both guys were brought in for shooting
etc,

I find the "Cho didn't try" narrative silly. Many of those moves haven't worked out for various reasons ... but at this point I'm convinced that Cliff simply doesn't know how to work with these guys. Another coach would have done things very differently offensively. Hell, even freaking Dunlap could have done better with this roster on O.

I didn't use the "Cho didn't try" narrative. I used the Cho is "terrible in finding it" narrative. That whole list of players that he TRIED or DID bring in only make me look at him even more sneed. Cho made a serious play to overpay for a guy he didn't have a chance at landing and if he did have a chance how much was he willing to trade away for Hayward? Lance was a last ditch FA effort after failing to land everyone else from Hayward to Parsons of somebody who couldn't really shoot but he had a decent year with the Pacers. PJ was a bad shot selection chucker to everybody that wasn't a Tarheels fan so I wouldn't give much credit to that. Mo Williams/Neal/Ridnour only drive my point home even more that Cho lack the ability to find the right SG, not just a shooter, to put between MKG and Kemba over the past 3 years. Cho has failed at doing so. The closest he came was that almost a month of CDR starting at SG with Hendo injured last year as a D-League pickup. A damn shame because he even let that guy walk and he wasn't even asking for much money, just a opportunity.

On topic tho, yes Clifford is a **** that don't know how to drive home a offensive gameplan other than the lackluster Alfense or PG heavy PnR to chuck offense. There's never enough off ball movement, screens, cuts in his offense, just a lot of passing the ball around the perimeter until it get to Al in the post and then more standing around.
1st off, Hayward isn't overpaid lol. And Lance wasn't last ditch either. Not sure how you figure that tbh.

The whole team's shot selection is bad. Literally everyone is playing outside of their role. Clifford would probably make Ginobli look like Marshon Brooks man...

Again, it'd be different if guys were missing wide open shots - but no, we're routinely less prepared than the Knicks. Take a look at a Knicks game. They'll actually run the hell out of a play. Fisher has guys that've never played more than PnR basketball at a directional school moving through the triangle offense with regularity and fluidity. Their players just suck and you'll quickly be reminded of how a well-coached but barely talented team looks like. This team doesn't even have a philosophical strength on offense. Like... what do we tell our players that we are good at? What is our bread and butter on offense? lol

Hayward is overpaid, yes. No player should have a max contract without being a all-star, champion, or leader of a perennial playoff contender.

And yes Lance was a last ditch effort after we struck out on Hayward and Parsons. Cho didn't even want him which was understandable but he coulda did a better job of signing better players than Marv and Roberts beforehand.

And yes Clifford is a horrible in-game coach, robotic and so easy to counter coach. Agreed.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1579 » by LamarMatic7 » Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:11 pm

DY_nasty wrote:Again, it'd be different if guys were missing wide open shots - but no, we're routinely less prepared than the Knicks. Take a look at a Knicks game. They'll actually run the hell out of a play. Fisher has guys that've never played more than PnR basketball at a directional school moving through the triangle offense with regularity and fluidity. Their players just suck and you'll quickly be reminded of how a well-coached but barely talented team looks like. This team doesn't even have a philosophical strength on offense. Like... what do we tell our players that we are good at? What is our bread and butter on offense? lol

It's besides the point but I just wanted to say that I see something else when it comes to the Knicks moving with regularity and fluidity. A lot of pointing going on and the 5 guys getting into their set belatedly.

Not to say that I blame a couple of energy 12th men and D-Leaguers having trouble to learn it on the fly, but, yes, I don't see the cohesion you see.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1580 » by DY_nasty » Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:20 pm

^^The Knicks are currently what a team with a complete lack of talent but good coaching look like.
catch20two wrote:
DY_nasty wrote:
catch20two wrote:I didn't use the "Cho didn't try" narrative. I used the Cho is "terrible in finding it" narrative. That whole list of players that he TRIED or DID bring in only make me look at him even more sneed. Cho made a serious play to overpay for a guy he didn't have a chance at landing and if he did have a chance how much was he willing to trade away for Hayward? Lance was a last ditch FA effort after failing to land everyone else from Hayward to Parsons of somebody who couldn't really shoot but he had a decent year with the Pacers. PJ was a bad shot selection chucker to everybody that wasn't a Tarheels fan so I wouldn't give much credit to that. Mo Williams/Neal/Ridnour only drive my point home even more that Cho lack the ability to find the right SG, not just a shooter, to put between MKG and Kemba over the past 3 years. Cho has failed at doing so. The closest he came was that almost a month of CDR starting at SG with Hendo injured last year as a D-League pickup. A damn shame because he even let that guy walk and he wasn't even asking for much money, just a opportunity.

On topic tho, yes Clifford is a **** that don't know how to drive home a offensive gameplan other than the lackluster Alfense or PG heavy PnR to chuck offense. There's never enough off ball movement, screens, cuts in his offense, just a lot of passing the ball around the perimeter until it get to Al in the post and then more standing around.
1st off, Hayward isn't overpaid lol. And Lance wasn't last ditch either. Not sure how you figure that tbh.

The whole team's shot selection is bad. Literally everyone is playing outside of their role. Clifford would probably make Ginobli look like Marshon Brooks man...

Again, it'd be different if guys were missing wide open shots - but no, we're routinely less prepared than the Knicks. Take a look at a Knicks game. They'll actually run the hell out of a play. Fisher has guys that've never played more than PnR basketball at a directional school moving through the triangle offense with regularity and fluidity. Their players just suck and you'll quickly be reminded of how a well-coached but barely talented team looks like. This team doesn't even have a philosophical strength on offense. Like... what do we tell our players that we are good at? What is our bread and butter on offense? lol

Hayward is overpaid, yes. No player should have a max contract without being a all-star, champion, or leader of a perennial playoff contender.

And yes Lance was a last ditch effort after we struck out on Hayward and Parsons. Cho didn't even want him which was understandable but he coulda did a better job of signing better players than Marv and Roberts beforehand.

And yes Clifford is a horrible in-game coach, robotic and so easy to counter coach. Agreed.

That's your qualifier, not the league's. Just saying. We never made an offer for Parson either.

I still think that Marv isn't a bad player for the MLE - we just use him in ways that should never happen. I never thought once that he should ever be in a situation where he sees over 30 minutes of play with most of that time at PF and I'm sure that Brian Roberts never thought he'd be doing anything other than bringing the ball up the court and dumping it off to Al but he's supposed to be our Jamal Crawford for whatever reason so what can you do....

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