All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread

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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#21 » by Dr Spaceman » Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:49 pm

Chuck Texas wrote:6MOY for me comes down to Lou Williams, Isaiah Thomas(will changing teams kill his chances?), and Taj Gibson.

I think Thomas should win the award. He embodies the idea of the classic 6th man from Microwave to Eddie Johnson to JET to Jamal only with a great deal more efficiency than 6th men normally have. I have no problem with him being a top offensive option on the Celtics as other winners have been main options as well. Gibson is getting overlooked again as people are excited about Mirotic, but he's just such a good player defensively and not bad offensively.


No mention of Iguodala? He's the runaway favorite for me, to the point where I don't know that anyone else has a case. He's still a super impactful player when he plays.

Gibson has had a pretty down year by his standards. Hasn't been up to par defensively, and his PER is exactly the same as last year. Slightly more efficient but scoring at a way lower rate. Plus Mirotic has arguably outshine him in the past month or so. I think he should've won it last year, but he's fallen off this season.
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#22 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:25 pm

Posting this everywhere relevant: Zach Lowe's awards ballots with reasoning. Great place to start your thinking.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/nba-a ... ndividual/
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#23 » by fuzzy_dunlop » Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:13 pm

^
My only quibble is 6moy (can't reward Drake like that), otherwise Lowe nails it.
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#24 » by ceiling raiser » Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:51 pm

My impression is that there is a lot of support in the media for DeAndre Jordan for DPOY, but I just don't see the argument to be made for him.

Is there a real chance he wins?
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#25 » by Dr Spaceman » Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:12 pm

fpliii wrote:My impression is that there is a lot of support in the media for DeAndre Jordan for DPOY, but I just don't see the argument to be made for him.

Is there a real chance he wins?


Would be an absolute travesty if he wins honestly. Just a glaring example that even in this era of an overwhelming amount of data we can still have a large majority of the intelligentsia who still don't understand what works on defense and how to evaluate it. Jordan winning DPOY would be nothing more than a huge swath of the people we trust remaining willfully ignorant.

I feel very strongly about this.
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#26 » by Clyde Frazier » Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:43 pm

Wish bogut was more in the 28-30 MPG and 70+ games played range. Think he'd have a legit shot at DPOY if that were the case. He'd get my vote.
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#27 » by bondom34 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:19 pm

fpliii wrote:My impression is that there is a lot of support in the media for DeAndre Jordan for DPOY, but I just don't see the argument to be made for him.

Is there a real chance he wins?

I'd lose a lot of faith in the media vote.
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#28 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:20 pm

I don't think the media has elected the rightful DPOY in a while, but them getting DeAndre Jordan would be beyond silly.

To the media's credit, the last few DPOYs haven't been guys who put up the best boxscore stats. I do think defensive intangibles are recognized. We may always have a scare every year that guys like Serge Ibaka and DeAndre Jordan may win, but something like that hasn't happened since Marcus Camby.


My general gut feeling is that Draymond Green will be the favorite to get the award.
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#29 » by nurseryc » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:34 pm

Clyde Frazier wrote:Wish bogut was more in the 28-30 MPG and 70+ games played range. Think he'd have a legit shot at DPOY if that were the case. He'd get my vote.


It really is criminal how underrated Bogut is.
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Re: 

Post#30 » by kaiballz » Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:04 am

OPOY: Westbrook, harden
DPOY: Green, Bogut
ROY: Wiggins
6MOY: iggy
MIP: Green, butler
COY: Kerr
EOY: griffin
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#31 » by Dr Spaceman » Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:36 pm

Can Anthony Davis get any support for Most Improved? He's been better in almost every noticeable way, especially on defense. Guy jumped from a 26.5 PER to the 11th highest ever (30.8). I don't know if anyone has made "the leap" as convincingly as Davis. Other than him already being a star last year, what would be the case against him?
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All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#32 » by basketballbeans » Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:16 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:Can Anthony Davis get any support for Most Improved? He's been better in almost every noticeable way, especially on defense. Guy jumped from a 26.5 PER to the 11th highest ever (30.8). I don't know if anyone has made "the leap" as convincingly as Davis. Other than him already being a star last year, what would be the case against him?


He was an all star starter last year. He's improved him game but he's already established himself as a dominant player before this season began. Someone like Butler, was an average player last year who broke out to be an all-star this year.





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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#33 » by nurseryc » Sun Apr 19, 2015 2:26 am

Reasons why Bogut should win the DPOY:-

The Numbers

First in DBPM by a big margin
First in DRPM also by a huge margin
First in rim contest rate and second in opponent FG% at the rim. Therefore first in points saved

Opponents shoot worse against him from all over the floor
6th in DREB%

Nobody in the NBA has a resume that can hold up that statistically, unless you consider raw blocks, steals and rebounds to be important defensive metrics (they are not, DeAndre).

Role in Team Defense

Warriors are 1st in the league with a 100.4 DRtg. While DPOY often goes to the rim protector on the best defensive team, people aren't looking at it that way because the Dubs also have great defenders in Klay and especially Dray. However, it must be considered the margin by which they are the best defense - the difference between them and No. 2 (Spurs) is the same as the difference between No. 2 and No. 9 (Hawks). Based on this, it is not crazy to suggest they have the best interior and perimeter defenders.

His individual DRTG is the best on the team, slightly ahead of fellow DPOY candidate Draymond Green.

The Dubs have won 87.9% of their games when Bogut has played, and only 60.0% when he hasn't. That's the difference between the greatest team in history (by a long shot when you consider how good the West is) and the 2015 Mavs.

The Eye Test

When healthy, Bogut has always been an elite defender. He keeps people out of the paint with the sheer mass and great positioning of Marc Gasol, but contests even better as he has has more athleticism proportionately longer arms. When he has played this year, the Dubs defense seems smothering - the type you have to shoot over basically every time. While he isn't the defensive playmaker Green is, he just makes them that much more frustrating to play against.
He is also better on the glass than the numbers make him look, as he is solid on box outs in addition to snatching boards.
Games Played

A few months ago the primary argument against Bogut was that he had missed too many games (15). But now he has played 80% of the Dubs total, and that number will be 82% if he plays the rest: 67 total games.

The following DPOYs have been close to that number in the last 10 years:

Kevin Garnett, 2008 (71)
Marcus Camby, 2007 (70)

Additionally, Westbrook is in the MVP conversation (though not a strong contender) and has played only 1 more game than Bogut.
The other argument is minutes, but its not a great one. Nobody plays big minutes on the Dubs because they are so damn good they don't need them to - and that is even more true when he has suited up. The fact that Bogut raises their win% by that much playing around half the game makes it that much more impressive.

So, the question is, should the big Aussie be punished for missing a few measly games, especially considering his team has been much worse in them?

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Post#34 » by SactoKingsFan » Sun Apr 19, 2015 2:54 am

^ Camby had no business winning DPOY and Garnett played way more minutes than Bogut, who played <1600 mins.
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#35 » by ardee » Sun Apr 19, 2015 7:09 am

My ballots:

DPOY

1. Draymond Green
2. Kawhi Leonard (he has the chance to take no. 1)
3. Andrew Bogut (same as Lowe but what can I say, the man knows what he's talking about)

Sixth Man

1. Isaiah Thomas (won't even bother with a top 3, really dc about this award)

Most Improved

1. Hassan Whiteside
2. Rudy Gobert
3. Jimmy Butler

Rookie of the Year

1. Wiggins
2. Nikola (if this is full season, he has the chance to take no. 1)
3. Noel
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#36 » by Clyde Frazier » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:35 am

Lou Williams wins 6th man of the year

Williams, in his 10th NBA season and first with the Raptors, amassed 78 first-place votes and 502 total points from a panel of 130 sportswriters and broadcasters throughout the United States and Canada. Isaiah Thomas of the Boston Celtics finished second with 324 points (33 first-place votes), and two-time winner Jamal Crawford of the Los Angeles Clippers was third with 131 points (eight first-place votes).


http://www.nba.com/2015/news/04/20/lou- ... man-award/

Voting breakdown:

http://official.nba.com/wp-content/uplo ... ts-PDF.pdf

Iguodala did get some love. Bill Wennington with the 1st place vote for Speights :o

Although taking a closer look, Jason Kosmicki's 1st place vote for Corey Brewer is worse.
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#37 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:47 am

Dr Spaceman wrote:Can Anthony Davis get any support for Most Improved? He's been better in almost every noticeable way, especially on defense. Guy jumped from a 26.5 PER to the 11th highest ever (30.8). I don't know if anyone has made "the leap" as convincingly as Davis. Other than him already being a star last year, what would be the case against him?


Well first I want to be clear:

I have not put any OTHER rules in place about these new awards to separate them from the criteria of the NBA, but I have said that it's not acceptable to ignore a player simply because he's too good. Davis should absolutely be on people's minds here.

But at this point I'm still inclined to go with Gobert. He went from a nobody that basically no one was talking about to being perhaps the most feared defensive player in the league, and objectively he's stat jumps were massive: Near 9 point PER jump, and his WS went from 0.4 to 9.3. Just huge.
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#38 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:52 am

Clyde Frazier wrote:Lou Williams wins 6th man of the year

Williams, in his 10th NBA season and first with the Raptors, amassed 78 first-place votes and 502 total points from a panel of 130 sportswriters and broadcasters throughout the United States and Canada. Isaiah Thomas of the Boston Celtics finished second with 324 points (33 first-place votes), and two-time winner Jamal Crawford of the Los Angeles Clippers was third with 131 points (eight first-place votes).


http://www.nba.com/2015/news/04/20/lou- ... man-award/

Voting breakdown:

http://official.nba.com/wp-content/uplo ... ts-PDF.pdf

Iguodala did get some love. Bill Wennington with the 1st place vote for Speights :o

Although taking a closer look, Jason Kosmicki's 1st place vote for Corey Brewer is worse.


I'd love to cull the list by saying: Anyone who all 3 of their votes went to combo guards who do nothing but chuck, please never write about basketball again. Seems like that's half the guys voting.

Speaking more realistically: It's so messed up that people have come to view that one role as "the 6th man" role. It's not supposed to be the "biggest scorer off the bench" award, it's supposed to be about the guy who is a starter level player but who comes off the bench to help balance out your rotation. The former can be the latter, but by no means should it be the go-to type of player people look at here. Guys like that are typically on the bench precisely because they aren't good enough to play their role on a quality starting lineup and really for the most part aren't more worthy of recognition than the guys who start ahead of them.
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#39 » by Jaivl » Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:20 am

Let's go. 21/04 standings:

OPOY:
#1: Stephen Curry
#2: James Harden
#3: Chris Paul
HM: LeBron James

Can't go wrong with any of this 4 choices. Curry is going to be my #1, as the catalyst of the second best offense of the NBA with a just decent offensive cast. Paul has more to work with... for 30 minutes a game. Starters are great, but the team is ~20 (!!!) points worse on offense when he's off the floor. Harden got to build a above average offense by himself, with exactly zero above average offensive players. Offense is "just" (compared with Paul) +14 points better with him on court, but the next best mark is Josh Smith with +3.3, insane!! LeBron did his usual stuff of leading +112 ORtg offenses when healthy.

DPOY:
#1: Draymond Green
#2: Andrew Bogut
#3: Kawhi Leonard
HM: Rudy Gobert, Khris Middleton

Tight race here. I eventually put Green on first place based almost entirely on minutes played, edging his teammate Bogut, who I feel was the DPOY/minute. Leonard checks as the best perimeter defender in the league. I'm still not sure he's more valuable than Duncan in that end but the team certainly noted his absence (around 9 points worse on the games he missed). Honorific mention Rudy Gobert turned around the Utah defense all by himself and is probably the most intimidating presence in the paint in the league, at only 22 years old. Middleton was the main catalyst of a impressive #3 defense in Milwaukee.

6MOY:
#1: Andre Iguodala
#2: Lou Williams
#3: Rudy Gobert
HM: Isaiah Thomas

Iggy is still a bonafide star in my opinion. Lineups with him replacing Barnes have been, well, GOAT. Introducing again... the Gobert show! It's a bit of a cheat, but hell, he's been that good. Utah's defense got near-top of the league with him replacing Kanter on the starting lineup. Lou and Isaiah are both deserving candidates, the prototype of a microwave player. With Lowry in a down year, Lou has probably been the most dangerous offensive player on a #4 ranked offense. Isaiah gets "penalized" because he is essentially the #1 option in Boston.

MIP:

#1: Hassan Whiteside
#2: Rudy Gobert
#3: Anthony Davis
HM: Jimmy Butler

I feel I don't have to comment here, we all know what happened with Whitesanity, Davis and Butler. And again, the Gobert show.

ROY:

#1: Nerlens Noel
#2: Andrew Wiggins
#3: Nikola Mirotic
HM: Marcus Smart

Mirotic is the clear better player right now, but both Noel and Wiggins were put in difficult situations: lead the 76ers defense (Noel) and be the star of the injury ridden Wolves, whose 2 best players played around 40 games combined (Wiggins) and did well (Noel) and not-well-at-all-but-showed-some-promise-and-I-think-that-fits-better-on-the-ROY-narrative (Wiggins).

COY:

#1: Mike Budenholzer
#2: Steve Kerr
#3: Gregg Popovich
HM: Jason Kidd

60 wins on a projected ~45 win team. Best RS team since the Jordan-Bulls. GOAT coach. #6 seed on a projected lotto team. Not a lot to discuss here.

EOY:

#1: Danny Ainge

Really my only candidate. Got rid of Rondo for a better PG, built a core full of young, promising players, got into the PO, and as a extra Boston still has lots and lots of draft picks.
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#40 » by Quotatious » Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:52 pm

Kawhi just won DPOY. First perimeter player who won this award since Artest in 2004, and only the third since Rodman in '91 (Payton won in '96).

I think it's well deserved, he's clearly something special on defense, although I'm always wary of giving it to a perimeter player, because interior defenders usually have more impact, due to the nature of the game. With Kawhi, I'm glad they made an exception, though.

What do you think, guys?

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