O.T. .::THE SCIENCE AND PHILOSOPHY THREAD::.

[And100]

Yes we are limited in our ability to fully grasp many things which are currently beyond our comprehension. That is why eternal life will never be boring,

Or why there may not be eternal life.

It's nice that God puts spiritual matters into human expressions we can relate to.

Or we created God and used the expressions we knew.

God really digs us. He has proved it by way of his activities and dealings with mankind.

No proof.

[Iron Mantis]

Is it reasonable to believe He should truly do so? He is the Creator, so he rightfully deserves to be acknowledged, honored, and glorified as such.

And since he created all, he designed it so people would have to glorify him, by rule.

That suggests ego, which is product of pride.

Personally if I, from scratch, made an intelligent life form, or even an AI, not of my exact nature, and it surpassed me in intelligence, wisdom, and power, I think it could likely become presumptuous, gun for my spot and maybe even try to eliminate me or want me to worship it; I personally am not in compliance with such a possibility occurring. That strikes me as being incredibly naive.

The wisdom and intelligence part cancels out the squabbling or fear about maintaining position or deference. That is an expression of frail, human anxiety.

If his creation was wiser and more intelligent than he, would someone as wise as God defer voluntarily?

God is Holy in the absolute degree and is incapable of corruptibility. The creation is not incapable of choosing to sin, they have free will, so if they should CHOOSE to become presumptuous and God actually made them more powerful than Himself,

God should have faith ... in himself.

He sent us Jesus, but then it appears you are arguing Jesus was corruptible.

It's difficult to imagine God being interested in us personally, but when you analyze His activities

There is no "activity" to analyze. Only theory.

One action is He sent His first act of creation, Jesus, into the world in order to reclaim what Adam lost: the prospect of humans having everlasting life on a peaceful earth.

Or that never happened. You don't prove a theory with another theory.

Religion, however, replies on it.

If Loki said that, He was right It's natural for us to want to be lead, we are hardwired that way, and ultimately it's for the benefit and prosperity of the human race.

Not all of us.

That what you say it true is IMO, a vast component of the problem.

Yes, Jesus had the ability to choose to turn against God, but he did not.

If you don't believe Jesus was were, quickly dismiss it entirely, that's your choice. Many others have taken the time to investigate and found it to be true.

If you quickly dismiss God's activities as a "theory", saying there's nothing to investigate, that again is your prerogative. I can't force you to take the time to do so.

[And100]

Is it reasonable to believe He should truly do so? He is the Creator, so he rightfully deserves to be acknowledged, honored, and glorified as such.

And since he created all, he designed it so people would have to glorify him, by rule.

That suggests ego, which is product of pride.

Personally if I, from scratch, made an intelligent life form, or even an AI, not of my exact nature, and it surpassed me in intelligence, wisdom, and power, I think it could likely become presumptuous, gun for my spot and maybe even try to eliminate me or want me to worship it; I personally am not in compliance with such a possibility occurring. That strikes me as being incredibly naive.

The wisdom and intelligence part cancels out the squabbling or fear about maintaining position or deference. That is an expression of frail, human anxiety.

If his creation was wiser and more intelligent than he, would someone as wise as God defer voluntarily?

God is Holy in the absolute degree and is incapable of corruptibility. The creation is not incapable of choosing to sin, they have free will, so if they should CHOOSE to become presumptuous and God actually made them more powerful than Himself,

God should have faith ... in himself.

He sent us Jesus, but then it appears you are arguing Jesus was corruptible.

It's difficult to imagine God being interested in us personally, but when you analyze His activities

There is no "activity" to analyze. Only theory.

One action is He sent His first act of creation, Jesus, into the world in order to reclaim what Adam lost: the prospect of humans having everlasting life on a peaceful earth.

Or that never happened. You don't prove a theory with another theory.

Religion, however, replies on it.

If Loki said that, He was right It's natural for us to want to be lead, we are hardwired that way, and ultimately it's for the benefit and prosperity of the human race.

Not all of us.

That what you say it true is IMO, a vast component of the problem.

Yes, Jesus had the ability to choose to turn against God, but he did not.

If you don't believe Jesus was were, quickly dismiss it entirely, that's your choice. Many others have taken the time to investigate and found it to be true.

If you quickly dismiss God's activities as a "theory", saying there's nothing to investigate, that again is your prerogative. I can't force you to take the time to do so.

Theories are exactly what you investigate and why you investigate them. To prove or disprove them. Unless any of these activities have been proven, they remain by definition, theory.

And no one has found anything to be true. They've only decided to believe it.

Not once have I offered the fact others have concluded what I have as relevant evidence.

But that's neither here nor there. It took a while, but closer we finally got to self-expression, the more you describe the version of God I don't get - the one who's ego is served by infinitely inferior beings worshipping him. The one that created a throne and one that wouldn't gladly give it up for the greater good, even if a more wise being emerged. One that you describe as prideful and self-interested and anxious about maintaining his position atop the ruling class.

I've given the idea considerable thought and when you ask certain question I inevitably arrive where you just did EVERY time.

"God" is all too human and prone to our familiar foibles, fears and frailities.

Which of course, is an inherent contradiction.

[stuporman]

If everyone followed the Bible's laws and principles as stated through Christianity, the world would peaceful and an absolute delight to live in.

Just one example: "love your neighbor as yourself". If everyone submitted to this lone command, how different would the world be?

Except it was written by man, manipulated by man and argued over by man with most of the believers in the book not even following it. The whole follow the rules or be damned in eternity thing is fear mongering to control people. It's ironically so unbiblical!

The Bible was "inspired by God", as man was "moved by" God's applied energy, or active force. That's why even though God inspired many different men from all walks of life to pen His thoughts, many whom have never even met each other, it contains an interweaving harmonious theme with scores of corresponding prophecies, none of which have ever failed.

Just some examples of proof of the Bible being divinely inspired are scientific facts that were penned hundreds and in some instances, thousands of years before scientists finally caught up by way of modern discoveries.

The hallmark of divine inspiration is prophecy though. Many many prophecies and their fulfillment to the tee is contained within the Bible.

Prophecies about exactly when the Messiah would appear, exactly how he would live, his activities, where he would be born, be treated, how long his ministry would last before he was killed, exactly how he would be betrayed, and so many other things are throughout the so-called "old testament" were penned hundreds of years before he was even born.

Many prophecies about Empires and kings that would rise, fall, who they would conquered by, and even in one instance, the exact name of a king who would conquer Babylon was penned 200 years before he was even born.

There's so many more prophecies, many even in their fulfillment right NOW, that I cannot possibly name them all right now. I need some sleep lol.

God has the ability to preserve His written word, so any alterations by shady men have been weeded out. The Bible is the most widely circulated book on the earth and has withstood waves and waves of persecution over the centuries after it's being completed.

Those who "believe" in the Bible and don't actually live by its teachings can't truly believe, or they would exercise faith by applying it's teachings.

The "eternal damnation in a fiery hell" is one of many unscriptural doctrines that apostate Christendom stole from philosophies and pagan religions to scare members into their control for monetary gain, political influence and power. Such a teaching is found nowhere in the Bible and true Christians don't subscribe to that extra-biblical idea.

God has judged and will soon execute judgement upon the religions peddling His Word, slaughtering innocent people over the centuries and misrepresenting Him. In fact there is a major prophecy on the horizon of being fulfilled which states that He will maneuver political powers to unite for the purpose of entirely removing false religion from the world scene, under their understanding that they are actually acting in their own interests of bringing about global "peace and security".

There's the circular logic at work.... By putting "inspired by God" and "moved by God" label on it we now have to obey what man says about it because they are the self anointed vessels of what God wants us to do.

The whole Christian theology including messianic prophesy is adopted, borrowed and stolen from other cultures, it's just that Christians don't want to acknowledge it.

You say eternal hell fire isn't scriptural but so many other Christians say it is, so who of you are the anointed ones to tell us which is the right interpretation? If you don't think that it's real what then is the consequence of not submitting to the bible's laws and rules?.... and that is on the condition we know who is telling the truth about it. Heaven forbid we listen to the wrong person... pun intended.

[be reasonable]

He is pleasant indeed if you take the time to get to know Him.

Again, I'm neither speaking out of total ignorance. And again, the appeal isn't there.

He is good in that He provided a permanent solution for the rebellion which will permanently alleviate all suffering and usher in a peaceful new world where we can live forever with no sickness or sorrow; how can you beat that?

Eliminate the 6000 years of sickness and sorrow from the equation? Don't let children be tortured and murdered to prove a point?

Being "happy, good, and kind", according to God's standards as described in The Bible, not our own, will yield the reward of everlasting life on a peaceful earth. Nothing can compare to such a prospect, which was God's original purpose for mankind since He created us.

Everlasting life on a peaceful Earth holds zero appeal, I can say that because I have no fear of simply not existing.

I can't imagine anyone can even describe what "life" is like. Are they movies on an everlasting life on a peaceful earth? What are they about if conflict is non-existent?

Professional sports? Who gets to win the Superbowl?

Bacon and Bourbon?

Oral sex?

Which companion do I spend my time with, my current one or my deceased one? Are my children children or adults? Can I have more? Is there even relationships on an everlasting peaceful Earth?

Any experience we can relate to has human that make us curious, excited or satisfied us seems irrelevant in this world.

As I say, can't relate to it at all and the platitude that I can't understand now it but it'll be wonderful is empty rhetoric to me.

I addressed your original wanting of an explanation by way of God's revealed purpose, as set forth in the Bible. Millions find this explanation logical, reasonable, and see exactly how it makes sense; God created us, He knows what's best for us and has the right to rule us, which is only to our benefit.

These millions have been applying the practical wisdom found in the Bible and have a considerable measure of love, peace, joy, and happiness now and face the future with optimism and hope.

If the 6,000 years of suffering is removed, then as far as all intelligent creation is concerned, perhaps mankind actually CAN rule themselves successfully and actually CAN "be like God, knowing good and bad" for themselves; It was necessary to settle that issue. We now know we NEED God's direction, we simply aren't capable of running the show without Him. Anyone who has suffered and died as a result of this rebellion, whether by old age, illness, unforeseen occurrence, etc, or by man's hands, will indeed return.

It's sad it's been like this, but we have to blame the original rebels for forcing us into this situation in the first place; however, God allowed "the creation to be subjected to" this "futility, on the basis of hope". He lovingly immediately made a plan to redeem the (human)creation from this mess, and thankfully it's happy climax is finally very very close.

"Wisdom is proved righteous by its works". Mankind ruling us has proven to be to our detriment, who can argue that? So those of us who are sighing and groaning over these things place faith and hope in a better alternative: trusting in our Creator who is holding out a sure hope that no human ruler has the power or intent to deliver.

Yes there will certainly be movies, sports, good and endless varieties of food and beverage; what kinds exactly, who Knows? We do know humans will reach their full potential with greedy corporations, world leaders, and selfish gain being a thing of the past.

Things will simply be done to according to God's standards of good and bad, since it's overwhelmingly obvious that man having in his own jurisdiction the right to choose good and bad for himself has proven to be an utterly disastrous venture.

God knows what's best for our happiness, and He promises to "open His hand and satisfy the desire of every living thing". He says "“Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, nor have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him.” All we've known is misery, so it's difficult to imagine what life of God's intent is like, but that's no reason to dismiss the reality or beauty of it.

This alternative appeals to many who know God has the irresistible power and earnest desire to fulfill these promises; it's his unfailing purpose to do so, who can really stop Him? He has a strict timetable to make it happen. He Created the universe and life, two things we've been grasping at understanding since our existence and haven't come close to fully doing so.

Relationships will certainly exist; God is the instituter of marriage, romantic love, and the pleasure it brings. It's his purpose for perfect humans to "fill the earth", so marriage and procreation will definitely exist.

There will still be families. Children will grow to the peak of adulthood and remain at their physical peak, and us older ones will return to our peak, with no more of the breakdown the current aging process brings, which is actually the process of racing towards death the moments we are born with this genetic defect, an imperfection called "sin" which initiates the march towards death. God has promised to remove it by way of provisions which will be fully revealed in His new system on earth under His Kingdom rule.

Death dissolves the marriage bond, "til death do us part", so it would be wise to keep your current companion as you don't know how the resurrected person will feel, but the profound experience of being nonexistent in death likely changes original romantic feelings; I'm not going to be dogmatic about it.

We don't have all the details about the resurrection, so we will have to make sure we are there to behold it. We know God "is a God not of disorder, but of peace". Thus, It's reasonable to conclude people will return in an organized way that will lead to peace; people will look the same, be easily identifiable and recognizable to their loved ones, just healthy, without physical ailments or the ill effects of aging they perished with and children will return as children.

If these promises hold no appeal to you, it's unfortunate, but it's your prerogative; again we have free will to choose to be a part of it or not. God and many millions would love for you to be a part of it. Many many others are excited by this hope and they are reaching out and taking hold of it.

I guess the best why to put this. Every being acts for its own ends, That end being what is the greater good for itself. God the author of all life the uncaused cause who exsisted always with no begining. Created the Angels for his own glory and to show forth his beauty and goodness, Beings infinitley beyond any man but still infinitley inferior to him.

Angels seeing their beauty and goodness where given a choice to Accept God as their creator and serve him. Satan seeing his own beauty and goodness. Thought himself to be like unto God and should sit in the highest heaven at his side as ruler, lead a rebellion against God. He was Cast down by another angel named michael who uttered the simple but brilliant phrase."who is like unto God". Satan and the rebelious angels commited an infinite offense of which their is no forgiveness, because unlike man created after them. Angels possesed knowledge of themselves of God and their creation. They were created perfectly unto themselves each according to its own order.

God who is goodness himself created man to replace the fallen angels. Which is the Genesis account of creation. Satan literally took the guise of a serpent and decieved Eve into eating the apple of the tree of knowledge. Eve believing she was acting in her own greater good disobeyed God and also lead Adam to do the same. Adam and eve being not like the angels and lacking in knowledge were punished by God. But they were not destroyed or dammed. But cast out from the Garden of eden and a curse was placed upon the earth. It went from a natural state of goodness to a state of sin were they will have to toil, suffer and die. But God promised them redemption. Genesis 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

He promised a new Adam and a new Eve who would not be born with the stain of sin. The new Adam being Jesus and the new Eve being his mother Mary. An act at the moment of her conception removed the stain of sin from the blessed mother and Jesus being God himself could never be under the power of sin. Jesus who is both fully God and fully human suffered himself to live subject to his creation. The creator of all things lived life as an ordinary man and even had a profession as a carpenter before he went out to teach and preach the kindom of God and mans true purpose in life.

This true purpose being the beatific vision. Where man will take the place of the fallen angels and see the face of God. But before this can happen he would have to suffer and die as a perfect offering to his father for the infinite offense commited against him. At the same time he provided a perfect model of how one should live their life and a teaching no person of good will can object to.

Now the question on marriage in heaven Jesus answered this himself. Matthew 22:30 "For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven".

And if we are to be made perfect in heaven what use would we have for technology or sports or any such diversions we have here on earth to help past the time. The Blessed are made perfect and like the angels see the face of God. I think Saint Anthony of padua said it best "though the questions are infinite, their is only on answer our lord and savior Jesus christ".

Once you seem him all wonders and questions cease to exist. One will have a perfect knowledge Of God. Not like the knowledge God possesses of himself. No creature could contain that but you will not be lacking in any way or thirst for more. Its hard concept to explain or to even think of only the ones that are there know it.

Remember things like space and time exist only in the material world. So an eternity won't feel like an eternity for a better way of putting it. The feeling the blessed will have at the moment they enter into heaven would be the same for them a million, billion, trillion years from now. The concept of time does not exist there. Its like they will always be in that moment.

[NYKNICKPLAYA]

How about the question....what is nothing?

[stuporman]

How about the question....what is nothing?

The answer..... the absence of everything.

[And100]

How about the question....what is nothing?

RealGM Knicks forum in August?

Chris Smith's NBA scoring average and FG%?

[And100]

I guess the best why to put this.

Is it? I'm trying to be courteous, but what always strikes me is how uncommon common language is this discourse. The reason escapes me.

"God the author of all life the uncaused cause who exsisted always with no begining."

This isn't even a sentence. Why can't we speak plainly in contemporary language?

Created the Angels for his own glory and to show forth his beauty and goodness

In other words, pride.

Satan seeing his own beauty and goodness.

God pride good.
Satan pride bad.

That's dealing from the bottom of the deck.

But cast out from the Garden of eden and a curse was placed upon the earth. It went from a natural state of goodness to a state of sin were they will have to toil, suffer and die.

Wrath.

Now the question on marriage in heaven Jesus answered this himself. Matthew 22:30 "For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven".

Greed.

I think Saint Anthony of padua said it best "though the questions are infinite, their is only on answer our lord and savior Jesus christ".

Again, I have to question how this is putting it best?

Its hard concept to explain or to even think of only the ones that are there know it.

You cannot truly believe what you don't understand. You can only pretend to.

But what you attempt to describe sounds like a perfect time to check out. If there is nothing left to learn or ambition to, what's the point.

[Iron Mantis]

Except it was written by man, manipulated by man and argued over by man with most of the believers in the book not even following it. The whole follow the rules or be damned in eternity thing is fear mongering to control people. It's ironically so unbiblical!

The Bible was "inspired by God", as man was "moved by" God's applied energy, or active force. That's why even though God inspired many different men from all walks of life to pen His thoughts, many whom have never even met each other, it contains an interweaving harmonious theme with scores of corresponding prophecies, none of which have ever failed.

Just some examples of proof of the Bible being divinely inspired are scientific facts that were penned hundreds and in some instances, thousands of years before scientists finally caught up by way of modern discoveries.

The hallmark of divine inspiration is prophecy though. Many many prophecies and their fulfillment to the tee is contained within the Bible.

Prophecies about exactly when the Messiah would appear, exactly how he would live, his activities, where he would be born, be treated, how long his ministry would last before he was killed, exactly how he would be betrayed, and so many other things are throughout the so-called "old testament" were penned hundreds of years before he was even born.

Many prophecies about Empires and kings that would rise, fall, who they would conquered by, and even in one instance, the exact name of a king who would conquer Babylon was penned 200 years before he was even born.

There's so many more prophecies, many even in their fulfillment right NOW, that I cannot possibly name them all right now. I need some sleep lol.

God has the ability to preserve His written word, so any alterations by shady men have been weeded out. The Bible is the most widely circulated book on the earth and has withstood waves and waves of persecution over the centuries after it's being completed.

Those who "believe" in the Bible and don't actually live by its teachings can't truly believe, or they would exercise faith by applying it's teachings.

The "eternal damnation in a fiery hell" is one of many unscriptural doctrines that apostate Christendom stole from philosophies and pagan religions to scare members into their control for monetary gain, political influence and power. Such a teaching is found nowhere in the Bible and true Christians don't subscribe to that extra-biblical idea.

God has judged and will soon execute judgement upon the religions peddling His Word, slaughtering innocent people over the centuries and misrepresenting Him. In fact there is a major prophecy on the horizon of being fulfilled which states that He will maneuver political powers to unite for the purpose of entirely removing false religion from the world scene, under their understanding that they are actually acting in their own interests of bringing about global "peace and security".

There's the circular logic at work.... By putting "inspired by God" and "moved by God" label on it we now have to obey what man says about it because they are the self anointed vessels of what God wants us to do.

The whole Christian theology including messianic prophesy is adopted, borrowed and stolen from other cultures, it's just that Christians don't want to acknowledge it.

You say eternal hell fire isn't scriptural but so many other Christians say it is, so who of you are the anointed ones to tell us which is the right interpretation? If you don't think that it's real what then is the consequence of not submitting to the bible's laws and rules?.... and that is on the condition we know who is telling the truth about it. Heaven forbid we listen to the wrong person... pun intended.

The Bible interprets itself when carefully examined. The idea of eternal burning in hell is simply not found in the Bible when studied carefully.

I appreciate your opinions, however I don't intend to engage you in a fruitless debate. You are entitled to feel how you feel, and I am content with helping the people who take the time to research and prove true to themselves the things I too have spent years thoroughly investigating, researching, and studying.

[Iron Mantis]

And since he created all, he designed it so people would have to glorify him, by rule.

That suggests ego, which is product of pride.



The wisdom and intelligence part cancels out the squabbling or fear about maintaining position or deference. That is an expression of frail, human anxiety.

If his creation was wiser and more intelligent than he, would someone as wise as God defer voluntarily?



God should have faith ... in himself.

He sent us Jesus, but then it appears you are arguing Jesus was corruptible.



There is no "activity" to analyze. Only theory.



Or that never happened. You don't prove a theory with another theory.

Religion, however, replies on it.



Not all of us.

That what you say it true is IMO, a vast component of the problem.

Yes, Jesus had the ability to choose to turn against God, but he did not.

If you don't believe Jesus was were, quickly dismiss it entirely, that's your choice. Many others have taken the time to investigate and found it to be true.

If you quickly dismiss God's activities as a "theory", saying there's nothing to investigate, that again is your prerogative. I can't force you to take the time to do so.

Theories are exactly what you investigate and why you investigate them. To prove or disprove them. Unless any of these activities have been proven, they remain by definition, theory.

And no one has found anything to be true. They've only decided to believe it.

Not once have I offered the fact others have concluded what I have as relevant evidence.

But that's neither here nor there. It took a while, but closer we finally got to self-expression, the more you describe the version of God I don't get - the one who's ego is served by infinitely inferior beings worshipping him. The one that created a throne and one that wouldn't gladly give it up for the greater good, even if a more wise being emerged. One that you describe as prideful and self-interested and anxious about maintaining his position atop the ruling class.

I've given the idea considerable thought and when you ask certain question I inevitably arrive where you just did EVERY time.

"God" is all too human and prone to our familiar foibles, fears and frailities.

Which of course, is an inherent contradiction.

To a person who simply doesn't want to believe, no matter what, no amount of evidence presented whatsoever is sufficient for them.

God could appear to them personally, and they still wouldn't believe; but again that's their choice.

The time is quickly coming where all on earth will be forced realize this is the real deal. Again, whether you believe this or not, is your choice, but you will see in due time.

[And100]

To a person who simply doesn't want to believe, no matter what, no amount of evidence presented whatsoever is sufficient for them.

There is no evidence, just discourse.

And yes, people who don't want to believe and people who want to believe, will reject anything that doesn't reflect their chosen "belief".

But there is a third party - those genuinely interested in what's real whatever that may be.

I haven't accused you of being on one of the latter groups, and I hope you pay me the respect of not assuming I am either.

I'm asking what I think are fair, relevant questions and I'm interested in your answers. I'm genuinely interested not in cited explanations, but earnest, firsthand expressions of original thoughts.

Again, whether you believe this or not, is your choice, but you will see in due time.

I'm safe either way, so that's cool. Until then, I'll keep asking questions. Because I'd genuinely enjoy answers that made sense.

For example, as you explained it, can you understand how someone might take from our answers that God seems subject to all to human doubt and anxiety?

I think that's a fair questions about words I did not put in your mouth.

[Iron Mantis]

To a person who simply doesn't want to believe, no matter what, no amount of evidence presented whatsoever is sufficient for them.

There is no evidence, just discourse.

And yes, people who don't want to believe and people who want to believe, will reject anything that doesn't reflect their chosen "belief".

But there is a third party - those genuinely interested in what's real whatever that may be.

I haven't accused you of being on one of the latter groups, and I hope you pay me the respect of not assuming I am either.

I'm asking what I think are fair, relevant questions and I'm interested in your answers. I'm genuinely interested not in cited explanations, but earnest, firsthand expressions of original thoughts.

Again, whether you believe this or not, is your choice, but you will see in due time.

I'm safe either way, so that's cool. Until then, I'll keep asking questions. Because I'd genuinely enjoy answers that made sense.

For example, as you explained it, can you understand how someone might take from our answers that God seems subject to all to human doubt and anxiety?

I think that's a fair questions about words I did not put in your mouth.

Well perhaps some could come to that conclusion, but i personally don't think that's a typical thought process derived from the explanations I gave.

I think God doing things the way He has actually reflects wisdom and not anxiety.

If I were a creator of a universe, I personally would do things in a way that keeps my creation safe and happy while keeping my interests secure and safe from being disrupted or derailed in any way.

[BKlutch]

Debating theology in a science and philosophy thread is kind of pointless from either side don't you think? Trying to get one side to totally embrace the other's point of view is an exercise in futility.

Just agree to disagree and move on.

We were having an intelligent discussion, and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm satisfied with how it went. Whether or not we embrace one another's view is irrelevant; I explained my belief and he explained his, and all is well.

Others who read this thread may gain something from my explanation, and I'm content with that.

But that's not reality. The thing that makes humans humans is their ability to choose to do whatever they want, right or wrong, agreeable or not. To grow, to fail, to achieve through strife and hardship that usually others (but sometimes themselves) inflict on them.

'Tis true but true peace, unity, and happiness lies within being humble and modest enough to realize we are better off with the direction of our Creator, which save ourselves the misery that ensues from being without Him.

"Wisdom is proved righteous by its works"; in one sense, meaning whether a course is truly wise is proven through the results it yields. In a world solely under God's rule, misery, suffering, pain and strife would't exist.

Trial and error would be limited to whatever our hobbies and creative endeavors bring about; but no misery would ever be the result.

I think Theology is fine in this thread.

I agree. What other thread do we have to place it in ?

I'm not saying the previous post is wrong for this thread. I think that Science and Philosophy or Religion are not mutually compatible, and to lump them all together will cause needless friction. The scientific way revolves around what we can see, experience, feel, examine, and analyze. The religious experience involves faith, and probably cannot be proven or disproven if the try for a thousand more years.

No need to backseat mod. The posts in this thread I'm not interested in, I bypass, and anyone else can do the same.

The religious experience, in my belief at least, revolves around investigating the facts. The fact we can't see God doesn't change the fact we can see clear evidence of His handiwork all throughout the universe.

The more science discovers, and peel away the layers of how things work, the more evident it becomes to many that there is no random accident involved in the workings of the universe: from the origin of life, how birth works, the systems within our body, the marvels of the brain, the coded languages in the DNA molecule and how cells subsequently read and write them, the water cycles, the earth's protective atmosphere, the fine tuning of physical forces in the universe, among other things give many sound reason to believe.

If you don't that's your choice, but many actual scientists do not dismiss the possibility of an intelligent Creator, especially after biology keeps making remarkable discoveries on the microscopic level which are not compatible with random accidents.

Evolution cannot be observed, cannot be reproduced or experimentally tested even in a controlled environment, cannot make accurate predictions(like a scientific theory should) yet many cling to it as "science" but with religious faith and fervor.

It's not backseat modding. It's just that, as I said, this is for Science and Philosophy. We can't discuss those if people of faith only want to proclaim their beliefs. That has nothing to do with the topic. Why not start a religion thread, where those who want to can discuss their faith and share their beliefs?

[be reasonable]

I guess the best why to put this.

Is it? I'm trying to be courteous, but what always strikes me is how uncommon common language is this discourse. The reason escapes me.

"God the author of all life the uncaused cause who exsisted always with no begining."

This isn't even a sentence. Why can't we speak plainly in contemporary language?

Created the Angels for his own glory and to show forth his beauty and goodness

In other words, pride.

Satan seeing his own beauty and goodness.

God pride good.
Satan pride bad.

That's dealing from the bottom of the deck.

But cast out from the Garden of eden and a curse was placed upon the earth. It went from a natural state of goodness to a state of sin were they will have to toil, suffer and die.

Wrath.

Now the question on marriage in heaven Jesus answered this himself. Matthew 22:30 "For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven".

Greed.

I think Saint Anthony of padua said it best "though the questions are infinite, their is only on answer our lord and savior Jesus christ".

Again, I have to question how this is putting it best?

Its hard concept to explain or to even think of only the ones that are there know it.

God being the prime mover that sets everything into motion. He is existence himself. Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM...

God, pride is Good he derives his being from no one he is the Alpha and Omega. The first and last cause.

Satan, pride is bad his beauty and goodness comes from God, his existence is maintained by God. Nothing he has came from his own hands. But freely given to him by God.

Its not called wrath but justice. Man disobeyed God, man got punished.



Luke 10:22
All things are delivered to me by my Father; and no one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and to whom the Son will reveal him.

We have Jesus teachings and what he told us about God in the new testament. You can either accept it on faith or reject it. We all have free will. Certain things are clearly defined and everything else is just speculation and we are free to do that thats how we learn and progress. Socrates always asked why, in the end sadly it got him killed. When you die whether for good or for bad the questions and human ambition end. Human beings are created to know, thats why the questions never seem to end. But the questions end somewhere and that is at vision of God.

[Iron Mantis]

Debating theology in a science and philosophy thread is kind of pointless from either side don't you think? Trying to get one side to totally embrace the other's point of view is an exercise in futility.

Just agree to disagree and move on.

We were having an intelligent discussion, and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm satisfied with how it went. Whether or not we embrace one another's view is irrelevant; I explained my belief and he explained his, and all is well.

Others who read this thread may gain something from my explanation, and I'm content with that.

But that's not reality. The thing that makes humans humans is their ability to choose to do whatever they want, right or wrong, agreeable or not. To grow, to fail, to achieve through strife and hardship that usually others (but sometimes themselves) inflict on them.

'Tis true but true peace, unity, and happiness lies within being humble and modest enough to realize we are better off with the direction of our Creator, which save ourselves the misery that ensues from being without Him.

"Wisdom is proved righteous by its works"; in one sense, meaning whether a course is truly wise is proven through the results it yields. In a world solely under God's rule, misery, suffering, pain and strife would't exist.

Trial and error would be limited to whatever our hobbies and creative endeavors bring about; but no misery would ever be the result.

I think Theology is fine in this thread.

I agree. What other thread do we have to place it in ?

I'm not saying the previous post is wrong for this thread. I think that Science and Philosophy or Religion are not mutually compatible, and to lump them all together will cause needless friction. The scientific way revolves around what we can see, experience, feel, examine, and analyze. The religious experience involves faith, and probably cannot be proven or disproven if the try for a thousand more years.

No need to backseat mod. The posts in this thread I'm not interested in, I bypass, and anyone else can do the same.

The religious experience, in my belief at least, revolves around investigating the facts. The fact we can't see God doesn't change the fact we can see clear evidence of His handiwork all throughout the universe.

The more science discovers, and peel away the layers of how things work, the more evident it becomes to many that there is no random accident involved in the workings of the universe: from the origin of life, how birth works, the systems within our body, the marvels of the brain, the coded languages in the DNA molecule and how cells subsequently read and write them, the water cycles, the earth's protective atmosphere, the fine tuning of physical forces in the universe, among other things give many sound reason to believe.

If you don't that's your choice, but many actual scientists do not dismiss the possibility of an intelligent Creator, especially after biology keeps making remarkable discoveries on the microscopic level which are not compatible with random accidents.

Evolution cannot be observed, cannot be reproduced or experimentally tested even in a controlled environment, cannot make accurate predictions(like a scientific theory should) yet many cling to it as "science" but with religious faith and fervor.

It's not backseat modding. It's just that, as I said, this is for Science and Philosophy. We can't discuss those if people of faith only want to proclaim their beliefs. That has nothing to do with the topic. Why not start a religion thread, where those who want to can discuss their faith and share their beliefs?

There's enough room in this thread for all to have their say, whether religious, philosophical, scientific, or about aliens from Nibiru .

The mods have no complaints, so why are you crying?

[BKlutch]

We were having an intelligent discussion, and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm satisfied with how it went. Whether or not we embrace one another's view is irrelevant; I explained my belief and he explained his, and all is well.

Others who read this thread may gain something from my explanation, and I'm content with that.


'Tis true but true peace, unity, and happiness lies within being humble and modest enough to realize we are better off with the direction of our Creator, which save ourselves the misery that ensues from being without Him.

"Wisdom is proved righteous by its works"; in one sense, meaning whether a course is truly wise is proven through the results it yields. In a world solely under God's rule, misery, suffering, pain and strife would't exist.

Trial and error would be limited to whatever our hobbies and creative endeavors bring about; but no misery would ever be the result.


I agree. What other thread do we have to place it in ?


No need to backseat mod. The posts in this thread I'm not interested in, I bypass, and anyone else can do the same.

The religious experience, in my belief at least, revolves around investigating the facts. The fact we can't see God doesn't change the fact we can see clear evidence of His handiwork all throughout the universe.

The more science discovers, and peel away the layers of how things work, the more evident it becomes to many that there is no random accident involved in the workings of the universe: from the origin of life, how birth works, the systems within our body, the marvels of the brain, the coded languages in the DNA molecule and how cells subsequently read and write them, the water cycles, the earth's protective atmosphere, the fine tuning of physical forces in the universe, among other things give many sound reason to believe.

If you don't that's your choice, but many actual scientists do not dismiss the possibility of an intelligent Creator, especially after biology keeps making remarkable discoveries on the microscopic level which are not compatible with random accidents.

Evolution cannot be observed, cannot be reproduced or experimentally tested even in a controlled environment, cannot make accurate predictions(like a scientific theory should) yet many cling to it as "science" but with religious faith and fervor.

It's not backseat modding. It's just that, as I said, this is for Science and Philosophy. We can't discuss those if people of faith only want to proclaim their beliefs. That has nothing to do with the topic. Why not start a religion thread, where those who want to can discuss their faith and share their beliefs?

There's enough room in this thread for all to have their say, whether religious, philosophical, scientific, or about aliens from Nibiru .

The mods have no complaints, so why are you crying?

Nasty for such a religious guy to say it's crying when I say that Religion has no place in a discussion of science. If you really can't understand that, no need to discuss with you. You can coopt the the science thread, if you like. I wouldn't have expected that those with a skeptical or scientific approach would most show kindness and humility.

[Iron Mantis]

It's not backseat modding. It's just that, as I said, this is for Science and Philosophy. We can't discuss those if people of faith only want to proclaim their beliefs. That has nothing to do with the topic. Why not start a religion thread, where those who want to can discuss their faith and share their beliefs?

There's enough room in this thread for all to have their say, whether religious, philosophical, scientific, or about aliens from Nibiru .

The mods have no complaints, so why are you crying?

Nasty for such a religious guy to say it's crying when I say that Religion has no place in a discussion of science. If you really can't understand that, no need to discuss with you. You can coopt the the science thread, if you like. I wouldn't have expected that those with a skeptical or scientific approach would most show kindness and humility.

"Nasty"? Relax it's not that serious.

And saying it has no place, well that's your opinion.

I believe the Bible and science complement each other in many ways, Judeo-Christian beliefs have influenced varying philosophies, and ancient philosophies have also influenced many religions.

[BKlutch]

There's enough room in this thread for all to have their say, whether religious, philosophical, scientific, or about aliens from Nibiru .

The mods have no complaints, so why are you crying?

Nasty for such a religious guy to say it's crying when I say that Religion has no place in a discussion of science. If you really can't understand that, no need to discuss with you. You can coopt the the science thread, if you like. I wouldn't have expected that those with a skeptical or scientific approach would most show kindness and humility.

"Nasty"? Relax it's not that serious.

And saying it has no place, well that's your opinion.

I believe the Bible and science complement each other in many ways, Judeo-Christian beliefs have influenced varying philosophies, and ancient philosophies have also influenced many religions.

You've obviously put in a lot of time reading and understanding the Bible. Scientists put in, usually, the better part of a decade and around 10,000 hours before they can produce the kind of work they want. It's a matter of different approaches. Scientists may discuss religion often, because many are religious. But they have mutually exclusive approaches, and it's hard to have a meaningful discussion when each doesn't have the background of the other. So enjoy your discussion here, and I hope everybody manages to learn something. I'm going back to trying to understand the triangle.

[Iron Mantis]

Nasty for such a religious guy to say it's crying when I say that Religion has no place in a discussion of science. If you really can't understand that, no need to discuss with you. You can coopt the the science thread, if you like. I wouldn't have expected that those with a skeptical or scientific approach would most show kindness and humility.

"Nasty"? Relax it's not that serious.

And saying it has no place, well that's your opinion.

I believe the Bible and science complement each other in many ways, Judeo-Christian beliefs have influenced varying philosophies, and ancient philosophies have also influenced many religions.

You've obviously put in a lot of time reading and understanding the Bible. Scientists put in, usually, the better part of a decade and around 10,000 hours before they can produce the kind of work they want. It's a matter of different approaches. Scientists may discuss religion often, because many are religious. But they have mutually exclusive approaches, and it's hard to have a meaningful discussion when each doesn't have the background of the other. So enjoy your discussion here, and I hope everybody manages to learn something. I'm going back to trying to understand the triangle.

you are a scholar and a gentleman