State of the Union. Team Canada Basketball. (FIBA Americas Aug.31-Sep.15)

frumble · Post #2721 » by **frumble** » Sat Sep 5, 2015 3:18 am

Plus/minus for the PR game:

Stauskas +29
Olynyk +22
Bennett +19
Wiggins +17
Scrubb +16
Sacre +9
Joseph +5
Doornekamp +4
Ejim 0
Heslip -5
Nicholson -16

frumble · Post #2722 » by **frumble** » Sat Sep 5, 2015 3:24 am

C_Money wrote:My friend just told me Mexico gets to choose who they play in the next round? WTF is that? Doesn't make any sense.

As host, Mexico gets to pick who they play first in the second stage. As others have explained, the second stage is not a knockout stage, it is just a continuation of the round robin. Mexico still has to play Canada, Argentina, Venezuela, and Puerto Rico, they just get to pick which one they face first.

The best way to think of the tournament is as a full round robin, except that they drop the two worst teams halfway through (Cuba and Brazil). And they drop the results against the two worst teams. So we have a round robin with 8 teams. The standings now are:

Mex 3-0
Arg 3-0
Can 2-1
DR 2-1
Pan 1-2
Ven 1-2
PR 0-3
Urg 0-3

mojo13 · Post #2723 » by **mojo13** » Sat Sep 5, 2015 3:54 am

aligator wrote:Scrubb is a far superior player to Hanlan. This should be obvious. The immaturity of this board drives one to other more informative sites.

Yes! Please tell me these more informative sites. PM me if need be. Please.

mojo13 · Post #2724 » by **mojo13** » Sat Sep 5, 2015 4:01 am

frumble wrote:Plus/minus for the PR game:

Stauskas +29
Olynyk +22
Bennett +19
Wiggins +17
Scrubb +16
Sacre +9
Joseph +5
Doornekamp +4
Ejim 0
Heslip -5
Nicholson -16

That is a very glaring minus for Nicholson. He has easily been the biggest disappointment so far. Are his strengths just not needed here and his weakness all that more obvious? You can really see the criticism he gets from the Magic fans. Just cant defend or rebound at an NBA level. My guess is he will be out of the NBA soon but that could be a good thing for team Canada if he ends up in a top Euro league team.

frumble · Post #2725 » by **frumble** » Sat Sep 5, 2015 4:14 am

mojo13 wrote:
aligator wrote:Scrubb is a far superior player to Hanlan. This should be obvious. The immaturity of this board drives one to other more informative sites.

Yes! Please tell me these more informative sites. PM me if need be. Please.

Yes, please let me know as well. Thanks.

SharoneWright · Post #2726 » by **SharoneWright** » Sat Sep 5, 2015 4:30 am

frumble wrote:
mojo13 wrote:
aligator wrote:Scrubb is a far superior player to Hanlan. This should be obvious. The immaturity of this board drives one to other more informative sites.

Yes! Please tell me these more informative sites. PM me if need be. Please.

Yes, please let me know as well. Thanks.

http://www.nba.com/jazz/roster

http://www.aekbc.gr

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/olivier-hanlan
http://www.nbadraft.net/players/philip-scrubb

DreamTeam09 · Post #2727 » by **DreamTeam09** » Sat Sep 5, 2015 5:01 am

Hanlan was the man at his D1 school

Scrubb was the man at his CIS school

Hanlan got drafted

Scrubb went undrafted

Only smart and triano think scrubb is better than hanlan

Harold_and_Kumar · Post #2728 » by **Harold_and_Kumar** » Sat Sep 5, 2015 5:39 am

DreamTeam09 wrote:Hanlan was the man at his D1 school

Scrubb was the man at his CIS school

Hanlan got drafted

Scrubb went undrafted

Only smart and triano think scrubb is better than hanlan

That's not necessarily true. Exposure plays a big role and NBA execs weren't gonna take the risk of drafting a guy out of CIS. Furthermore I'm pretty sure Scrubb had many D1 offers that he turned down to stay in Ottawa.

Here's a scenario for you. Hanlan could be in the D-League by the time the next international event rolls around and Scrubb could be ripping it up in Greece and Eurobasket, and the argument of 'who plays in a better league' would be reversed. Ultimately that's the problem with appealing to authority without context. Where someone got drafted isn't the only decisive factor in rating players (hence why drafting is a bit of a crapshoot even in the first round).

While Hanlan very well could be better than Scrubb it's not for the reasons you mentioned; it's simply because he's a better player.

Mattd97 · Post #2729 » by **Mattd97** » Sat Sep 5, 2015 5:47 am

DreamTeam09 wrote:Hanlan was the man at his D1 school

Scrubb was the man at his CIS school

Hanlan got drafted

Scrubb went undrafted

Only smart and triano think scrubb is better than hanlan

I think mojo and frumble both prefer hanlan to scrubb from what I've read from them, they just also don't love the usual tone of this board. I mean both had the opportunity for ncaa coaches and only one was taken, both had opportunities to be drafted and only one was. If Dave smart weren't involved scrubb wouldn't be on these teams

mojo13 · Post #2730 » by **mojo13** » Sat Sep 5, 2015 6:13 am

Mattd97 wrote:
DreamTeam09 wrote:Hanlan was the man at his D1 school

Scrubb was the man at his CIS school

Hanlan got drafted

Scrubb went undrafted

Only smart and triano think scrubb is better than hanlan

I think mojo and frumble both prefer hanlan to scrubb from what I've read from them, they just also don't love the usual tone of this board. I mean both had the opportunity for ncaa coaches and only one was taken, both had opportunities to be drafted and only one was. If Dave smart weren't involved scrubb wouldn't be on these teams

Yes. I was asking that if anyone knows of better sites to talk Team Canada bball please let me know. I love the topic and volume of posts here but the craziness of 90 percent of the posters here is bringing me down. I enjoy contrary viewpoints as long as there is reason involved. Here, reason is often excluded from the conversation. Hanlan v Scrubb was a valid discussion, now that Scrubb was backed and seems to be playing fairly well, why dwell on Hanlan...or Murray for that matter? Why bother with the whole Smart nepotism thing? If it is a close choice, Coaches are going to go with the the low risk option they know best. It seems people have quieted down about the Heslip/Triano' connection now that people see that Heslip is the Northern Demi-God of 3 pointers.

Arnt there more interesting topics right now? Less "what ifs" and more "what is's".

WhatYaWant · Post #2731 » by **WhatYaWant** » Sat Sep 5, 2015 8:44 am

DreamTeam09 wrote:Hanlan was the man at his D1 school

Scrubb was the man at his CIS school

Hanlan got drafted

Scrubb went undrafted

Only smart and triano think scrubb is better than hanlan

u realize carelton was a better team than BC no.?

Samurai_Raps · Post #2732 » by **Samurai_Raps** » Sat Sep 5, 2015 12:28 pm

[tweet]https://twitter.com/smithraps/status/640019670943182848[/tweet]

thunderforce · Post #2733 » by **thunderforce** » Sat Sep 5, 2015 2:04 pm

Samurai_Raps wrote:[tweet]https://twitter.com/smithraps/status/640019670943182848[/tweet]

Again 4 games in a row . does everyone else play 4 days in a row too ?

frumble · Post #2734 » by **frumble** » Sat Sep 5, 2015 2:16 pm

thunderforce wrote:Again 4 games in a row . does everyone else play 4 days in a row too ?

Yes.

DrCoach · Post #2735 » by **DrCoach** » Sat Sep 5, 2015 2:23 pm

WhatYaWant wrote:
DreamTeam09 wrote:Hanlan was the man at his D1 school

Scrubb was the man at his CIS school

Hanlan got drafted

Scrubb went undrafted

Only smart and triano think scrubb is better than hanlan

u realize carelton was a better team than BC no.?

That played CIs teams , no?

slothrop8 · Post #2736 » by **slothrop8** » Sat Sep 5, 2015 2:44 pm

So the next two games are against Panama and Uruguay. Win those 2 and a chance to play in semi-final for auto-qualification is pretty much guaranteed. It would take some crazy results elsewhere in the draw to keep Canada out even if they somehow lost their last 2. So, what should we be looking for against Panama and Uruguay. I only saw about 10 mins of Uruguay - and have not seen Panama. Who can give us a little run down of what to expect from those squads?

WhatYaWant · Post #2737 » by **WhatYaWant** » Sat Sep 5, 2015 3:33 pm

DrCoach wrote:
WhatYaWant wrote:
DreamTeam09 wrote:Hanlan was the man at his D1 school

Scrubb was the man at his CIS school

Hanlan got drafted

Scrubb went undrafted

Only smart and triano think scrubb is better than hanlan

u realize carelton was a better team than BC no.?

That played CIs teams , no?

check his record vs ncaa teams and get back to me

thunderforce · Post #2738 » by **thunderforce** » Sat Sep 5, 2015 3:44 pm

frumble wrote:
thunderforce wrote:Again 4 games in a row . does everyone else play 4 days in a row too ?

Yes.

Good as long as it is fair , by the end of this thing I think the teams that rely on one or two great older players might not have much left in the tank . That always used to kill us before when we had 1 or 2 nba players but not anymore thanks to VC and Nash .

Reg00 · Post #2739 » by **Reg00** » Sat Sep 5, 2015 3:56 pm

Scrubb can play. He was the PG when they went on their second half blitz. Just watch the games people! It's obvious he belongs on the team and can play against international competition. Just because one player has NCAA experience means one is automatically better. Lot's of good players don't have NCAA experience.

frumble · Post #2740 » by **frumble** » Sat Sep 5, 2015 4:50 pm

Reg00 wrote:Scrubb can play. He was the PG when they went on their second half blitz. Just watch the games people! It's obvious he belongs on the team and can play against international competition. Just because one player has NCAA experience means one is automatically better. Lot's of good players don't have NCAA experience.

I don't think people are saying Hanlan is better than Scrubb b/c he has NCAA experience. I think some people, including me, are saying that in evaluating how good a player is you need to take into account quality of competition. And the quality of competition is lower in the CIS than it is in the NCAA.

One way to see this is to look at guys who have played both. E.g., Simon Farine averaged 1.4 PPG for Wisconsin-Green Bay. He then transferred to Dalhousie and dominated. He averaged 16, 19, 22, and 19 PPG in his 4 seasons, was multiple all conference, and was all CIS.

Similarly, Henry Bekkering struggled for Eastern Washington, but then lit it up at U of Calgary.

Dejan Kravic transferred in the other direction. He averaged 16 PPG and 10 RPG a game for York, but managed only 9/5, and then 7/5, in his two seasons at Texas Tech.

Bol Kong was a huge disappointment at X, but still did a lot better there than he did at Gonzaga.

And going way back, Pasha Bains averaged only about 5 PPG in two seasons at Clemson, then led the CIS in scoring twice (and set the SFU scoring record) before finishing his college career with a great year at UBC.

(These are the only CIS/NCAA examples that come to my mind. If people have others, please share).

Maybe Scrubb is an exception. Maybe he would have put up 20 a game in the ACC. But history tells me that, all else equal, the level of competition is higher in the NCAA, and to take CIS performance and stats with a grain of salt.

Looking at other data, both Hanlan and Scrubb were poor in summer league.

And going back to their previous stints for Canada, Hanlan performed better.

All that being said, my primary beef isn't that Triano/Smart picked Scrubb over Hanlan, but that 1) they took a 6th big instead of a 5th guard, and that 2) they didn't give Hanlan much of a shot at Tuto Marchand. It seems they had already made up their minds.