State of the Union. Team Canada Basketball. (FIBA Americas Aug.31-Sep.15)

[Dr Comeback]

I was skeptical of Scrubb and CIS level of competition, but watching them play at summer league and looking at his CIS numbers, I completely understood why he took Scrubb.

Scrubb is a dead eye 3 point shooter, 48% career 3 point shooter in the CIS and athletically they are similar so in a back up supplementary role I would favor Scrubb.

[Mike_999]

My friend just told me Mexico gets to choose who they play in the next round? WTF is that? Doesn't make any sense.

As host, Mexico gets to pick who they play first in the second stage.

That's not correct. I heard Rautins say that but he is wrong. (He has also said the tournament is fixed for Mexico to advance...)

The second round schedule is pre-determined based on where the teams finish in the previous round. For example, by finishing first, Mexico and Argentina play the respective teams from the other division in the reverse order that they finished. (Hence Mexico and Argentina play each other last, Mexico plays Canada second last, etc.)

However, Mexico does decide WHEN during the day their matches take place.

[frumble]

My friend just told me Mexico gets to choose who they play in the next round? WTF is that? Doesn't make any sense.

As host, Mexico gets to pick who they play first in the second stage.

That's not correct. I heard Rautins say that but he is wrong. (He has also said the tournament is fixed for Mexico to advance...)

The second round schedule is pre-determined based on where the teams finish in the previous round. For example, by finishing first, Mexico and Argentina play the respective teams from the other division in the reverse order that they finished. (Hence Mexico and Argentina play each other last, Mexico plays Canada second last, etc.)

However, Mexico does decide WHEN during the day their matches take place.

You are right; thanks for the correction.

[Reg00]

Scrubb can play. He was the PG when they went on their second half blitz. Just watch the games people! It's obvious he belongs on the team and can play against international competition. Just because one player has NCAA experience means one is automatically better. Lot's of good players don't have NCAA experience.

I don't think people are saying Hanlan is better than Scrubb b/c he has NCAA experience. I think some people, including me, are saying that in evaluating how good a player is you need to take into account quality of competition. And the quality of competition is lower in the CIS than it is in the NCAA.

One way to see this is to look at guys who have played both. E.g., Simon Farine averaged 1.4 PPG for Wisconsin-Green Bay. He then transferred to Dalhousie and dominated. He averaged 16, 19, 22, and 19 PPG in his 4 seasons, was multiple all conference, and was all CIS.

Similarly, Henry Bekkering struggled for Eastern Washington, but then lit it up at U of Calgary.

Dejan Kravic transferred in the other direction. He averaged 16 PPG and 10 RPG a game for York, but managed only 9/5, and then 7/5, in his two seasons at Texas Tech.

Bol Kong was a huge disappointment at X, but still did a lot better there than he did at Gonzaga.

And going way back, Pasha Bains averaged only about 5 PPG in two seasons at Clemson, then led the CIS in scoring twice (and set the SFU scoring record) before finishing his college career with a great year at UBC.

(These are the only CIS/NCAA examples that come to my mind. If people have others, please share).


Maybe Scrubb is an exception. Maybe he would have put up 20 a game in the ACC. But history tells me that, all else equal, the level of competition is higher in the NCAA, and to take CIS performance and stats with a grain of salt.

Looking at other data, both Hanlan and Scrubb were poor in summer league.

And going back to their previous stints for Canada, Hanlan performed better.


All that being said, my primary beef isn't that Triano/Smart picked Scrubb over Hanlan, but that 1) they took a 6th big instead of a 5th guard, and that 2) they didn't give Hanlan much of a shot at Tuto Marchand. It seems they had already made up their minds.

I just think you go with the guy that you feel good about at the time, and sorta forget past statistics. I think it would be a pretty bad decision making process if "the historical record of players picked in NCAA vs CIS" was the template. If a guy can play, does it matter where he's from? And also, since this is all about building a national basketball identity and program, doesn't it mean mroe for us if a CIS guy can play competitively at this level?

But all that aside, I do agree that they needed another guard more than another SF. Isn't it 7 vs 4 though?

[aligator]

How many of u know that Carleton defeated Wisconsin in a pre season game the year the Badgers went to the final four?

[Pooh_Jeter]

As frumble has pointed out multiple times, it wasn't Scrubb VS Hanlan, it was Hanlan VS a 6th big. In my mind Doornekamp is basically a 7th big. Sacre doesn't have much of a role on his team, but at least his size could be valuable in certain situations. I don't see how Ejim can't replace everything Doornekamp does and more.

Last game was an illustration of how weak the guard depth is. Imagine if CoJo was injured and not sitting because of foul trouble. You would be down to Scrubb starting and Stauskas/Heslip playing back-up PG.

It was an awful use of the Tuto Marchand cup to not give Hanlan a shot and let Ejim get some burn as a back-up SF.

[DrCoach]

u realize carelton was a better team than BC no.?

That played CIs teams , no?

check his record vs ncaa teams and get back to me

You mean in meaningless Pre Pre season games?

[JN]

Hanlan was the man at his D1 school

Scrubb was the man at his CIS school

Boston College was the 106th best team in the NCAA last year per KenPom. That is about where I would see Carleton doing (or slightly better)

[JN]

You mean in meaningless Pre Pre season games?

I went to watch Syracuse play Carleton 2 summers ago in Ottawa, I can tell you Syracuse was giving it there all and stuck to a small rotation. And that game went into over OT.

Of course Carleton does have the advantage of practicing during the summer more than an NCAA school.

They lost at Syracuse last November in an exhibition -- after leading by nine at the half.

It's hard to analyze where Carleton would be in the NCAA paradigm, but if you follow the NCAA you would realize there are wide range of levels of teams playing. Boston College has been one of the worst Power 6/5 teams in the country for a number of years now -- they were competitive at the end of their Big East run and the first few years in the ACC... that is about it.

[JN]

How many of u know that Carleton defeated Wisconsin in a pre season game the year the Badgers went to the final four?

They blew them out. But I suspect in this case, more than Syracuse, that coach Ryan was probably more willing to try things (sets, deeper players). while Boeheim just wanted to win.

But your point is still valid. It does show they are a quality team. I think once the season starts in November, and if the game counted Wisconsin is better. But Wisconsin would also be favoured by about 18 points on a neutral floor against a bad Boston College team.

[Gday_eh]

Just happened upon this message board the other day, now on my favourites.

For those interested Mark "Junkie" Wacyk gives a bit of a review / preview of the FIBA America's tournament in his blog.

http://canhoops.blog.com/

IMHO, Scrubb has the temperament to play international ball and has always showed up In critical games.

He also had a much better preparation leading up to the FIBA Tournament (in practices, as well as games).

[Reg00]

As frumble has pointed out multiple times, it wasn't Scrubb VS Hanlan, it was Hanlan VS a 6th big. In my mind Doornekamp is basically a 7th big. Sacre doesn't have much of a role on his team, but at least his size could be valuable in certain situations. I don't see how Ejim can't replace everything Doornekamp does and more.

Last game was an illustration of how weak the guard depth is. Imagine if CoJo was injured and not sitting because of foul trouble. You would be down to Scrubb starting and Stauskas/Heslip playing back-up PG.

It was an awful use of the Tuto Marchand cup to not give Hanlan a shot and let Ejim get some burn as a back-up SF.

Just go back a few pages and read some comments about Scrubb. I think its safe to say that there is a lot questions whether he belongs on the team.

[Samurai_Raps]

lets hope Canada has qualified by that last game against DR (3pm). Because the turnaround from the Mexico game the night before (9pm) is gonna be brutal.

[DrCoach]

You mean in meaningless Pre Pre season games?

I went to watch Syracuse play Carleton 2 summers ago in Ottawa, I can tell you Syracuse was giving it there all and stuck to a small rotation. And that game went into over OT.

Of course Carleton does have the advantage of practicing during the summer more than an NCAA school.

They lost at Syracuse last November in an exhibition -- after leading by nine at the half.

It's hard to analyze where Carleton would be in the NCAA paradigm, but if you follow the NCAA you would realize there are wide range of levels of teams playing. Boston College has been one of the worst Power 6/5 teams in the country for a number of years now -- they were competitive at the end of their Big East run and the first few years in the ACC... that is about it.

NCAA teams also play almost twice as many games as CIS. , how many games do CIS teams play? 17-20?

Much easier to put up good numbers with lesser competition, less travel and less games

[Reg00]

You mean in meaningless Pre Pre season games?

I went to watch Syracuse play Carleton 2 summers ago in Ottawa, I can tell you Syracuse was giving it there all and stuck to a small rotation. And that game went into over OT.

Of course Carleton does have the advantage of practicing during the summer more than an NCAA school.

They lost at Syracuse last November in an exhibition -- after leading by nine at the half.

It's hard to analyze where Carleton would be in the NCAA paradigm, but if you follow the NCAA you would realize there are wide range of levels of teams playing. Boston College has been one of the worst Power 6/5 teams in the country for a number of years now -- they were competitive at the end of their Big East run and the first few years in the ACC... that is about it.

NCAA teams also play almost twice as many games as CIS. , how many games do CIS teams play? 17-20?

Much easier to put up good numbers with lesser competition, less travel and less games

So many excuses. It's so easy to devalue Canadian players for some people its crazy.

[slothrop8]

They played Syracuse tight in both '13 and '14 - and those were solid Syracuse teams. The '13-'14 team especially won 28 games and was a #3 seed in the tournament. So Carleton playing them tight - even in the offseason for 'Cuse -speaks to the quality of Carleton's team. It's worth noting that Syracuse played a number of other Canadian schools in '13 and devastated them all - so that speaks a bit to the level of comp Scrubb played against. It's also worth noting that Scrubb was horrendous in both games against Syracuse shooting a combined 8-29 for 27.5% including 3-21 from 3 pt range. With even competent Scrubb games Carleton may have won both games.

Anyway, Scrubb is on the team doing a decent job as the back up PG. He looks for his own offense a little more than he should with the other players around him - I'd like to see him focus more on running the offense and getting his points off spot ups and driving lanes that open up when the ball comes back to him. However, he's been making some 3s and being aggressive. I though he got exposed badly on D vs Argentina - but he's been a little better since then. He'll need to be sound on that end the rest of the way.

[DrCoach]

I went to watch Syracuse play Carleton 2 summers ago in Ottawa, I can tell you Syracuse was giving it there all and stuck to a small rotation. And that game went into over OT.

Of course Carleton does have the advantage of practicing during the summer more than an NCAA school.

They lost at Syracuse last November in an exhibition -- after leading by nine at the half.

It's hard to analyze where Carleton would be in the NCAA paradigm, but if you follow the NCAA you would realize there are wide range of levels of teams playing. Boston College has been one of the worst Power 6/5 teams in the country for a number of years now -- they were competitive at the end of their Big East run and the first few years in the ACC... that is about it.

NCAA teams also play almost twice as many games as CIS. , how many games do CIS teams play? 17-20?

Much easier to put up good numbers with lesser competition, less travel and less games

So many excuses. It's so easy to devalue Canadian players for some people its crazy.

Excuses, he onus is on you, putting up big numbers in a lesser league and non meaningful games is fine.

Any decent D1 player would do that in the CIS, that's the point

[jonny three time]

You can try to boil it down to CIS vs NCAA, but I think it's style of play. Hanlan is a slasher who isn't known for his vision. Scrubb is more of a cerebral player who passes more and probably has a better outside shot. So this is the classic athletic slashing scoring PG vs true PG with better outside shooting. Is this the first time you guys have seen a coach take the game manager over the shoot first guard with a questionable shot? Especially on a team with scoring bigs that need guards to create for them.

As for NCAA vs CIS. I've seen Doornekamp play better than superior athletes in these competitions for years now, guys who took the NCAA route while he took CIS. It can happen. So why be so against it? Why be against guys who are products of a Canadian institution in favor of guys who took the American route? Are you that eager to dismiss someone for choosing to stay in Canada?

There's been countless threads on here about Americans or Canadian sports media dismissing basketball in Canada. Downplaying the fans, the caliber of players, the infrastructure. Our fans demanding respect. Yet how many of you who ask for that respect are beings jag offs right now and doing the same thing.

Scrubb has played great and showed himself to be a smart and versatile offensive player. If he can improve his defense he has a good future ahead of him. Hopefully his success leads to more future players who have NCAA options, but aren't future NBA lottery picks, choose to stay in Canada and improve here.

[Syd-TK3]

So when is the next game?

[TheFutureMM]

So when is the next game?

Today at 7PM.