Discuss Ernie Grunfeld's GM skills here (Part 2)

[AFM]

That friend is misinformed. I talked with people -- more than one -- in the front office at the time. There was never even a suggestion that anyone had reservations about picking Vesely, but they were being overruled by someone higher up. They were excited about picking him. All of them. And they were all wrong.

(So far).
Some things take time. You would be a horrible bonzai tree owner.

[AFM]

That friend is misinformed. I talked with people -- more than one -- in the front office at the time. There was never even a suggestion that anyone had reservations about picking Vesely, but they were being overruled by someone higher up. They were excited about picking him. All of them. And they were all wrong.

Double post. I swear this site is hosted by geocities running on a toaster oven.

[pineappleheadindc]

That friend is misinformed. I talked with people -- more than one -- in the front office at the time. There was never even a suggestion that anyone had reservations about picking Vesely, but they were being overruled by someone higher up. They were excited about picking him. All of them. And they were all wrong.

Double post. I swear this site is hosted by geocities running on a toaster oven.

User error.

Garbage in, garbage out.

[TheSecretWeapon]

That friend is misinformed. I talked with people -- more than one -- in the front office at the time. There was never even a suggestion that anyone had reservations about picking Vesely, but they were being overruled by someone higher up. They were excited about picking him. All of them. And they were all wrong.

Well everyone except Flip apparently.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2015/06/09/flip-saunders-says-the-wizards-considered-drafting-klay-thompson-over-jan-vesely-in-2011/

I will bring up that EG seems responsible for the pick though to my friend.

Note the date on that article -- June 9, 2015. Here's an article from 2011. Here's what Flip said back in 2011:

“We think Jan can play,” Coach Flip Saunders said after the draft. “We think he can come in right away, and he can be a guy that can be a rotation guy and can play for us. He’s got a high motor. Maybe the greatest skill that he has — outside of kissing — is probably how hard he plays. He plays unbelievably hard.”

They considered Klay Thompson like they considered a lot of players. As a group, the front office agreed on Vesely.

[nate33]

That friend is misinformed. I talked with people -- more than one -- in the front office at the time. There was never even a suggestion that anyone had reservations about picking Vesely, but they were being overruled by someone higher up. They were excited about picking him. All of them. And they were all wrong.

Well everyone except Flip apparently.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2015/06/09/flip-saunders-says-the-wizards-considered-drafting-klay-thompson-over-jan-vesely-in-2011/

I will bring up that EG seems responsible for the pick though to my friend.

Wow. If they would have taken Thompson, they probably would have finished with a slightly better record and would have gone into the 2012 draft with the #5 or #6 pick instead of the #3. With Beal off the board, it would have been a choice between Barnes and Drummond. Imagine if they had chosen Drummond. There would have been no need for the Okariza trade so they instead would have eaten Rashard's buyout. That year, they would have rolled with:

Wall
Thompson
Webster (his best year)
Booker
Nene/Drummond

In the following season, they would have had max cap room and the 2013 pick (probably late lotto). How about Giannis Antetokounmpo and Paul Millsap?

Wall
Thompson
GreekFreak/Webster
Millsap/Booker
Drummond/Nene

[closg00]

That friend is misinformed. I talked with people -- more than one -- in the front office at the time. There was never even a suggestion that anyone had reservations about picking Vesely, but they were being overruled by someone higher up. They were excited about picking him. All of them. And they were all wrong.

Well everyone except Flip apparently.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2015/06/09/flip-saunders-says-the-wizards-considered-drafting-klay-thompson-over-jan-vesely-in-2011/

I will bring up that EG seems responsible for the pick though to my friend.

Here is clip from the Post article

The decision to take Vesely was practically unanimous within the basketball operations side of the organization, with the Wizards enamored with the freakishly athletic 6-foot-11 forward who runs the floor and attacks the rim as if ignited by a fuse. Vesely also has the charisma and confidence to respond to a question about being called the “European Blake Griffin” by calling the Los Angeles Clippers’ all-star and rookie of the year “the American Jan Vesely.”

“We think Jan can play,” Coach Flip Saunders said after the draft. “We think he can come in right away, and he can be a guy that can be a rotation guy and can play for us. He’s got a high motor. Maybe the greatest skill that he has — outside of kissing — is probably how hard he plays. He plays unbelievably hard.”

"Euro Blake Griffin"

Ironic, the guy with the HIgh Motor that they should have drafted was Portis (not knocking KO)

[TheSecretWeapon]

Also this from BulletsForever:

Vesely was on their radar for a long time: During the press conference, Flip Saunders said the Wizards identified Vesely "a few years ago" as a guy they wanted. Grunfeld elaborated on that, saying the Wizards had followed him for "three years, at least." He added that they "intensified that process" the last couple years, when Vesely was potentially draft-eligible. He even said that they would have considered taking him last year had he stayed in the draft and had the Wizards not won the lottery.

"Last year, we [originally] had the fifth or sixth pick, and he was one of the guys in our wheelhouse as we were really looking at."

Grunfeld himself said he saw him play two or three times in person this year, and was also scouting him at the Euroleague Final Four last year.

AND

On how high Vesely was on their board: Not figuring to get much of an answer, I nevertheless asked Grunfeld which players they rated high on their draft board and where Vesely fit in on that list. I was surprised to get a fairly candid response from Grunfeld.

"Every draft, you have groupings, and he was definitely in that top grouping. We didn't know what position it was (ed. note: translation: we know, but we're not going to tell you), but the three European players (ed. note: Enes Kanter, Jonas Valanciunas and Vesely) were in there along with [Derrick] Williams and [Kyrie] Irving and one or two other players. Tristan Thompson -- nobody thought he'd go 4 -- but he was in that grouping too."

So essentially, the Wizards' top tier was the top six players in the draft. That's why Grunfeld said he was never worried about Vesely going higher than 6.

"You're concerned, but you have to be prepared," he said. "We knew our list, we knew who we wanted and we felt good that we had six players up on the board. We knew we'd get one of those six. So it just depended on what position, but it worked out well for us and for Jan. He comes to a team he likes, number one, and has a player like a John [Wall] that can make the game easier for him."

In that same article there these gems from Grunfeld on Singleton and Biyombo:

On Chris Singleton: Unsurprisingly, Grunfeld said the Wizards had Chris Singleton rated higher than he went.

"After the first seven or eight, he was in the next group of players. He could have gone 8 or 9 to some teams," Grunfeld said. "I think Charlotte really liked him at 9, but then they made the trade for Biyombo."

Speaking of Biyombo: Not that it matters, but in case there was any doubt, the Wizards never seriously considered him.

"We saw him overseas, but we didn't go to his workout," Grunfeld said, before pausing for the right words. "We were looking for different types of players right now."

[montestewart]

That friend is misinformed. I talked with people -- more than one -- in the front office at the time. There was never even a suggestion that anyone had reservations about picking Vesely, but they were being overruled by someone higher up. They were excited about picking him. All of them. And they were all wrong.

Well everyone except Flip apparently.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2015/06/09/flip-saunders-says-the-wizards-considered-drafting-klay-thompson-over-jan-vesely-in-2011/

I will bring up that EG seems responsible for the pick though to my friend.

Note the date on that article -- June 9, 2015. Here's an article from 2011. Here's what Flip said back in 2011:

“We think Jan can play,” Coach Flip Saunders said after the draft. “We think he can come in right away, and he can be a guy that can be a rotation guy and can play for us. He’s got a high motor. Maybe the greatest skill that he has — outside of kissing — is probably how hard he plays. He plays unbelievably hard.”

They considered Klay Thompson like they considered a lot of players. As a group, the front office agreed on Vesely.

It does have the sound of "I'm not as stupid as that pick might imply," and I've seen similar stories involving other GMs and coaches years after a draft mentioning their interest in a player who proved better than his draft position. I think there was one recently on Real GM Basketball News about Giannis Antetokounmpo (I forget which team), and I'll bet there have been similar stories on Kawhi Leonard and Kenneth Faried. Most teams are at least looking at such players, so it's not really a lie. It's all in the presentation.

[AFM]

Whats that phrase about beating a dead mule or something

[closg00]

Whats that phrase about beating a dead mule or something

Hey! It's a slow Saturday and a night-off. Also, there was no frickening way we were going to let any sniff of a rumor that Ernie didn't really want Jan, If Hands were here a month from now he would have been repeating it as gospel.

[montestewart]

Whats that phrase about beating a dead mule or something

You can't beat new tricks into a dead mule.
You can lead a dead mule to water, but you can't make it drink, although you can beat it.
Don't beat dead mules midstream.
Beat a dead mule, and it'll be dead, teach a dead mule to beat itself, and it'll be dead for life.
If all the world's a stage, beat a dead mule.
The journey of a 1000 miles begins with a dead mule. Beat it.

[payitforward]

No surprise to see Millie appear out of the ether while we were pasting the Cavs -- and *that was fun* I have to add!

Alas, poor soul, he assumed we'd beat the Lakers, and we disappointed him. Time to change the title of this thread: "Ernie Grunfeld a terrible GM, proves Millie wrong."

"Hollins is a good signing." -- Wow. Over the top wow.

Hollins IS a good signing -- he's actually an active basketball player. WAY better signing than Dave Hollins or Lionel Hollins to play this season.

Don't feel so smart now, do ya?

Do ya?!

I don't know about Lionel Hollins, but a Lionel train would have been as good a choice as Ryan Hollins.

But... it's not wise to expect many nuts from a blind squirrel like Ernie.

[payitforward]

That friend is misinformed. I talked with people -- more than one -- in the front office at the time. There was never even a suggestion that anyone had reservations about picking Vesely, but they were being overruled by someone higher up. They were excited about picking him. All of them. And they were all wrong.

Well everyone except Flip apparently.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2015/06/09/flip-saunders-says-the-wizards-considered-drafting-klay-thompson-over-jan-vesely-in-2011/

I will bring up that EG seems responsible for the pick though to my friend.

Wow. If they would have taken Thompson, they probably would have finished with a slightly better record and would have gone into the 2012 draft with the #5 or #6 pick instead of the #3. With Beal off the board, it would have been a choice between Barnes and Drummond. Imagine if they had chosen Drummond. There would have been no need for the Okariza trade so they instead would have eaten Rashard's buyout. That year, they would have rolled with:

Wall
Thompson
Webster (his best year)
Booker
Nene/Drummond

In the following season, they would have had max cap room and the 2013 pick (probably late lotto). How about Giannis Antetokounmpo and Paul Millsap?

Wall
Thompson
GreekFreak/Webster
Millsap/Booker
Drummond/Nene

This is my favorite activity -- rewriting history!

Imagine instead that they'd taken Leonard, then taken Faried #18 and Chandler Parsons (great college numbers -- an obvious R2 steal at the time) in R2. Then not done the Okariza trade but eaten RL's contract. They still might not have had a better record in 2011-12, but - following you - if they'd had the #5, #35 and #46 (went in Okariza trade) in the 2012 draft the could have taken Drummond, Draymond Green and Kyle O'Quinn (would have been my lineup of picks).

We have, as you say, a lotto pick in 2013 -- Antetokounmpo and Muscala in R2. We've dumped some of our dross (Crawford, etc.), and our 2013-14 roster includes:

PG Wall, Shaun Livingston (was w/ us the previous year -- we keep him)
SG ?, Webster
SF Leonard, Parsons, Antetokounmpo
PF Faried, Green, Nene, Booker
C Drummond, O'Quinn, Muscala

We have max cap room, allowing us to fill the SG position w/ a very good FA. We also have tons of assets for trades if we see ways to better balance the roster. We haven't traded for Gortat, but we could quite easily if we wanted to -- and give up much less for him as well.

We still have our 2014 R1 pick -- Gary Harris? -- and our R2 pick -- Jordan Clarkson?

And our 2015 pick. Given the *extraordinary* young assets we possess, do you think it would be hard to trade up? Far enough to pick e.g. Devin Booker? Further up to get Justice Winslow? Even higher and nab Porzingis? Who knows....

W/o doing the calculations, and depending who and how we signed a FA SG for the 2012-13 season, we have a heck of a young team, and we *still* are likely to have cap room at the current moment.

[closg00]

Deja-vu headline.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/24/AR2009092404585.html

[queridiculo]

You know what's sickening, how complicit the Washington Post and the local media in general have been in perpetually putting lipstick on the pig that is the Wizards franchise.

Jerry Brewer's latest piece is just another example.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/wizards/wizards-dont-need-directions-theyre-just-going-too-many-places-at-once/2015/12/15/b2486a00-a36a-11e5-b53d-972e2751f433_story.html

This team is still capable of winning 45 to 47 games, but General Manager Ernie Grunfeld and the front office will need to be as creative in the present as they have been in planning for the future.

[milellie111]

Way too early to panic and the overreactions are uncalled for.

-Wall is the best pg in the East

-With injury, Beal still averages 20 ppg

-Porters 28 point performance in Dallas shows that he can handle an increased load

-Gortat averages a double double so far the course of this season

-Ramon is one of the best backup pgs in the league right now

-Randy Wittman has out coached some of the leagues best coaches in games this season and in the playoffs the past 2 seasons.

Oh and,

- We're barely 20 games into the season

[nate33]

Way too early to panic and the overreactions are uncalled for.

-Wall is the best pg in the East

-With injury, Beal still averages 20 ppg

-Porters 28 point performance in Dallas shows that he can handle an increased load

-Gortat averages a double double so far the course of this season

-Ramon is one of the best backup pgs in the league right now

-Randy Wittman has out coached some of the leagues best coaches in games this season and in the playoffs the past 2 seasons.

Oh and,

- We're barely 20 games into the season

And we rank 11th in the Eastern Conference - already 3 games behind the 8th seed. And our point differential suggests we're even further behind the 8th seed.

[montestewart]

And your emoticon looks like he's picking his nose.

[DCZards]

And we rank 11th in the Eastern Conference - already 3 games behind the 8th seed. And our point differential suggests we're even further behind the 8th seed.

...and we're 6 games behind the #1 seed with 59 games to play.

[Zonkerbl]

Deja-vu headline.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/24/AR2009092404585.html

Or this:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wizards-insider/wp/2015/12/15/wizards-inability-to-defend-the-three-is-historically-bad/