Transaction Discussion Part 3 (Trades, Free-Agency, News, Rumors & Ideas)

[LACtdom]

?? 4 million dollars is a lot of money, if you get the chance of spending them or not for the same result, the choice is not difficult. I swear down, you guys obsession with Doc makes you use some really dodgy logic to force the narrative.

All relax until we know the protections on the pick, the trade will surely make us better for this year and give Green's bird rights for next season. If it's a heavily protected 1st it's definitely worth the chance, and I'm no Jeff Green fan.

To you and me, $4 million is a lot of money. To a professional NBA franchise, that's a pittance, especially if it doesn't have to pay a luxury tax for it. Money is less of a concern than what can be obtained for the salary space, which is the point. What exactly are the Magic going to do with that space for the rest of the season? Are you seriously going to argue that the Orlando Magic are in such a dire financial position to be that concerned over $4 million? Like I said, from what I've gathered, the onus was on Doc to make the deal. We'll see if subsequent reports will say if that was still the case, but the deal would have been done earlier if Doc was inclined and Orlando was growing impatient. Doesn't sound to me like Orlando was fretting over the financial burden of Lance Stephenson.

Come on. Now you're saying we should relax because Doc again gave up a lottery-protected pick for an impending free agent who is shooting 30.9% from beyond the arc and 43.1% from the field on the season? Yeah, Green is better than anything we have right now but that is not saying much. Doc continues to inefficiently address problems of his own making while you're holding out hope for a heavier protection on the pick. Why do you feel the need to give him the benefit of the doubt when he's done so little to earn it?

Green's Bird rights hold some appeal, but definitely not at the cost of a future first-round pick. You can argue all you want about the draft being a crapshoot but it's a cost-efficient opportunity to add talent to the roster, which Doc continues to discard with little thought.

I agree with Ranma. I am disappointed with this trade. So basically we are being asked to have faith in Doc that he can turn a player shooting 30% from the arc and is having a disappointing season, into Lance (who started out poor but is now defending and playing great). I honestly just see green throwing up bricks like Smith did and Doc scratching his head wondering why we aren't winning rings. I realise 3pt shooting isn't the be all and end all but Doc lives and dies by the 3pt shot so it's kind of important that we have high % shooters. Who knows, hopefully i'm wrong and Doc gets the best out of green unlike Smith, Lance, Mullens, Hawes, Farmar, etc.

[BlzMwt]

how does green's advanced defensive stats fare?

[TucsonClip]

how does green's advanced defensive stats fare?

Im actually writing an article on Green. He doesnt fare very well.

Here is an excerpt:

Defensively, Green has graded out a below average each of the last three years (-1.22, -2.05, -.27) according to ESPN's Real Plus-Minus. On-off numbers back up the DRPM stats as well. The Grizzlies are .1 points per 100 worse with him on the bench defensively this season and were 4.9 points per 100 better last season. Additionally, the Boston Celtics were +3.4 with him on the bench last season and +2.0 the year before.

[Quake Griffin]

could that package have gotten Danilo?

and how do we get to retain someone's bird rights for a half year rental?

[TucsonClip]

could that package have gotten Danilo?

and how do we get to retain someone's bird rights for a half year rental?

No way Denver gives up Danilo on that contract for that pick and Lance.

Bird rights are traded with a player, assuming the previous team had them

[Quake Griffin]

Oh, i thought Danilo was expiring.

nvm

[QRich3]

how does green's advanced defensive stats fare?

Im actually writing an article on Green. He doesnt fare very well.

Here is an excerpt:

Defensively, Green has graded out a below average each of the last three years (-1.22, -2.05, -.27) according to ESPN's Real Plus-Minus. On-off numbers back up the DRPM stats as well. The Grizzlies are .1 points per 100 worse with him on the bench defensively this season and were 4.9 points per 100 better last season. Additionally, the Boston Celtics were +3.4 with him on the bench last season and +2.0 the year before.

JE's RAPM has him as a positive every one of his Boston years though. In any case, using RPM or on/off as a definition of who a guy is defensively is not great, I bet your whole article gets into more depth and I look forward to read it, but I think he can help a lot. He doesn't have the greatest focus or feet movement but the guy has a 7+ feet wingspan and is pretty athletic and coordinated. I'm hopeful that he can be a better defender than anything we've had at SF over the years, including Barnes and Dudley (who have a better reputation and RPM but weren't really anything great here).

With the final news on the pick being lottery protected in 2019 and 2020 and then turning into a 2nd rounder in 2021, it's not great but it's really not that bad. Guys will get caught in the "wow-he-gave-another-pick" narrative but worst case scenario, the pick will be in the late teens in 2019, which is a reasonable price to pay for an average SF on a team that doesn't have any (and there wasn't any better available in the market either). Most likely it's gonna be a trade of Lance + a Wilcox/Bullock type of guy for Jeff Green.

The whole picks-are-valuable thing has to have some context or it's just parroting a narrative without thinking what it means. Green is in all likelihood gonna have a much better career than whoever is picked with that pick in the end, and he'll help now, when our core is in their prime, in an area of much need. If we don't do anything and our team falls apart in two years, then the Grizzlies just get a measly second rounder and it doesn't hurt our rebuild. I was ok with trading this sort of pick for a guy like EJ or Taj Gibson, and said so before the deadline. And Green is probably a better piece than EJ or Taj for us right now.

All in all, I'm not a big fan of the trade, but don't think it's a really bad one either, it's just meh. And if you guys can step out of your Doc feelings for a second you should be able to see it as such.

[Ranma]

With the final news on the pick being lottery protected in 2019 and 2020 and then turning into a 2nd rounder in 2021, it's not great but it's really not that bad. Guys will get caught in the "wow-he-gave-another-pick" narrative but worst case scenario, the pick will be in the late teens in 2019, which is a reasonable price to pay for an average SF on a team that doesn't have any (and there wasn't any better available in the market either). Most likely it's gonna be a trade of Lance + a Wilcox/Bullock type of guy for Jeff Green.

The whole picks-are-valuable thing has to have some context or it's just parroting a narrative without thinking what it means. Green is in all likelihood gonna have a much better career than whoever is picked with that pick in the end, and he'll help now, when our core is in their prime, in an area of much need. If we don't do anything and our team falls apart in two years, then the Grizzlies just get a measly second rounder and it doesn't hurt our rebuild. I was ok with trading this sort of pick for a guy like EJ or Taj Gibson, and said so before the deadline. And Green is probably a better piece than EJ or Taj for us right now.

All in all, I'm not a big fan of the trade, but don't think it's a really bad one either, it's just meh. And if you guys can step out of your Doc feelings for a second you should be able to see it as such.

Overall, I think you make a fair point here. I've already gone on record as saying I like the addition of Green in a vacuum. It's faint praise for me to say that this deal is not one of his worst transactions, but the idea of trading a pick for a rental is just another one of Doc's inefficiencies, which have been the reason why this team has been treading water during his time with the Clippers. It's one thing to make the occasional inefficient move to push us over the top, it's another when inefficient moves are the norm and not the exception. With lowered expectations, we can't expect much better from Doc, so in that sense, yeah...this is one of Doc's finer trades. The fact that we have lowered expectations is the problem.

What galls me more than anything is Doc's attitude towards discarding draft picks and not devoting the resources to identify and develop draftees to fit his system. In a recent roundtable discussion among NBA front office executives on the Vertical, there was mention of doing things the Dodger way with regards to bringing talent that fits into an organization and developing it and how that applies to NBA clubs as well. It's a great listen but underlines how clueless Doc is with regard to drafting and developing talent.

He doesn't even hide the fact that he has little to no interest to develop rookies or that he doesn't devote enough resources to even find the right fits for his own system to begin with in identifying prospects in the draft. He doesn't hold practices for the team, so it's little wonder that he doesn't spend time developing rookies. This is a wasted opportunity and exemplifies exactly why he should not be both the coach and GM. But I digress.

[TucsonClip]

JE's RAPM has him as a positive every one of his Boston years though. In any case, using RPM or on/off as a definition of who a guy is defensively is not great, I bet your whole article gets into more depth and I look forward to read it, but I think he can help a lot. He doesn't have the greatest focus or feet movement but the guy has a 7+ feet wingspan and is pretty athletic and coordinated. I'm hopeful that he can be a better defender than anything we've had at SF over the years, including Barnes and Dudley (who have a better reputation and RPM but weren't really anything great here).

I don't think Green is that good of a defender and the metrics, on/off and STL/BLK%s attest to that.

However, I do think that being the 5th option here and not having to carry the load offensively or be asked to create offense, theoretically, should allow him to focus more on his defensive assignments.

Basically, I dont like the value of the deal, dont think Green is that good of a player, but do acknowledge that this is a good situation for Green to excel in. Hopefully he can, but im not counting on it.

[nickhx2]

However, I do think that being the 5th option here and not having to carry the load offensively or be asked to create offense, theoretically, should allow him to focus more on his defensive assignments.

Basically, I dont like the value of the deal, dont think Green is that good of a player, but do acknowledge that this is a good situation for Green to excel in. Hopefully he can, but im not counting on it.

how far back in line are we right now, behind everybody else in the NBA? i mean as far as having to hope for jeff green to fulfill his talents.

[Quake Griffin]

Let's see how he handles Durant the next time.

Will be great to have 2 different bodies to throw at that guy that he can't just shoot over like they're his child…


please step it up Jeff.
please use that athleticism to become a plus defender.
*crosses fingers*

[TucsonClip]

However, I do think that being the 5th option here and not having to carry the load offensively or be asked to create offense, theoretically, should allow him to focus more on his defensive assignments.

Basically, I dont like the value of the deal, dont think Green is that good of a player, but do acknowledge that this is a good situation for Green to excel in. Hopefully he can, but im not counting on it.

how far back in line are we right now, behind everybody else in the NBA? i mean as far as having to hope for jeff green to fulfill his talents.

Green is 30, hasn't lived up to expectations for a majority of his 10 year career and is about to hit one last big payday with the cap rising. I'd say were jumping on a few cars from the caboose.

I hope im wrong.

[Don Tommy]

Now that the trade deadline has passed, let's look ahead to the buyouts. I know we signed the D League's leading rebounder, but we all know Doc won't play him much. So assuming David Lee, JJ Hickson and Kris Humphries are all available, are there any we want?

Personally, I can't stand David Lee. I didn't want to trade for Hickson, but for someone to spell Cole and DJ, a 13th man? Maybe. Kris may have a hard time playing in LA with the Kardashian followers, but he's always good for rebounds. I don't have advanced stats, but if we are using the buyout market for a big, I'd pick him.

[mattd13]

I was against getting lance in the first place knowing that there is a reason guys like him keep moving from team to team. same thing with green. I do think he is an improvement but he has also been moved some. on doc's behalf I think he had to try something because what we have is not working. in order for the clips to contend they have to get the 3 spot stable. right now it is a mess. pp is so inconsistent, wes can not defend or shoot, and luc is a good defender, not great, and does not help much on offense. I hope green works out. we need him to step in and contribute. I know most do not think much of david lee but I would take a look if it could work out.

[Quake Griffin]

I do wanna snag one of those bigs.

varejao, hickson or humphries.
just dunno where the minutes are going to come from when Blake gets back.

[Quake Griffin]

With the final news on the pick being lottery protected in 2019 and 2020 and then turning into a 2nd rounder in 2021, it's not great but it's really not that bad. Guys will get caught in the "wow-he-gave-another-pick" narrative but worst case scenario, the pick will be in the late teens in 2019, which is a reasonable price to pay for an average SF on a team that doesn't have any (and there wasn't any better available in the market either). Most likely it's gonna be a trade of Lance + a Wilcox/Bullock type of guy for Jeff Green.

The whole picks-are-valuable thing has to have some context or it's just parroting a narrative without thinking what it means. Green is in all likelihood gonna have a much better career than whoever is picked with that pick in the end, and he'll help now, when our core is in their prime, in an area of much need. If we don't do anything and our team falls apart in two years, then the Grizzlies just get a measly second rounder and it doesn't hurt our rebuild. I was ok with trading this sort of pick for a guy like EJ or Taj Gibson, and said so before the deadline. And Green is probably a better piece than EJ or Taj for us right now.

All in all, I'm not a big fan of the trade, but don't think it's a really bad one either, it's just meh. And if you guys can step out of your Doc feelings for a second you should be able to see it as such.

Overall, I think you make a fair point here. I've already gone on record as saying I like the addition of Green in a vacuum. It's faint praise for me to say that this deal is not one of his worst transactions, but the idea of trading a pick for a rental is just another one of Doc's inefficiencies, which have been the reason why this team has been treading water during his time with the Clippers. It's one thing to make the occasional inefficient move to push us over the top, it's another when inefficient moves are the norm and not the exception. With lowered expectations, we can't expect much better from Doc, so in that sense, yeah...this is one of Doc's finer trades. The fact that we have lowered expectations is the problem.

What galls me more than anything is Doc's attitude towards discarding draft picks and not devoting the resources to identify and develop draftees to fit his system. In a recent roundtable discussion among NBA front office executives on the Vertical, there was mention of doing things the Dodger way with regards to bringing talent that fits into an organization and developing it and how that applies to NBA clubs as well. It's a great listen but underlines how clueless Doc is with regard to drafting and developing talent.

He doesn't even hide the fact that he has little to no interest to develop rookies or that he doesn't devote enough resources to even find the right fits for his own system to begin with in identifying prospects in the draft. He doesn't hold practices for the team, so it's little wonder that he doesn't spend time developing rookies. This is a wasted opportunity and exemplifies exactly why he should not be both the coach and GM. But I digress.

CP said after the Spurs game that they just had 2 tough practices.



????

[nickhx2]

With the final news on the pick being lottery protected in 2019 and 2020 and then turning into a 2nd rounder in 2021, it's not great but it's really not that bad. Guys will get caught in the "wow-he-gave-another-pick" narrative but worst case scenario, the pick will be in the late teens in 2019, which is a reasonable price to pay for an average SF on a team that doesn't have any (and there wasn't any better available in the market either). Most likely it's gonna be a trade of Lance + a Wilcox/Bullock type of guy for Jeff Green.

The whole picks-are-valuable thing has to have some context or it's just parroting a narrative without thinking what it means. Green is in all likelihood gonna have a much better career than whoever is picked with that pick in the end, and he'll help now, when our core is in their prime, in an area of much need. If we don't do anything and our team falls apart in two years, then the Grizzlies just get a measly second rounder and it doesn't hurt our rebuild. I was ok with trading this sort of pick for a guy like EJ or Taj Gibson, and said so before the deadline. And Green is probably a better piece than EJ or Taj for us right now.

All in all, I'm not a big fan of the trade, but don't think it's a really bad one either, it's just meh. And if you guys can step out of your Doc feelings for a second you should be able to see it as such.

Overall, I think you make a fair point here. I've already gone on record as saying I like the addition of Green in a vacuum. It's faint praise for me to say that this deal is not one of his worst transactions, but the idea of trading a pick for a rental is just another one of Doc's inefficiencies, which have been the reason why this team has been treading water during his time with the Clippers. It's one thing to make the occasional inefficient move to push us over the top, it's another when inefficient moves are the norm and not the exception. With lowered expectations, we can't expect much better from Doc, so in that sense, yeah...this is one of Doc's finer trades. The fact that we have lowered expectations is the problem.

What galls me more than anything is Doc's attitude towards discarding draft picks and not devoting the resources to identify and develop draftees to fit his system. In a recent roundtable discussion among NBA front office executives on the Vertical, there was mention of doing things the Dodger way with regards to bringing talent that fits into an organization and developing it and how that applies to NBA clubs as well. It's a great listen but underlines how clueless Doc is with regard to drafting and developing talent.

He doesn't even hide the fact that he has little to no interest to develop rookies or that he doesn't devote enough resources to even find the right fits for his own system to begin with in identifying prospects in the draft. He doesn't hold practices for the team, so it's little wonder that he doesn't spend time developing rookies. This is a wasted opportunity and exemplifies exactly why he should not be both the coach and GM. But I digress.

i'm more of a casual dodger fan if anything but i'd kill to have a guy like andrew friedman leading the clippers. that said i am however a huge broncos fan and i'd do terrible, terrible things to have a john elway-level guy leading the clips.

can't we just get neil olshey back?

[Quake Griffin]

With the final news on the pick being lottery protected in 2019 and 2020 and then turning into a 2nd rounder in 2021, it's not great but it's really not that bad. Guys will get caught in the "wow-he-gave-another-pick" narrative but worst case scenario, the pick will be in the late teens in 2019, which is a reasonable price to pay for an average SF on a team that doesn't have any (and there wasn't any better available in the market either). Most likely it's gonna be a trade of Lance + a Wilcox/Bullock type of guy for Jeff Green.

The whole picks-are-valuable thing has to have some context or it's just parroting a narrative without thinking what it means. Green is in all likelihood gonna have a much better career than whoever is picked with that pick in the end, and he'll help now, when our core is in their prime, in an area of much need. If we don't do anything and our team falls apart in two years, then the Grizzlies just get a measly second rounder and it doesn't hurt our rebuild. I was ok with trading this sort of pick for a guy like EJ or Taj Gibson, and said so before the deadline. And Green is probably a better piece than EJ or Taj for us right now.

All in all, I'm not a big fan of the trade, but don't think it's a really bad one either, it's just meh. And if you guys can step out of your Doc feelings for a second you should be able to see it as such.

Overall, I think you make a fair point here. I've already gone on record as saying I like the addition of Green in a vacuum. It's faint praise for me to say that this deal is not one of his worst transactions, but the idea of trading a pick for a rental is just another one of Doc's inefficiencies, which have been the reason why this team has been treading water during his time with the Clippers. It's one thing to make the occasional inefficient move to push us over the top, it's another when inefficient moves are the norm and not the exception. With lowered expectations, we can't expect much better from Doc, so in that sense, yeah...this is one of Doc's finer trades. The fact that we have lowered expectations is the problem.

What galls me more than anything is Doc's attitude towards discarding draft picks and not devoting the resources to identify and develop draftees to fit his system. In a recent roundtable discussion among NBA front office executives on the Vertical, there was mention of doing things the Dodger way with regards to bringing talent that fits into an organization and developing it and how that applies to NBA clubs as well. It's a great listen but underlines how clueless Doc is with regard to drafting and developing talent.

He doesn't even hide the fact that he has little to no interest to develop rookies or that he doesn't devote enough resources to even find the right fits for his own system to begin with in identifying prospects in the draft. He doesn't hold practices for the team, so it's little wonder that he doesn't spend time developing rookies. This is a wasted opportunity and exemplifies exactly why he should not be both the coach and GM. But I digress.

i'm more of a casual dodger fan if anything but i'd kill to have a guy like andrew friedman leading the clippers. that said i am however a huge broncos fan and i'd do terrible, terrible things to have a john elway-level guy leading the clips.

can't we just get neil olshey back?

I know in both the Raiders and Dodgers cases (I know the Raiders suck but Reggie is doing a great job building it back up), they've had stretches where they've allowed a guy to stay on a little longer than most people would have liked and it seemed to be done to maintain the continuity of the organization.

Both those teams have relatively new GMs…..one using tons of analytics, the other, not o much.

Hopefully that WAS Ballmer's line of thinking after the Sterling fiasco and that he has officially seen enough to make a change.
It's his team. It's his choice and I'm sure on the road to $20 billion, he's made tougher decisions than firing Doc Rivers the GM. I'm still a fan of his as a coach….very much so.

Put me in the QRich camp.

[Ranma]

CP said after the Spurs game that they just had 2 tough practices.



????

I thought it was common knowledge by now that Doc is notorious for the lack of frequency in his practices. I believe he favors rest in this aproach. However, this was a particular concern when we were trying to jell as a team, especially given the amount of new faces on the roster. It also hindered the ability for Lance Stephenson, Josh Smith, Branden Dawson, and C.J. Wilcox to not only show what they got but also fit into the system. Doc, like with many other things, seems to employ the hands-off approach in relying on the players to take it upon themselves to improve. At the same time, he can be very demanding in his expectations.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/ArashMarkazi/status/552567435967332353[/tweet]

[Quake Griffin]

Oh, I was aware of that.

For some reason, the way you delivered it up above made me read/ comprehend what you wrote quite literally.