The Trade Thread: All Eyes Toward The Offseason

[Damkac]

Bulls fan here. What's Suns fans thoughts on Knight?

Would you take Rose for Knight straight up in a Knight salary dump?

I would, but only because one of Bled/ Rose always seems to be injured. Between them, I'm hoping we could cobble together a jobshare starting point guard, at least.

That, and I don't think BK has a role on this team any more. He'd be a good off ball starting point next to a ball dominating wing like Butler.

I don't think our GM would. Maybe if you threw in a late lotto pick or something, or even a future one, but he seems to like Knight a lot and gave up a pretty good asset to get him. I don't think his contract will look that terrible in two years if he turns into a premier 6th man type that can put points up in a hurry.

Unless some team is in love with Knight or Bledsoe I don't think any of them will be traded this offseason. Let's just start next season with Bled as pg, Book as sg and Knight as 6th men, all playing about 30 minutes. Then when they will build up their values trade one of them. Trading injured player who has lowered value is not very smart.
If somebody would offer expiring for Chandler I would trade him but wouldn't add any assets to get rid of him. Suns don't need cap space now.

Another Suns bashing thread on GB:
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1435166

[letsgosuns]

I never said Wall was available. Re-read my posts. I said maybe he asks for a trade. Who knows. I am 100% speculating. I also never said George was available either. I said I would trade for George. And I always look at it from the other team's perspective every time. Like the Pacers. How good is that team ever going to be with George. Can they attract any free agents. Have they already maxed out. If they think they cannot get any better and/or cannot sign a free agent, maybe they want to rebuild. So if the Suns call up and say we will give you two 2016 lottery picks plus Knight or Bledsoe and maybe another player or whatever, you think they would turn that down? We are talking about a top 5 pick and another potential late lottery pick, plus a player that can help immediately, and maybe even more. That offer is fantastic for any player in the league.

Let's put into perspective this hypothetical trade offer for a superstar:
A top five pick
A pick in the 12-13 range
Eric Bledsoe
another filler or maybe another future pick (not the Miami picks)

Tough to beat a package like that. Something like that rebuilds a team overnight. Most people on here argue that Bledsoe was playing like an all star prior to his injury this season so these are quality assets the Suns have.

I'd trade for those guys too. If your proposed trade package rebuilds a team instantly, why doesn't it rebuild ours? But to equate with your thinking, yes, we should trade for Wall, Westbrook, or LeBron. It doesn't look like OKC can go anywhere so they might as well trade Westbrook. The Cavs can't win the finals so they might as well trade LeBron. This is a slight exaggeration of what you sound like.

That package could rebuild the Suns and I am not eager to trade the package I mentioned. But I am basing my scenarios on what McDonough has said. He wants to turn the team around immediately. So that is why I keep saying I expect the Suns to trade their pick. He even said on the radio he is willing to trade it for the right player. Now imo, there is nothing they can do in one offseason to become championship contenders. The only way I think they instantly become real contenders is that dream scenario I mentioned a while back of trading for Blake Griffin and then signing Durant, which is most likely not going to happen.

This Suns team is so far away from being a contender and no one player is going to move the needle that much. However, they still have to start somewhere. So doing whatever you can and basically cold calling teams for their superstars is what the Suns need to do. Maybe they can get a team to bite at their offer. They gotta try.

Now I do not watch college sports and I know nothing about anyone in the upcoming draft other than what I read. I am not big on youtube highlight videos because those videos always make the player look like the greatest player of all time. You could make a Brandon Knight video and he will look like the best player in the NBA. Anyway, is there anyone available in the draft that will transform the Suns overnight? Like a rookie on par with the potential immediate impact of players like Grant Hill, Jason Kidd, Shaquille O'Neal, Chris Webber, Charles Barkley, Michael Jordan, Hakeem Olajuwan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Lebron James, Kevin Durant, etc. Is there anyone in this upcoming draft like that? If not, and if these players might take years to develop, I really envision the Suns packaging the pick to get the best star they can to make the team relevant again immediately.

[NaturalBuns]

The key is though that you have to be a team who is young and on the upswing to have a promising future at the 7 or 8 seed. For us, we've got to build around youth and a similar age range. Once they become good enough, we'll be in those spots, but until then, I don't see why we'd be better off with some plans to get there that involve signing vets or trading youth for moderate upgrades like I've seen at times here.

y

Signing a few vets isn't bad if they embrace the role of coaching the young guys. I can def say I'm happy with chandler because Len is really starting to develop. Dragic and Bledsoe developed under HOF guards. I feel like you need that mix unless you draft a superstar like Anthony Davis or along those lines.

Sorry, but Chandler was an awful signing. If you want leadership you can get it by signing a vet minimum aging guy who just wants another year of salary rather than a guy getting $13 million and half assing it for the first half of the season, while busting his ass to win games later on that we don't want to win. It made sense at the time but he's been awful this season. I was fine with it at the time b/c of the possibility of Aldridge and the fact that Tyson was coming off a career high win share (3rd in the entire NBA). He has fallen off a cliff in year 1 of his deal. That isn't good at all.

A vet min is not going to promise Len delevlops the way he did this year. He was literally showing no signs of improvement throughout his career until chandler showed up. It was a good move and still can be if the team stays healthy and develops. Having him as a backup C could turn into a luxury. The bad move was getting knight he is the one who is wasting cap space injured since he's been here and does no justice to his contract and the pick that was delt for him.

[Damkac]

Not sure if Len improved this much. He is shooting more and score more points but with worse %. Good thing is he is shooting more free throws and shooting them better. He also have much more assists. Rebounding gets a bit better. But he seems to get worse at D, and he gets only half of blocks from last season. It's weird because defense is something that should improve most when mentored by Chandler.

[AtheJ415]

Players who I think might be available and I am willing to trade the pick for: Harden, Griffin, George, Butler, and Wall. Players who I would never trade the pick for: Love and Cousins. Players who I cannot believe people are mentioning as stars and I have no interest in: Gallinari and Lopez. Those guys are third tier players. Now obviously the first set of players I mentioned would take more than just the pick. I would offer the pick and the Cleveland pick, and then some combination of either Bledsoe/Knight and another piece but not Booker in a million years.

And this is now the third time I have mentioned this but everyone keeps ignoring it. The Suns themselves traded Marbury in 2004 for absolutely nothing. They dumped him for cap space. He was considered a superstar at the time. He was the face of the franchise. He was averaging 21 pts and 8 ast a game at the time of the trade. It was his third straight year as a Suns player averaging over 20+ pts and 8+ ast. Those are superstar point guard numbers.

Kevin Garnett was traded for a zillion mediocre things and the Timberwolves have been horrible ever since the trade. But then they traded Kevin Love for one thing in Andrew Wiggins. Which is better. The answer is obvious. It is quality versus quantity. That is why a top three pick is worth far more than a plethora of random unproven players and protected picks.

Houston isn't trading Harden. They'll dump Dwight and attempt to regroup around Harden. If that fails he'll be moved, but I see almost no way you move a guy who finished 2nd in the MVP voting just last year, and who is age 26 with a few years left on his deal.

[AtheJ415]

y

Signing a few vets isn't bad if they embrace the role of coaching the young guys. I can def say I'm happy with chandler because Len is really starting to develop. Dragic and Bledsoe developed under HOF guards. I feel like you need that mix unless you draft a superstar like Anthony Davis or along those lines.

Sorry, but Chandler was an awful signing. If you want leadership you can get it by signing a vet minimum aging guy who just wants another year of salary rather than a guy getting $13 million and half assing it for the first half of the season, while busting his ass to win games later on that we don't want to win. It made sense at the time but he's been awful this season. I was fine with it at the time b/c of the possibility of Aldridge and the fact that Tyson was coming off a career high win share (3rd in the entire NBA). He has fallen off a cliff in year 1 of his deal. That isn't good at all.

A vet min is not going to promise Len delevlops the way he did this year. He was literally showing no signs of improvement throughout his career until chandler showed up. It was a good move and still can be if the team stays healthy and develops. Having him as a backup C could turn into a luxury. The bad move was getting knight he is the one who is wasting cap space injured since he's been here and does no justice to his contract and the pick that was delt for him.

A high-priced vet isn't going to promise Len develops either. You're operating under the assumption that Tyson alone is where Len's development is coming from. That is incredibly faulty. Should we thank Tim Duncan too since he worked with him in the offseason? If you want to say Tyson is responsible for all youth development, then yes you could convince yourself it's a good move. I think that's beyond naive though. Young guys develop simply through getting experience, practice, training, etc..

[saintEscaton]

I think the Twin Towers frontcourt has actually impeded Len's holistic development, making him play out of position and more away from the rim as a face up "mini-stretch" 4. Stilll looks like a baby girrafe learning to walk with his back to the basket, and they only feast on old banged up teams like the Grizz or terrible interior defenders like Vucevic

[Saberestar]

I think the Twin Towers frontcourt has actually impeded Len's holistic development, making him play out of position and more away from the rim as a face up "mini-stretch" 4.

I agree. Len is strictly a C, probably a face-up C in the future if he can make that midrange shot with better efficiency. He is good finishing around the rim, not elite but good enough to be an offensive weapon...but with Chandler and his defender always near the rim he can't make too much damage.

[NaturalBuns]

Sorry, but Chandler was an awful signing. If you want leadership you can get it by signing a vet minimum aging guy who just wants another year of salary rather than a guy getting $13 million and half assing it for the first half of the season, while busting his ass to win games later on that we don't want to win. It made sense at the time but he's been awful this season. I was fine with it at the time b/c of the possibility of Aldridge and the fact that Tyson was coming off a career high win share (3rd in the entire NBA). He has fallen off a cliff in year 1 of his deal. That isn't good at all.

A vet min is not going to promise Len delevlops the way he did this year. He was literally showing no signs of improvement throughout his career until chandler showed up. It was a good move and still can be if the team stays healthy and develops. Having him as a backup C could turn into a luxury. The bad move was getting knight he is the one who is wasting cap space injured since he's been here and does no justice to his contract and the pick that was delt for him.

A high-priced vet isn't going to promise Len develops either. You're operating under the assumption that Tyson alone is where Len's development is coming from. That is incredibly faulty. Should we thank Tim Duncan too since he worked with him in the offseason? If you want to say Tyson is responsible for all youth development, then yes you could convince yourself it's a good move. I think that's beyond naive though. Young guys develop simply through getting experience, practice, training, etc..

He showed no signs of develop though. Whether you agree who or disagree who has helped him is fine. Idk how you can ride him off though based off 1yr.

[Damkac]

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1435331
It's sad how low people value Bledsoe and Knight. Most like IT more than him :/
So many dumb moves last year.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Last season there were 16 teams with All-Star selected players, 12 of those teams are in playoffs this year = 75%.

Last season there were 14 teams without All-Star selected players, 4 of those teams are in playoffs this year = 28%.

So if extrapolated out to 100 years, you make the playoffs 47 times less if you don't have an All-Star.

[King4Day]

How would people feel about a sign and trade of Bledsoe for Conley this offseason. We'd have to overpay to convince him to want to play for us but he'd probably fit this team like a glove.
I could see Memphis consider it to salvage what they are likely to lose in Conley.
It probably couldn't be a straight up swap, but at least as a baseline.

[Qwigglez]

How would people feel about a sign and trade of Bledsoe for Conley this offseason. We'd have to overpay to convince him to want to play for us but he'd probably fit this team like a glove.
I could see Memphis consider it to salvage what they are likely to lose in Conley.
It probably couldn't be a straight up swap, but at least as a baseline.

Would not like it. Conley had a sub-par year and is injury riddled just like Bledsoe. Bledsoe was playing at an all-star level before he went down and he might be able to get back to that. The upside for Bledsoe is still a lot higher than Conley, plus like you said we'd most likely have to overpay for Conley, where Bledsoe is on a pretty great contract (if his injuries stop).

[bwgood77]

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1435331
It's sad how low people value Bledsoe and Knight. Most like IT more than him :/
So many dumb moves last year.

IT works better with two strictly defensive guards who don't care/need to have the ball in their hands like Smart and Bradley. Despite the numbers looking ok when he played with us, it never was going to work chemistry wise, particularly if McD told him he was going to start, as was quoted in an article I posted recently.

[jcsunsfan]

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1435331
It's sad how low people value Bledsoe and Knight. Most like IT more than him :/
So many dumb moves last year.

That's because IT is playing for Boston. Its a Boston bias and an East Coast bias. Half the people back east don't even know the west exists. GM's know the value.

[AtheJ415]

A vet min is not going to promise Len delevlops the way he did this year. He was literally showing no signs of improvement throughout his career until chandler showed up. It was a good move and still can be if the team stays healthy and develops. Having him as a backup C could turn into a luxury. The bad move was getting knight he is the one who is wasting cap space injured since he's been here and does no justice to his contract and the pick that was delt for him.

A high-priced vet isn't going to promise Len develops either. You're operating under the assumption that Tyson alone is where Len's development is coming from. That is incredibly faulty. Should we thank Tim Duncan too since he worked with him in the offseason? If you want to say Tyson is responsible for all youth development, then yes you could convince yourself it's a good move. I think that's beyond naive though. Young guys develop simply through getting experience, practice, training, etc..

He showed no signs of develop though. Whether you agree who or disagree who has helped him is fine. Idk how you can ride him off though based off 1yr.

So now he showed no signs of development? So which is it? Because if he's shown no signs of development then how can you say Tyson was a good signing because of Len's development? I'm not "writing him off". I'm just stating the current status of the signing. He's been awful this year and regressed mightily, something we expected later on in his deal, but not year 1. Tyson hasn't been worth his salary by any objective measure. The only thing people can resort to is development of others, but the vast majority of 23 year olds develop all on their own via practice and coaching.

[AtheJ415]

How would people feel about a sign and trade of Bledsoe for Conley this offseason. We'd have to overpay to convince him to want to play for us but he'd probably fit this team like a glove.
I could see Memphis consider it to salvage what they are likely to lose in Conley.
It probably couldn't be a straight up swap, but at least as a baseline.

I'd vomit on my key board and then rip my arm off so I could slingshot my laptop into the wall. Seriously, why would we want to get older with less upside? I can get aboard trading Bledsoe, but not for the right to overpay an older Conley likely more money than Bledsoe makes.

[NavLDO]

So, I was thinking (oof!), but if we do not draft Simmons, or sign or trade for, a seemingly legit PF, who would you keep to start next season:

The guy who has a 16.11 PER, or the guy with the 15.77 PER???

Here's Per36 for both (with Mirza averaging 22 min/gm, and Leuer 18 min/gm, so per36 wouldn't be a huge stretch of imagination):

Mirza--20.3 pts, 6.4TRB, 1.9 Asst, .395 3pt% on 10 att/36min, .471 2pt% on 8.9 att/36, .765% FT% on 4.5 att/36, 3.6 WS ...or...

Leuer----16.1 pts, 10.4TRB, 2.1 Asst, .382 3pt% on 3.3 att/36min, .504 2pt% on 10.1 att/36, .753% FT% on 2.9 att/36, 2.4 WS

Mirza would likely cost more, but is likely better, but he's also almost 4 years older (30 vice 26). Leuer isn't as good of a "Stretch 4", but is a bit better around the rim.

Both just had fairly decent performances in the loss to the Kings, which got me thinking on this.

Thoughts???

[Damkac]

Leuer. He brings more than just shooting 3s at every opportunity.

[bwgood77]

So, I was thinking (oof!), but if we do not draft Simmons, or sign or trade for, a seemingly legit PF, who would you keep to start next season:

The guy who has a 16.11 PER, or the guy with the 15.77 PER???

Here's Per36 for both (with Mirza averaging 22 min/gm, and Leuer 18 min/gm, so per36 wouldn't be a huge stretch of imagination):

Mirza--20.3 pts, 6.4TRB, 1.9 Asst, .395 3pt% on 10 att/36min, .471 2pt% on 8.9 att/36, .765% FT% on 4.5 att/36, 3.6 WS ...or...

Leuer----16.1 pts, 10.4TRB, 2.1 Asst, .382 3pt% on 3.3 att/36min, .504 2pt% on 10.1 att/36, .753% FT% on 2.9 att/36, 2.4 WS

Mirza would likely cost more, but is likely better, but he's also almost 4 years older (30 vice 26). Leuer isn't as good of a "Stretch 4", but is a bit better around the rim.

Both just had fairly decent performances in the loss to the Kings, which got me thinking on this.

Thoughts???

Easily Leuer, but it seems more and more including the FO might rather have Telly. Telly is the dangerous sniper, but Leuer is good out there as well, and I'm not sure how he would do on higher volume, but he has to be respected as a floor spreader. But Leuer is better at all other aspects of the game...passing, defense, rebounding, scoring at close range, being in right place at right time, etc.