Not In The Face - The Jeremy Lin Thread 3 + 1

[TinmanZBoy]

all the hype about lin having a great year in charlotte is interesting. He really just benefitted from much lower expectations here and from us being much better than the lakers. Our fans aren't as rabid as the lakers and we've had really poor backup pg situation for many of our years.

I mean statistically his shooting numbers dipped a bit, his steals and assists dipped dramatically, his turnovers only improved slightly.

I'm not really sure why everyone thinks he had some sort of career renaissance. I think he showed he's a capable player at two positions which helps his value a little. He stayed healthy so that helps as well.

His expectations were a lot lower on a small contract i think that's really the big difference. I can't imagine he did anything to establish his value as a full time starter though.

What were the rumored teams interested in him last season besides us, anyone know?

I just can't see what he did to establish much more value than he already had last offseason. Other than getting the stink of that horrible lakers team off of him and the cap spike of course...

There is no hype. What u said is right though... It's the expectation was so low for him this year, giving people the impression he had a better year than yeas in rockets and lakers... And the consensus is lin found his role in this league as a combo guard a sixth man... It seems lin himself agrees now... He actually performed similarly in the Lakers...
I still think his years in rockets were better, as bad as he performed at times, they still called him solid starter, a 16-20 ranked pg in the league... People and himself had high hopes in lakers thought he would make the leap without the presence of harden, byron Scott ruined him, he did not fight back...
In he real, his career is still trending downward... As a fan, it is sad to see

[2k15]

all the hype about lin having a great year in charlotte is interesting. He really just benefitted from much lower expectations here and from us being much better than the lakers. Our fans aren't as rabid as the lakers and we've had really poor backup pg situation for many of our years.

I mean statistically his shooting numbers dipped a bit, his steals and assists dipped dramatically, his turnovers only improved slightly.

I'm not really sure why everyone thinks he had some sort of career renaissance. I think he showed he's a capable player at two positions which helps his value a little. He stayed healthy so that helps as well.

His expectations were a lot lower on a small contract i think that's really the big difference. I can't imagine he did anything to establish his value as a full time starter though.

What were the rumored teams interested in him last season besides us, anyone know?

I just can't see what he did to establish much more value than he already had last offseason. Other than getting the stink of that horrible lakers team off of him and the cap spike of course...

i mean its not just lin fans sitting around here circle-jerking each other.

Vertical agrees - http://sports.yahoo.com/news/top-10-point-guards-in-free-agency-210031505.html

Clifford agrees - http://www.nba.com/hornets/video/teams/hornets/2016/05/02/1462212958248-160502-Coach_Exit-001.m4v-491638

if you disagree, i wont lose too much sleep. id trust the vertical and clifford more than you.

[2k15]

There is no hype. What u said is right though... It's the expectation was so low for him this year, giving people the impression he had a better year than yeas in rockets and lakers... And the consensus is lin found his role in this league as a combo guard a sixth man... It seems lin himself agrees now... He actually performed similarly in the Lakers...
I still think his years in rockets were better, as bad as he performed at times, they still called him solid starter, a 16-20 ranked pg in the league... People and himself had high hopes in lakers thought he would make the leap without the presence of harden, byron Scott ruined him, he did not fight back...
In he real, his career is still trending downward... As a fan, it is sad to see

no offense, but i feel like you really don't have a good read on the whole lin situation

[TinmanZBoy]

i mean, it sounds like you don't really know lin. he never had killer instinct like kobe had killer instinct. he plays with swagger because he likes spotlights and big moments but swagger is not killer instinct.

U can't compare lin with Kobe....but in this league if u want to be a star, u have to have it... Kemba, IT, all had to fight so hard to be this level because of their miniature size... Lin had the aspiration to be an all star, to be a starting pg, I don't think have it now...

idk. there are two different points here right.

1. IT/kemba played hard because they're small and so to be better, they gotta work harder. i.e. they played with a chip on their shoulder. is it true that lin doesnt have a chip on his shoulder anymore? maybe, but i dont see why that means he cant be a really good player or an All-star even.

2. should lin want to be an all-star? if he does, then he gotta leave this summer and go get whatever starter job he can. its not clear to me he ever did. even during lin's days as a knick, during linsanity, what he loved was the team play and the togetherness of the group. he wants to play well and win a chip but individual accolades has never been something he pined for.

I don't think u get the point... People doubted IT his whole career, even after he put up 20/6 season in Sacramento...he only got an offer of 18m/3years from Suns, and he fighted tail and nails to stand out even if he had to share the court with dragic and Bledsoe...he was called selfish at times...if he does not believe himself his own game, he would have taken a back seat to whomever, would not be the all star he is now
Of course lin wants to be an all star, to be a starter...but I have to admit he just does not have it, no obvious improvement skill wise the last three years...mentally, I think he is more fit to be complimentary role now...just does not have it to be a star

[2k15]

I don't think u get the point... People doubted IT his whole career, even after he put up 20/6 season in Sacramento...he only got an offer of 18m/3years from Suns, and he fighted tail and nails to stand out even if he had to share the court with dragic and Bledsoe...he was called selfish at times...if he does not believe himself his own game, he would have taken a back seat to whomever, would not be the all star he is now
Of course lin wants to be an all star, to be a starter...but I have to admit he just does not have it, no obvious improvement skill wise the last three years...mentally, I think he is more fit to be complimentary role now...just does not have it to be a star

look, i dont have to change your mind in order to sleep tonight but you dont have a good read on this situation. lin is a warrior and im just gonna leave it there.

[TinmanZBoy]

I don't think u get the point... People doubted IT his whole career, even after he put up 20/6 season in Sacramento...he only got an offer of 18m/3years from Suns, and he fighted tail and nails to stand out even if he had to share the court with dragic and Bledsoe...he was called selfish at times...if he does not believe himself his own game, he would have taken a back seat to whomever, would not be the all star he is now
Of course lin wants to be an all star, to be a starter...but I have to admit he just does not have it, no obvious improvement skill wise the last three years...mentally, I think he is more fit to be complimentary role now...just does not have it to be a star

look, i dont have to change your mind in order to sleep tonight but you dont have a good read on this situation. lin is a warrior and im just gonna leave it there.

I agree he is a warrior I am proud of him...have a good sleep man

[steady]

too bad Lin didn't show up when we really needed him in game 6. If he would have made two more baskets we would have won

Nobody showed up in Game 6 besides Kemba. The whole team got complacent and too happy after Game 5.

It's tough, gotta keep in mind, a lot of the guys were playoffs win virgins coming into this series. Lee probably hadn't made a game winning rebound + three point shot for a long time. Al haven't won for a long long time. Lin had never been arguably the most important player for playoff wins. It's inevitable that they'd go all out and were very excited to get three straight wins and an away win. It really hurt that Hawes was out.

It was at home, it helped and might have contributed to overconfidence. Not totally sure if they were complacent and too happy but one thing for sure, they were not as desperate as their opponents. It's gonna be one of Wade's few last chances, and he missed the playoffs last season, he definitely don't want to let this opportunity slip away. Deng, Whiteside, JJ are all free agents. They have big pride as an organization and losing four in a roll would have been unacceptable.

Another possibility was that they were too hyped up in the first two games by the Bosh pep talk and went out of steam, and maybe got overconfident.

And perhaps Pat did something after game 5?

Actually Lin in Houston was primarily responsible for one of their playoff wins against the Blazers in his second year there - In his first healthy playoffs. And throughout that series which had a few OTs and close games - he was one of their most reliable scorers in 4th Quarter and OT.

Linsanity was no accident. As one of his college teammates said, Lim was not always consistent, but he always got up for the big games.

[rallydurham]

Yeah lin was clearly better in houston than he was in la or charlotte. That's why I'm not sure he's going to have a ton of renewed interest if he didn't last offseason. I think it's just more that people are starting to embrace him as a nice backup combo guard.

The FA pg market is interesting. I think new York will make dellavedova a big offer like 4/$30 as he's perfect for the triangle. He's a non ballhandler that can shoot. Tyler johnson will probably get the max restricted offer. I think deron is a 2/$16 type deal. Jerryd Bayless had a nice season i think his offer will be in line with what lin gets

[phillycheese]

You can't really compare Houston stats to Charlotte unless you account for the pace of play. Plus they played no defense in Houston and Lin has much greater defensive responsibilities here. He started an entire season in Houston and put up 13.7 pts alongside Harden. Ty Lawson was considered a top 10 PG but screwed the pooch given the same role, and we all saw what Beverley did which was pretty pathetic offensively and his defense was no longer considered that great this year. That said, I think Beverley would have been a good player in Cliff's defensive system.

[ChokeFasncists]

I was really underwhelmed with the coaching in this series on both sides. I was appalled the most by the many blatant (and simple) tactical mistakes, that could have easily been re-thought. The main takeaway I got from this series is that both coaches are very stubborn and slow to adjust. While I do think that Spoelstra and Clifford are two of the best coaches in the league (in terms of getting their teams ready to play), I was tremendously unimpressed by their game-to-game adjustments in this series (only minor tweaks game-to-game). It made me recall the time Spo got destroyed by Carlise's various adjustments in the 2011 Finals. Rick is the man!

No kidding, however, I suspect that players nowadays don't like to be used in a strategic way. It's a players' league afterall. Perhaps that's why he doesn't stick with teams until maybe the team where a certain German is the franchise player. Pop, of course, is in a very unique situation.

Anyway, here's the main things I was shaking my head at during the series:

Clifford going away from the two-point guard lineup that won them 3 games.

In that offense, they would have one guard initiate a high PnR beyond the top of the arc, and then if that PnR was covered (or a misdirection) they would swing it to the left wing (For Kemba) or the right wing (for Lin) to set up another PnR. The pace of the game became noticeably faster with the offense being initiated this way, and it really helped to spread out driving lanes, which was the only way the Hornets could score easily in the span of this entire series. Then when Batum came back, Clifford reverted back to initiating the offense via a high Kemba PnR, or a wing-Batum PnR after a long developing curl. The pace became slow, and the space for drives suffered. With no drives, you saw a lot of pull-up jumpers (especially the first two games, and TODAY). They won 0 games with this offense, and it never looked good even in losses.

Seriously don't know what the result would have been if Nic never came back......I really like him and his game, but the playoffs is a different animal.

The horrible moments when Clifford would continue to play the overmatched Zeller when Whiteside was in the game--or continue to play Jefferson/Frank's slow, slow, slow rotations when Whiteside was out (and the Heat were playing small). Similarly, not playing Zeller as a mobile Center when Whiteside was out, in order to abuse Stoudemire/McBob's immobility on defense, and counter their small-ball.

Could it be that Zeller being put on Whiteside contributed to his injury? He was really struggling out there.

Playing a hobbled Batum on the perimeter when lack of perimeter defense is how you got blown out in all of the losses. Giving hobbled Batum his normal playmaking duties, and making him run curls on a bum ankle, only to initiate a slow moving play--when the only type of successful offense in the series had occurred when the pace was pushed. (I hope this was a political move--as in "We have to keep Batum happy to re-sign him"--otherwise, it reflects extremely poorly on Clifford)

Ha, ya totally possible. Isn't that the priority? OTOH, would have been better to win that game, let Batum heal and in the next series make him even happier......oh well......

Look, I'm not gonna engage in hating on Lin.

That would be greeeeaaaattttt!!! Plzzzzz Yes!!!

[rallydurham]

Yeah Beverley was just a better fit with harden. Harden is ball dominant and so you want to pair him with a great shooter/defender like Beverley not a penetrator like lin. Harden is a defecto point guard on offense

[Kytan]

Away from lurking on these forums for a couple of days and Lin's thread exploded.

I have this drafted a couple of weeks back but was waiting for a good opportunity to post (i.e. post CHA play-off run) so here goes:

I think there will only be 3 feasible scenarios in free agency for Lin. And the pros and cons for each.

Assumptions made:
- Lin will not be offered a starter's role on the teams with winning percentage in the current 2016 season
- Lin will not want to join an ageing contending team with a slim championship window
- Lin will not want to sign with, or return to a team with superstars who are perceived to have huge ego or selfish

Scenario #1: Giving the Hornets a good-will discount and re-signing for 15m/3yrs to 18m/3yrs with player option for the final year.

Factors for:
- CHA has a well balanced, up-coming team with very good chemistry, bonding and team spirit among the players
- Classy fans that really appreciates him, both as a person and a great chemistry guy who does not whine and gives 101%
- Relatively less media scrutiny and a more laid back, fun and conducive work environment
- A team that is likely to have a winning % and make it to the play-offs on a regular basis in the next few years of his contract
- Key contributor / important 6th man role despite not a starting role
- Potential spot starter (at PG / SG) down the stretch throughout the season (when injuries take a toll)

Factors against:
- Uncertainty of role, minutes, returning team-mates (major shuffle that may occur during the off season)
- Likely to have decreased playing time with a crowded bench (if everyone is re-signed and back, MKG returning from injury)
- While possible, CHA is extremely unlikely to win the championships in the next 2-3 years (in no means trying to disrespect the Hornets)

Scenario #2: Signing with his home town team Warriors for 7.5m/3yrs to 9m/3yrs with player option for the final year.

Factors for:
- Playing for home town team (near family, friends)
- Playing for a young team with good chemistry that may be championship contender for years to come
- Chance to be with a special team that may potentially be among the best in NBA's history
- Chance to leave personal legacy as the first Asian American player to win a championship ring (albeit a likely bit part role)

Factors against:
- Minimal earning / income (winning championships takes precedence)
- Minimal or inconsistent playing time (a deep bench player, likely 8th to 10th player)
- No guarantees of either winning championship or breaking records (e.g. injury to team's superstar)
- Consistent pressure of meeting expectations when playing in front of home town supporters / family / friends (e.g. poor games, minimal playing time)

Scenario #3: Sign for 24m/3yrs to 30m/3yrs for a team that offers the best money and a starter job (e.g. Nets, 76ers).

Factors for:
- Best income opportunity
- Starter job (at least initially)

Factors against:
- Likely to be on a losing or a border-line team
- Intense media scrutiny
- Consistent pressure to perform / carry the team night after night
- Starter position may not be guaranteed (e.g. Lin's second season in HOU Rockets)
- Uncertainty about chemistry with team-mates (especially when the losses started piling up)

-----

If I am in Jeremy's shoes, I will straight out eliminate scenario #3 as I do not wish to be on a losing team despite the money. Only scenarios #1 or #2 would warrant serious considerations.

[Flip Murray]

Hilarious zoom in on Lin's face:

https://streamable.com/w2em


And a guy on reddit increased the zoom:

https://streamable.com/ne12

[hood30]

For Hornets,will put Batum, Marvin, Lee and a starting C (maybe DH) ahead of Lin for sure. For Lin, other teams who can give him starting position like 76ers or Nets will be more attractive.

NBA Rumors: Chicago Bulls To Start Jeremy Lin, Jimmy Butler Next Season Possible

Read more: http://en.yibada.com/articles/120639/20160502/nba-rumors-chicago-bulls-start-jeremy-lin-jimmy-butler-next.htm#ixzz47XSurjsy

I see nothing legitimate in that article.

It says - ESPN insiders say that Batum will be priority for Charlotte

It goes on - Bill simmons has proposed theory that Rose will be traded.

And the coup de grace - Lin will go to Bulls for 12 million (this piece of article was pure speculation)\

In fact, the final piece isn't even a rumor. They made it up out of **** thin air.

I wouldn't give any cridence to these articles since they are simply click-bait article written by folks in China just to get traffics. Many of these writers are also Lin fan and they understand they are a lot of Lin fan on the internet who are searching for any news about Lin.

[Diop]

I have started a thread on the trade and transactions board where you can openly discuss where Lin should go next year.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1441521


Remember the thread on the Hornets board is for Charlotte related discussion only.

[hood30]

all the hype about lin having a great year in charlotte is interesting. He really just benefitted from much lower expectations here and from us being much better than the lakers. Our fans aren't as rabid as the lakers and we've had really poor backup pg situation for many of our years.

I mean statistically his shooting numbers dipped a bit, his steals and assists dipped dramatically, his turnovers only improved slightly.

I'm not really sure why everyone thinks he had some sort of career renaissance. I think he showed he's a capable player at two positions which helps his value a little. He stayed healthy so that helps as well.

His expectations were a lot lower on a small contract i think that's really the big difference. I can't imagine he did anything to establish his value as a full time starter though.

What were the rumored teams interested in him last season besides us, anyone know?

I just can't see what he did to establish much more value than he already had last offseason. Other than getting the stink of that horrible lakers team off of him and the cap spike of course...

To be fair to Lin, as for his assist totals, he played a large amount of his minutes as a shooting guard and was asked to be more than a back-up PG and try to score, so I wouldn't criticize him too much on the fact that his assist numbers went down from his Lakers' stats. Keep in mind that Kemba is very ball-dominant and Clifford had Batum facilitate a large amount too, so opportunity for Lin to get assist were a bit limited.

His shooting line for this year has regressed from previous years, but that may be because he decided to tweak his shooting mechanics which I felt was a terrible idea since his shooting lines were pretty good and until this year, his 3point shooting was going up each year.

For this year, Lin did record the highest PPG per 36minutes which stands at 16.1ppg..that is his highest number since his Linsanity year with the Knicks.

Lin also went to the free throw line at a very high rate this year, specially when you consider the fact that he was a bench player who only played about 25mpg...I believe he's in the top 10 among guards in the league as for getting to the free throw line per 36.

So in theory, if you take into account the fact that he only started 13 games and was asked to play out of position for 70% of his minutes, it's understandable why many feels Lin had a terrific year and deserve some serious offer this summer which is already thin with good PG.

Lin has also proved he can play the 2guard position a bit and that should boost his market value a bit.

[renmei]

If Lin stays I can understand why, I did something similar in my life. It's not always about the $$, I left the private industry for a slightly lower paying government job with a much less hectic/more stable schedule, less toxic work environment, great coworkers and a lot more free time to be with my family. It's kinda sad as a fan to see Lin taking a smaller role, especially with MKG coming back.. too many cooks in the kitchen. And I'm not happy with Lin eager about volunteering to take a discount to come back..

[leeramundo]

Why I think he had a great year is he showed versatility as a combo guard and improved and consistent defense, also for both guard positions. His offensive stats dipped but he came up big for the Hornets for multiple big moments and won them some games. Add to that a mostly strong showing in the playoffs and you have him doing a whole lot more than he has in years.

[steady]

I think the positive reviews Lin has been getting have a lot to do with his overall impact on the team, not just his individual numbers

There were times the Hormets bench struggled this year but for most part the bench was one of their strengths - as they were in the playoffs . When you look at the offensive and defensive efficiency numbers for the playoffs - it is Night and day / bench across the board had positive numbers with Spencer Hawes leading it with something close to 30 but Lin second with plus 26 when he was on floor. (I might be counting Frank and Al as bench players here which I know is a bit iffy given how series went -- but you get the general idea. I know Frank had positive number). Courtney Lee had good numbers - plus 24 or something like that. But the rest of starters were in substantial negative territory with Batum having the worst numbers at -34 if I remember right.

You can say some of this was due to Heat bench being so much weaker than their starters and that is true but you need to have a good bench to take advantage of that situation And the Hornets had a good bench this year. And Lin is getting some of the credit for that.

And because of the salary cap, a fair number of teams have weak benches and could use an upgrade in this area.

I also think how badly the Rockets - specifically Harden/Howard- played this year has cast a new (and more sympathetic) light on Lin's time there.

Before it was like yeah Lin fans say it is hard to play with Harden, and now it is just conventional wisdom even among Rockets fans.

Again not saying he is a superstar but these playoffs did I think make people take a really serious second look at him. And I expect him to get a good deal

[ChokeFasncists]

Coming into this season, if you would've asked me if Jeremy Lin could play SG for stretches during a game without getting destroyed--I would've said yes.

Then I would've given you a caveat to that statement, and said that you probably shouldn't play Lin at SG for anything longer than 5-8 minutes though--because he's just not long enough to effectively defend SGs with an above-average offensive game. Yes, he's a big Point Guard at 6'3/205--so he has some combo ability--but at the end of the day, he's still a Point Guard.

Fast forward to this season, and this year--Jeremy played 26.3 Minutes per game. In those minutes, he played 9.7 minutes at PG--and--16.6 at SG. That breaks down into Jeremy Lin playing 37% of the time at PG--and 63% at SG.

That is pretty freaking crazy to me.

It is pretty nuts that Jeremy Lin had a pretty good season, all while playing out of position during 2/3rds of his minutes. I don't see any other way than to think that feat was impressive. And the truth is--I think Lin playing well despite being played out of position is glossed over all the time--and I think it's so easily glossed over because he actually pulled it off.

Just think about it--when some guy plays out of position and gets destroyed--you are constantly reminded that the guy playing out of position is doing so, because (duh), he's constantly getting destroyed. But this year, even while playing out of position at SG, Jeremy held his own on both defense and offense the vast majority of the time despite being undersized. He held it so well, it never really was a story. I myself was surprised when the numbers said he played 2/3rds of the time at SG. I was like, "He did? TF?" It just didn't feel like it, you know?

And that's kind of the whole point. He played the SG position so well, you weren't constantly reminded he was playing out of position--because whatever position he was playing--it was going smooth enough not to be a negative.

And that's a positive. He played the position so well, it was easy to forget about it if you were not paying attention (or just hopped on for the playoffs).

That come back against Middleton was possibly one of the most impressive and stunning come back ever.

These things being said--to give perspective--I think it's unfair to knock Lin's defense in general in this series, just because of his struggles with Wade.

Yes, Wade abused him on the post on several clear instances. What did you expect to happen? DWade is an actual shooting guard--Lin is a point guard. Wade is 220--Lin is 205. 15 pounds of muscle is a huge difference. Of course DWade was going to abuse Lin in the post. Lin has gotten to the point where he can now reliably guard average shooting guards (despite being a point guard), but asking him to guard one of the best shooting guards of all time is still a bad idea. And Lin getting beat by Wade in the post is not ammo to trash on his defense either, because once again--Lin is a point guard--and shouldn't even be guarding Wade to begin with. He actually overachieved to even be given that assignment. He's done well to get to this point, and performed at a high level. When he actually played defense against his natural position and went up against Dragic, he actually performed superb the majority of the time. More respect to his D.

Well, unfortunately, in almost every game, Wade was totally warmed and Lin just got into the game, Wade would score on him and it looked real bad. However, after Lin warms up, he was able to shut him down sometimes. Lee got abused in the post by Wade quite a bit too. Wade has aged surprisingly well, he's resurrected from that corpse dragged by LeBron.

To me, there's only one area to accurately trash on Lin, and that is his tendency to overhelp on an opponent who is posting. He telegraphs his help too easily, and his man gets open treys too often. It's always been a problem of his since he got into the league. It happened several times in the 1st half of Game 7. If you want to trash freely, trash there--but not on the topic of guarding Wade or Dragic.

If you're gonna trash, it's gotta be accurate trash talk.

Agreed. He's gotta pick and choose when and whom to double on, when and whom to leave open. Dunno if it's got something to do with the team's defensive strategy tho. For example Deng and JJ get left open quite often as well. His help D actually did help many times OTOH. So I'm kinda torn on this, especially since Silas and Cliff so good at this and so strict about details, there's no way they don't make sure Lin does the right thing according to them?