ECF: | (1) Cleveland Cavaliers vs (2) Toronto Raptors | CLE 2-1

[Steelo Green]

Il get through the next 4 months just fine. Your offseason isn't too far away either (4 more games to be exact) let's not be delusional.

If anything I'd be scared str8 at Raps offseason. Derozan Max incoming lol. It's no secret 90% of the Raps board doesn't even want him back. Yet somehow they are the "second best backcourt" FOH with that trollish nonsense.

Your own fan base hates him. That tells me all I need to know.

Add in other teams fan bases like the lakers are praying their FO isn't dumb enough to sign this guy. I've gone on record to say if Derozan is in a heat uniform I would stop following the heat instantly lol.

Enjoy what's left of your season. Winter is coming. This will be as good as it gets for the raps imo. Took them awhile and they needed key injuries and for the heat to be down more than half their salary cap to get there but they did it!

Who has said our whole fan base hates him? You are making the assumption that a group of the people on realgm is our whole fanbase. Kinda foolish if you ask me.

Winter is coming? dumbass summer is coming and we are still in the playoffs. You mention the Injuries to Miami but forget that all year toronto battled injuries as well and still ended up second in the east and beat you in the playoffs.. If you can't make a point without ignoring the other side of the discussion you might as well stop because no one is going to listen to you ramble because you come across as a homer.

You didn't actually think I meant winter was coming as in actually winter lol it's just a saying from GOT's. End is near bud.

Injuries to over paid role players like Carrol and JV during the regular season cannot compare to losing franchise superstars like Bosh and Hassan. And losing an all time great like Lebron as well. I'd say we did just fine everything considered.

Like I said, enjoy the last 4 to 5 games left in the season. Enjoy the taste of the ECF. Enjoy hating on Derozan on the reasonable contract that he is on, cuz soon that's gonna be super max 30% SG.

Take it all in. Never know how long it could take to make it back to this stage.

[jumpstart]

Cavs in 4. Raptors are horrible. The east stinks. Cav are mostly at risk losing the first game because Lebron always give the first one up.

lol

"teh eest sux! teh est blowz! teh east steenks!"

I swear there's like only 2 dudes with 100 different accounts that keep spewing that lol.

What do you expect people to say? Its true. I think the raptors/miami series was really good. They're both at the same level.

[jumpstart]

lol

"teh eest sux! teh est blowz! teh east steenks!"

I swear there's like only 2 dudes with 100 different accounts that keep spewing that lol.

What do you expect people to say? Its true. I think the raptors/miami series was really good. They're both at the same level.

one team gets the ECF spot by default. its a bad division.

[strudel forever]

"teh eest sux! teh est blowz! teh east steenks!"

I swear there's like only 2 dudes with 100 different accounts that keep spewing that lol.

What do you expect people to say? Its true. I think the raptors/miami series was really good. They're both at the same level.

one team gets the ECF spot by default. its a bad division.

Dude why are you having a conversation with yourself. It's not going to make your argument any more worthwhile.

[dreamshake]

Cav are mostly at risk losing the first game because Lebron always give the first one up.

LeBron is 22-3 in game 1's at home.

[Ben-N1ce]

Cavs in 4. Raptors are horrible. The east stinks. Cav are mostly at risk losing the first game because Lebron always give the first one up.

lol

"teh eest sux! teh est blowz! teh east steenks!"

I swear there's like only 2 dudes with 100 different accounts that keep spewing that lol.

One can easily argue 8 out the top 10 players in the entire NBA are in the West and the 10th player is in the East to boot..

[jumpstart]

What do you expect people to say? Its true. I think the raptors/miami series was really good. They're both at the same level.

one team gets the ECF spot by default. its a bad division.

Dude why are you having a conversation with yourself. It's not going to make your argument any more worthwhile.

get lost.

[Vee-Rex]

lol

"teh eest sux! teh est blowz! teh east steenks!"

I swear there's like only 2 dudes with 100 different accounts that keep spewing that lol.

One can easily argue 8 out the top 10 players in the entire NBA are in the West and the 10th player is in the East to boot..

At this point people are finding any little reason to whine about it.

Which teams you want to see in the finals?

"OKC and GS because teh east sux!"

Will Trump win the election?

"idk but the east sux!!!!11"

[KnightofHyrule]

"teh eest sux! teh est blowz! teh east steenks!"

I swear there's like only 2 dudes with 100 different accounts that keep spewing that lol.

What do you expect people to say? Its true. I think the raptors/miami series was really good. They're both at the same level.

one team gets the ECF spot by default. its a bad division.

I understand....the basketball isn't pretty. But what baffles me is the fact that nobody is crediting the Raptors, Pacers and Heat defense for the reason that the offenses struggled.

Let's look at facts, not just conjecture. The Raptors were 0-2 against Golden State, losing by margins of 3 and 5 points. They are 1-1 against San Antonio. They were 1-1 against Oklahoma City. They were 2-0 against the LA Clippers. They were 2-0 against Portland. They were 2-0 against Dallas. They were 2-0 against Memphis.

So, against the top 7 teams in the west, the Raptors went 10-4. 10-4 against this so called "superior" conference.

The argument against this is that "that was the regular season". But let's think about that. Regular season success translates to postseason success. When was the last time a 8th seed won the NBA Championship? 4th seed? Can't remember? Exactly. The teams that do extremely well in the regular season are the teams that will do well in the playoffs.

So, people can continuously say that the Eastern Conference is the weaker conference, but I BEG to differ, because they have little facts.

Thunder are 0-2 against Cavs, 1-1 against Raptors, 1-1 against Heat, 1-1 against Hawks, 1-1 against Celtics, 2-0 against Hornets, and 1-1 against Pacers.

My facts are this:
Raptors 10-4 against the West top 7. Thunder 7-7 against the East top 7.

My facts are also as I posted already:

Nice records. Congrats. What do any of that have to do with the fact that the cavs have the easiest path to the finals?

Cavs first round: 42 win Pistons
Warriors first rond: 41 win Rockets.
Pistons 2-0 against Rockets this season.

Cavs second round: 48 win Hawks
Warriors second round: 44 win Blazers
Hawks 2-0 against Blazers

Cavs third round: 56 win Raptors
Warriors third round: 55 win Thunder
Raptors 1-1 against Thunder.

Do I think Raptors are better than the Thunder? Maybe, maybe not. They are 3-3 head to head in the last three years. But there is absolutely no argument to suggest the West is definitely better than the East, other than LeBron being 2-3 in the last 5 Finals (and the West's record against the East lottery teams, but those teams are irrelevant as they aren't playoff teams). But there are so many statistics, as pointed above, that suggest otherwise.

Pretty offense has gotten to everyone's head. The West is better offensively. But defensively it's the East. 10 of the top 15 teams in DefEff are in the East.

Like the Raptors, the defensive, 54-win 2004 Pistons were also taken to 7 games in the East semis (by the 47 win Nets), but those dudes manhandled the 61-win Pacers en route to the Finals. It wouldn't surprise me if the defensive, 56-win 2016 Raptors did the same to the 57-win Cavs. They are different than GS, OKC and Cle. With those teams, their offense leads to defense. With the Raptors, their defense leads to offense. They are both effective.

TL;DR? WE DO NOT KNOW WHO THE BETTER CONFERENCE IS. Last year it was the West. This year it's impossible to say. Don't let pretty offense fool you.

[Edrees]

Cavs in 6 most likely..., maybe in 5 as well. the good news for the raptors is that they aren't playing a game 1 at home so they actually have a shot at starting the series with a lead now

[Edrees]

What do you expect people to say? Its true. I think the raptors/miami series was really good. They're both at the same level.

one team gets the ECF spot by default. its a bad division.

I understand....the basketball isn't pretty. But what baffles me is the fact that nobody is crediting the Raptors, Pacers and Heat defense for the reason that the offenses struggled.

Let's look at facts, not just conjecture. The Raptors were 0-2 against Golden State, losing by margins of 3 and 5 points. They are 1-1 against San Antonio. They were 1-1 against Oklahoma City. They were 2-0 against the LA Clippers. They were 2-0 against Portland. They were 2-0 against Dallas. They were 2-0 against Memphis.

So, against the top 7 teams in the west, the Raptors went 10-4. 10-4 against this so called "superior" conference.

The argument against this is that "that was the regular season". But let's think about that. Regular season success translates to postseason success. When was the last time a 8th seed won the NBA Championship? 4th seed? Can't remember? Exactly. The teams that do extremely well in the regular season are the teams that will do well in the playoffs.

So, people can continuously say that the Eastern Conference is the weaker conference, but I BEG to differ, because they have little facts.

Thunder are 0-2 against Cavs, 1-1 against Raptors, 1-1 against Heat, 1-1 against Hawks, 1-1 against Celtics, 2-0 against Hornets, and 1-1 against Pacers.

My facts are this:
Raptors 10-4 against the West top 7. Thunder 7-7 against the East top 7.

My facts are also as I posted already:

Nice records. Congrats. What do any of that have to do with the fact that the cavs have the easiest path to the finals?

Cavs first round: 42 win Pistons
Warriors first rond: 41 win Rockets.
Pistons 2-0 against Rockets this season.

Cavs second round: 48 win Hawks
Warriors second round: 44 win Blazers
Hawks 2-0 against Blazers

Cavs third round: 56 win Raptors
Warriors third round: 55 win Thunder
Raptors 1-1 against Thunder.

Do I think Raptors are better than the Thunder? Maybe, maybe not. They are 3-3 head to head in the last three years. But there is absolutely no argument to suggest the West is definitely better than the East, other than LeBron being 2-3 in the last 5 Finals (and the West's record against the East lottery teams, but those teams are irrelevant as they aren't playoff teams). But there are so many statistics, as pointed above, that suggest otherwise.

Pretty offense has gotten to everyone's head. The West is better offensively. But defensively it's the East. 10 of the top 15 teams in DefEff are in the East.

Like the Raptors, the defensive, 54-win 2004 Pistons were also taken to 7 games in the East semis (by the 47 win Nets), but those dudes manhandled the 61-win Pacers en route to the Finals. It wouldn't surprise me if the defensive, 56-win 2016 Raptors did the same to the 57-win Cavs. They are different than GS, OKC and Cle. With those teams, their offense leads to defense. With the Raptors, their defense leads to offense. They are both effective.

TL;DR? WE DO NOT KNOW WHO THE BETTER CONFERENCE IS. Last year it was the West. This year it's impossible to say. Don't let pretty offense fool you.

West had a better record both among ALL teams and among the 4 playoff teams left, the west also has a winning record agianst the east.

warriors + OKC + spurs + Clippers record against east: 91-29

Raptors + Cavs + heat + hawks record against the west : 75-45

The above is pretty definitive to me. We're talking a (91-75/75) = 21.3% difference in how many wins the best teams in the west won over the east vs how many wins the best east teams won over the west.

east vs west overall record: 218-234

The west had both the better overall conference and the better record against the opposite among top 4 teams. The west is both better at the top and better overall. BASED ON WINS, which are NOT cherry picked like yours are. "Against top 7 teams" is a very absurd and cherry picked stat. I'm picking it simple, the teams that played in the ECSF and WCSF with the best 4 records in each conference, ie the teams that actually had some semblance of a chance of winning a title. Your top 7 argument just suggest that the middle pack of east teams is better than the middle pack of west teams, but I'd rather look at the BEST teams, or ALL the teams.

The east may have better defense overall, but the west is almost as good defensively. However the east is SO behind offensively so the overall gap ends up being huge.

[Birdie]

IDK, man. I get why you want to be cautious but it shouldn't be at the expense of your own belief in the Cavs capabilities.

Biyombo will have his hands full if Frye/Love is at the 5. I'm a little less confident in Love's ability to blaze, but I must admit every time Frye shoots an open 3 I think it's going in. He is a true dead-eye.

Drummond has regularly abused us even more than Biyombo, so it's not like we'll be facing something new.

Valanciunas being out is the only reason I see us winning in 5 (maybe 4). Toronto's depth will suffer from it, and when LBJ is running with our bench it'll put even more pressure on them.

Being from and living in Cleveland, I'll always have my concerns. But Toronto is the team with the uphill battle in this series, not the Cavs.

True, but I guess that Orlando series (along with all the their past Cleveland sports failures) have permanently scarred me.

The thing people don't understand about Cleveland sports is we don't just lose. No, that would be too easy. The sports gods have to first get our hopes up and make us think that we actually have a chance - to taste a championship and finally end the drought. And then...boom! In an instant it all comes crashing down and we're facing reality once again.

I'd compare it to when Lucy makes Charlie Brown think she's going to keep the football in place. He's running and running and he's almost there, but then she takes it away at the last second and he falls flat on his face. That's Cleveland sports in a nutshell. The Drive...the Fumble...the Move...the Shot...Red Right 88...the Decision...Game 7 of the 1997 World Series...and the Cavs' injuries last season... It just doesn't end. And now we have probably the best Cleveland sports team in our entire history, but it still might not be enough, because we'll have to eventually get through what might be the greatest NBA team of all time.

So I'm taking it one game at a time. I thought we'd get though Orlando no problem, so I'm not going to disregard the Raptors and look towards the Finals already.

Even with the GOAT series LeBron had his mismatches typically led to meeting Dwight at the rim while Dwight's led to Dunks and rebounds. Also the lack of 3pt shooting around LeBron did not help when he was dominating

In spite of that 66 win season, ORL's personnel was just a complete mismatch in that series top to bottom. Rashard Lewis/Turko were godlike and Pietrus made some huge plays. Looking back at the boxscore, you still had JJ Reddick/Gortat as your end of bench guy...lol...On paper, that was a very good team that just got steamrolled by LAL in Finals. And as mentioned, Cavs had no answer for Jameer/Dwight PnR action.

It's crazy how that roster was able to win 66 games that year but yet get completely exposed in the ECF. LBJ was the only one to show up in that series. Everyone else was completely useless.

[Statlanta]

Even with the GOAT series LeBron had his mismatches typically led to meeting Dwight at the rim while Dwight's led to Dunks and rebounds. Also the lack of 3pt shooting around LeBron did not help when he was dominating

In spite of that 66 win season, ORL's personnel was just a complete mismatch in that series top to bottom. Rashard Lewis/Turko were godlike and Pietrus made some huge plays. Looking back at the boxscore, you still had JJ Reddick/Gortat as your end of bench guy...lol...On paper, that was a very good team that just got steamrolled by LAL in Finals. And as mentioned, Cavs had no answer for Jameer/Dwight PnR action.

It's crazy how that roster was able to win 66 games that year but yet get completely exposed in the ECF. LBJ was the only one to show up in that series. Everyone else was completely useless.

Yup mismatches really come into play, it hurt us when we faced Boston/LA since our post defense was suspect. I have no doubt you would have fared better in the finals against less-athletic bigs and a guy who could match an older Kobe. I also believe you guys will do fine here as there is no clear matchup flaw that I see in this series

[tidho]

one team gets the ECF spot by default. its a bad division.

The funny thing is the West only has one more good team in it, lol. Four teams had a shot at the WCF (no one else would beat Cleveland or Toronto either btw), and one of those (Clippers) is basically the Atlanta Hawks in the playoffs.

Toronto is not getting nearly enough credit here. Mentioned earlier in the thread if JV can come back Cleveland might be in trouble. Lowry will get to the basket at will, and Cleveland doesn't adjust personal so JV's length will neutralize Thompson. Folks thinking Cleveland just rolls through this team are mistaken.

[Deadpool Raptor]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/OG_Mind/status/731961986041430016[/tweet]

It's funny because this picture is supposed to be a joke against the Cavs and especially LeBron, yet the Raptors won 56 games while the Thunder won 55. The Thunder are definitely better, but it's still comical how these overexaggerated narratives develop.

In fact, the Cavs have faced an opponent with a higher record in every single round compared to the Warriors, but let's keep making fun of how weak the East is.

Well the Raps have been playing historically bad and OKC have been kicking ass...

[Birdie]

Even with the GOAT series LeBron had his mismatches typically led to meeting Dwight at the rim while Dwight's led to Dunks and rebounds. Also the lack of 3pt shooting around LeBron did not help when he was dominating

In spite of that 66 win season, ORL's personnel was just a complete mismatch in that series top to bottom. Rashard Lewis/Turko were godlike and Pietrus made some huge plays. Looking back at the boxscore, you still had JJ Reddick/Gortat as your end of bench guy...lol...On paper, that was a very good team that just got steamrolled by LAL in Finals. And as mentioned, Cavs had no answer for Jameer/Dwight PnR action.

It's crazy how that roster was able to win 66 games that year but yet get completely exposed in the ECF. LBJ was the only one to show up in that series. Everyone else was completely useless.

Yup mismatches really come into play, it hurt us when we faced Boston/LA since our post defense was suspect. I have no doubt you would have fared better in the finals against less-athletic bigs and a guy who could match an older Kobe. I also believe you guys will do fine here as there is no clear matchup flaw that I see in this series

Agreed. Prime DHoward was just ridiculous against us thus why we do the panic move for Shaq the following year in response thinking we'll see him again. Cavs biggest flaw was no only interior presence but we had no shooters to relieve pressure for LBJ. That was always the downfall in that 1st Cavs run. LBJ needed snipers who weren't completely useless on the defensive end. Very few of those existed or exist in the past/current NBA tho. Very rare.

But at the moment, I think it's the best collection of parts LBJ has ever had. We skew a bit more offensive than I'd like because admittedly, I don't ever seeing Kyrie/Love becoming good defenders but I think they've SLOWLY improved where they can be adequate.

Not to be cocky and the know it all, blah blah typical RealGM blinded troll but I just have a good feeling about this team. They clicked at the right time. The matchups have been favorable and overall, the gameplan has been sound.

DET series: take away Dre/RJ PnR offense, let bad shooters shoot (this almost killed us but you gotta live with something)

ATL series: Take away Kyle Korver, let bad shooters shoot (again, almost killed us but 9/10, you let Schroeder/Thabo/Humphries jack up shots as opposed to Korver/Horford/Milsap/Teague)

While I'm not leaving TOR for dead, I just haven't seen anything from them thus far in 14 games where anything they do will catch the Cavs off guard nor they won't have an adjustment for it. In the end, TOR got bailed out by facing bad bench play from IND/MIA which allowed them to eek it out. In all fairness, TOR should've won in 5-6 as opposed to letting them go 7.

We'll see. We've been off too long, ready to watch some CLE bball again.

[KnightofHyrule]

West had a better record both among ALL teams and among the 4 playoff teams left, the west also has a winning record agianst the east.

warriors + OKC + spurs + Clippers record against east: 91-29

Raptors + Cavs + heat + hawks record against the west : 75-45

The above is pretty definitive to me. We're talking a (91-75/75) = 21.3% difference in how many wins the best teams in the west won over the east vs how many wins the best east teams won over the west.

east vs west overall record: 218-234

The west had both the better overall conference and the better record against the opposite among top 4 teams. The west is both better at the top and better overall. BASED ON WINS, which are NOT cherry picked like yours are. "Against top 7 teams" is a very absurd and cherry picked stat. I'm picking it simple, the teams that played in the ECSF and WCSF with the best 4 records in each conference, ie the teams that actually had some semblance of a chance of winning a title. Your top 7 argument just suggest that the middle pack of east teams is better than the middle pack of west teams, but I'd rather look at the BEST teams, or ALL the teams.

The east may have better defense overall, but the west is almost as good defensively. However the east is SO behind offensively so the overall gap ends up being huge.

Good points...for the most part. I glanced over the fact that the East lottery teams are abysmal, which could lead to better regular season records for the top East teams.

It could be those horrible teams that have lead to the East having 8 of the top 12 best records in the league. But 234-218 is a difference of only 16 games. Not a huge gap.

Also, the defensive gap isn't close to being "almost as good".

Out of all playoffs teams, Portland, Dallas, Memphis, and Houston are in the bottom half of the league defensively. Not one East playoff team is in the bottom half.

Atlanta and Indiana are the only East playoff teams in the bottom half of the league offensively. But Memphis is down there as well.

It can be argued that the only reason San Antonio and OKC have such pretty offenses is because they play in a weak defensive conference.

I am not saying that the East is a better conference. I still slightly lean to the West. I am saying that the mindset of the West being "far superior" and the East "sux" is simply because fans and critics love offense. It's more fun to watch, but it hardly means the West is "far superior".

[Meeksology]

Il get through the next 4 months just fine. Your offseason isn't too far away either (4 more games to be exact) let's not be delusional.

If anything I'd be scared str8 at Raps offseason. Derozan Max incoming lol. It's no secret 90% of the Raps board doesn't even want him back. Yet somehow they are the "second best backcourt" FOH with that trollish nonsense.

Your own fan base hates him. That tells me all I need to know.

Add in other teams fan bases like the lakers are praying their FO isn't dumb enough to sign this guy. I've gone on record to say if Derozan is in a heat uniform I would stop following the heat instantly lol.

Enjoy what's left of your season. Winter is coming. This will be as good as it gets for the raps imo. Took them awhile and they needed key injuries and for the heat to be down more than half their salary cap to get there but they did it!

Who has said our whole fan base hates him? You are making the assumption that a group of the people on realgm is our whole fanbase. Kinda foolish if you ask me.

Winter is coming? dumbass summer is coming and we are still in the playoffs. You mention the Injuries to Miami but forget that all year toronto battled injuries as well and still ended up second in the east and beat you in the playoffs.. If you can't make a point without ignoring the other side of the discussion you might as well stop because no one is going to listen to you ramble because you come across as a homer.

You didn't actually think I meant winter was coming as in actually winter lol it's just a saying from GOT's. End is near bud.

Injuries to over paid role players like Carrol and JV during the regular season cannot compare to losing franchise superstars like Bosh and Hassan. And losing an all time great like Lebron as well. I'd say we did just fine everything considered.

Like I said, enjoy the last 4 to 5 games left in the season. Enjoy the taste of the ECF. Enjoy hating on Derozan on the reasonable contract that he is on, cuz soon that's gonna be super max 30% SG.

Take it all in. Never know how long it could take to make it back to this stage.

Go out and get some fresh air fam. Stop getting salty over peoples comments on the Internet. Let fans enjoy their team while u go enjoy Miami life.

[whysoserious]

Who has said our whole fan base hates him? You are making the assumption that a group of the people on realgm is our whole fanbase. Kinda foolish if you ask me.

Winter is coming? dumbass summer is coming and we are still in the playoffs. You mention the Injuries to Miami but forget that all year toronto battled injuries as well and still ended up second in the east and beat you in the playoffs.. If you can't make a point without ignoring the other side of the discussion you might as well stop because no one is going to listen to you ramble because you come across as a homer.

You didn't actually think I meant winter was coming as in actually winter lol it's just a saying from GOT's. End is near bud.

Injuries to over paid role players like Carrol and JV during the regular season cannot compare to losing franchise superstars like Bosh and Hassan. And losing an all time great like Lebron as well. I'd say we did just fine everything considered.

Like I said, enjoy the last 4 to 5 games left in the season. Enjoy the taste of the ECF. Enjoy hating on Derozan on the reasonable contract that he is on, cuz soon that's gonna be super max 30% SG.

Take it all in. Never know how long it could take to make it back to this stage.

Looks like someones real salty after all that money they lost betting on the Heat to win all those games and the series.

[whysoserious]

The Cavs are the superior team, they were during the regular season but we were able to beat them 2 out of 3 games. However they had some injuries in a couple of games if i remember. Still, they were the 1 seed and since the playoffs started they've taken their game to another level. For the Raptors to have any chance they need to slow the game to a complete crawl and muck it up, then hope the Cavs aren't so hot from the outside.

Still, the Cavs have the best player in the series and 3 of the top 5 players in the series. The rest can work in their favour or it could hurt them for game 1. Hard to predict. I'm thinking it doesn't hurt them as much. Lebron seems on a mission and unlike last year has his two stars with him to help get a title for Cleveland.

We'll see how it all plays out. Cleveland could sweep but that's not a reflection of the Raptors, more how good the Cavs are right now. And the Raptors are way better poised to give the Cavs a fight than the Heat were. Small Ball would have completely killed the Heat in this round had they survived.