Official Rap/Hip Hop Thread IV

Phish Tank · Post #1141 » by **Phish Tank** » Tue May 24, 2016 4:37 pm

Mixtape Fabolous had some of the slickest rhymes.

One example:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OedVvbl-izA[/youtube]

Hanging out with the Roc-A-Fella crew solidified his lyrical ability back then. The only mistake cats like him, Joe Budden, & Cassidy made was going commercial early on in their careers. All four of them were slick lyricists during the mixtape days. For Budden & Cassidy, those commercial albums kinda hurt their careers a bit.

It didn't hurt Fab much, but it also helped that he had good relationships with Jay, Clue, Diddy, and others.

Knicksfan1992 · Post #1142 » by **Knicksfan1992** » Tue May 24, 2016 4:44 pm

Fab's been one of my favorites. He had a lot of influence on the mainstream dudes of today. You can hear a lot of Fab in early Drake.

Mecca · Post #1143 » by **Mecca** » Tue May 24, 2016 4:48 pm

IllmaticHandler wrote:Its not about age as much as its about reasoning ability these days. People don't want to admit it, but the youth are dumbed down a lot compared to just 15 years ago. IQ levels are dropping drastically. Its why most people only want to party nowadays. They are contaminating Black Neighborhoods with lead in the water which stunts learning and processing ability ALOT. There are all kinds of environmental factors here why rhyming has become so basic, or even nothing but mumbling on face value.

Where in a time where a NAS rhyme on Illmatic would be to much to comprehend for mad youth. Look at Athletes today compared to the 90's... Most can't even talk with any Ability. You would never see a 90's athlete as poor a speaker as these cats these days. You have to remember that cats like Rakim, Biggie, Nas, Prodigy and mad others were TEENAGERS when they Blew up. They were the same ages as these cats but with MUCH HIGHER intellect. They did not give a **** about school just like the youth today, but they still had high IQ's.

Migos, Chief Keef and Songs like Panda are showing how America is becoming dumb. We in an era where Music that is not even audible really is rulling the air ways. Its not simple cause its modern, its simple cause in many ways cats lack the ability to be complex

Look at Rihanna Song Work. Its a poorly written song, yet it was number one. 15 years ago, a song that poorly written would never be such a huge smash. Its the same reason why as popular as Kendrick Lamar is, all the accolades he gets, he not rulling the radio. Its to much for the average listener. There was a time when the average listener was able to breakdown lyrics of that type of skill set.

Its more than it Just being a modern style(simplicity)...its also about how cats are becoming dumber. The rapper and the Fan.

Most youth don't like older hip hop, not cause its dated, but because of the mental capacity to even understand what they are saying, they lack. AT 17 I understood Nas. For Many of todays youth they can't comprehend the lyrics like that. Its that simple, and that Real.

I live in Brownsville BK. I am around this everyday.

Quoting this because I respect the **** outta this post and agree. Hip-hop didn't die, the fans did. Critical thinking in hip-hop has become a lost art in the mainstream. There are PLENTY of dudes that are still snapping. That's NOT the issue.

j4remi wrote:Simplified rhyme schemes and short bars limit what an emcee can honestly get away with. It's incredibly difficult to lace even 16 bars without a forced rhyme or reaching; technically the goal is to come off as naturally as possible with the language. Short bars and rapid flows make that damn near impossible. You can't sound natural, but you can still use conventions and tricks to make your verse hit on different levels. The rapid flow cats do a lot of imagery ish that lets them get away with what old school considered reaches.

That Panda track, I actually like every stop and go before the Oscar to Grammy bar more. Sellin' bars, Candy...clear double entendre; Pockets swole, Danny...hated it until I heard that it's a callback to another of his songs; I'm Macho like Randy...clear simile; Then you got the choppa goes Oscar for Grammy...It's a clever wordplay but the surface context is lacking a bit. So that's four lyrical techniques though. Double entendre, a callback for his fans, Simile, Category Wordplay...all squeezed into four short bars. It's impressive enough to give a pass on the simple scheme and I don't mind that it doesn't read naturally in the context of the delivery.

Migos are the absolute best at this stuff. They manage to sneak stories and images into that short bar format that few if any other emcees have managed to do. But then some really corny ish stands out more because the simplified rhymes make the bad bars stand out. One of 'em on Finesser starts a verse with an "on a hill like jack and jill" bar which is so lame you'll risk missing an actual story he tells in the next few bars because you eye rolled and shut down on it. It's a rapid fire, mini story about a kid who was so hungry for money he tried to scam the drug game and got killed...I felt it, I like the verse, but I can't play that damned song without cats cutting it off before we get to a payoff in lyricism.

Straight up, I don't think you can make a strong concept track with that style. But I don't think you can make a radio friendly super hit with overly complicated concepts and writing (Jay-Z with the "Truthfully I wanna rhyme like Common Sense...but I did 5 mil...I ain't been rhymin' like Common Sense). This ish has been a pretty common belief throughout eras; you can be lyrical or you can sell big...but achieving both is damn near impossible.

Quoting this post as well because I agree whole heartedly with remi. Budden's last project had all 16-32 bar verses and no one wanted to hear it.

Mecca · Post #1144 » by **Mecca** » Tue May 24, 2016 4:52 pm

Getting back on track, it's been a stellar year for hip-hop. Jay Elect SNAPPED on his verse.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGtLgqdartQ[/youtube]

This boy Paak gonna be someone special as well

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJBB3q0MDPQ&list=PLkLZNGcjKAQ_T6e9HD9YRiUcE85vouttE&index=10[/youtube]

Let Goldlink soundtrack your summer

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya4jsYQAne0[/youtube]

And a little grit to start your day off right. Rock and Q crazy together.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV3GI4JJ2AQ[/youtube]

IllmaticHandler · Post #1145 » by **IllmaticHandler** » Tue May 24, 2016 4:53 pm

I love how people keep mentioning that they had TO READ the lyrics to make sense of them. Y'all prasing backwards ****. So after you READ them, now you think they dope? :-?

It does not change the fact to comprehend the lyrics of the song in every way, that you had to READ, or wait for the dude to come out with a lyric video. The whole point of him reading it, is the fact that its NOT audible from the jump. What rapper should have to be explaining what he is saying in a song OTHER than its philosophical meaning. The dude is Explaining what he is SAYING. :noway:

Thats NOT a good look AT ALL.

Very little of what he saying is audible from a Listening stand point. Its an extreme struggle to make sense from the NATURAL way to decipher Music.... which to HEAR it.

People that defend **** like that don't love hip hop and respect the essence...they just listen to it.

No other art form can be SO WATERED DOWN but successful as Hip Hop. This nonsense could not go in any genre of music the way it happens in Hip Hop. Where at the point where the REAL Talent on the mic won't ever be able to really dominate. The better you are, the LESS fans you have.

Anybody can make a so called witty line. **** I bet I can find some witty **** said by Trinidad James. Its not about a person being witty, but HOW MUCH WIT YOU HAVE. Some of the WACKEST and weakest rappers I ever heard, have said FLY LINES to me. It don't make their overall body of work of any High Value or Ability

So much young talent will never be as big as they could be, only because they actually spit bars, that are clear and have substance from the Jump.

IllmaticHandler · Post #1146 » by **IllmaticHandler** » Tue May 24, 2016 4:59 pm

CozZ Should be bigger than MAD of these cats...but cause he has mad Depth....dude is not Known. Weak Chicago Mixtape Rappers are more Known than him, and he signed with J COLE...smh

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8Dg6qj8L3M[/youtube]

Mecca · Post #1147 » by **Mecca** » Tue May 24, 2016 5:01 pm

IllmaticHandler wrote:I love how people keep mentioning that they had TO READ the lyrics to make sense of them. Y'all prasing backwards ****. So after you READ them, now you think they dope?

It does not change the fact to comprehend the lyrics of the song in every way, that you had to READ, or wait for the dude to come out with a lyric video. The whole point of him reading it, is the fact that its NOT audible from the jump. What rapper should have to be explaining what he is saying in a song OTHER than its philosophical meaning. The dude is Explaining what he is SAYING. Thats NOT a good look AT ALL.

Very little of what he saying is audible from a Listening stand point. Its an extreme struggle to make sense from the NATURAL way to decipher Music.... which to HEAR it.

People that defend **** like that don't love hip hop and respect the essence...they just listen to it.

No other art form can be SO WATERED DOWN but successful as Hip Hop. This nonsense could not go in any genre of music the way it happens in Hip Hop. Where at the point where the REAL Talent on the mic won't ever be able to really dominate. The better you are, the LESS fans you have.

Anybody can make a so called witty line. **** I bet I can find some witty **** said by Trinidad James. Its not about a person being witty, but HOW MUCH WIT YOU HAVE. Some of the WACKEST and weakest rappers I ever heard, have said FLY LINES to me. It don't make their overall body of work of any High Value or Ability

So much young talent will never be as big as they could be, only because they actually spit bars, that are clear and have substance from the Jump.

Exactly. Desiigner can't paint a picture with his words or make you feel a connection with his music. A dude like Cole is kinda flat with his bars skill wise, but can paint a picture beautifully.. a dude like Ab-Soul or Mick Jenkins use their wit to explain the meaning of their song, almost opening your mind and making you laugh. Someone like Vince got so much grit in their bars you feel the struggle and strength.

Mecca · Post #1148 » by **Mecca** » Tue May 24, 2016 5:03 pm

IllmaticHandler wrote:CozZ Should be bigger than MAD of these cats...but cause he has mad Depth....dude is not Known. Weak Chicago Mixtape Rappers are more Known than him, and he signed with J COLE...smh

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8Dg6qj8L3M[/youtube]

Cozz realy nice.. young and hungry. I think his skill needs fine tuning though. His bars are hit or miss.. He do say some nice **** though.. if you heard his last mixtape he dropped some lines.. 'Cozz be after the Bills like Cosby'

Bas has an AOTY contender for hip-hop IMO. If you don't count Chance as an album, I'd say it's between him, Kendrick's Untitled, and Pusha for AOTY.

Mecca · Post #1149 » by **Mecca** » Tue May 24, 2016 5:08 pm

This cat might be my favorite right now. gangster conscious, gritty, witty, innovative, funny as hell in real life. Please follow him on twitter.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVzw9tvIO0I[/youtube]

If you tell me Folarin can't spit (greenie) you aren't educated.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoZebsLQHw8[/youtube]

Knicksfan1992 · Post #1150 » by **Knicksfan1992** » Tue May 24, 2016 5:11 pm

IllmaticHandler wrote:CozZ Should be bigger than MAD of these cats...but cause he has mad Depth....dude is not Known. Weak Chicago Mixtape Rappers are more Known than him, and he signed with J COLE...smh

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8Dg6qj8L3M[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7d42LJfkqQ[/youtube]

You hear the difference between him and Cole on this joint here though. Cole is way more polished flow-wise. Cozz ain't smooth enough to get mega play. His chit sounds disjointed. Respect his bars but, he has a lot of work to do.

Post #1151 » by **j4remi** » Tue May 24, 2016 5:25 pm

IllmaticHandler wrote:I love how people keep mentioning that they had TO READ the lyrics to make sense of them. Y'all prasing backwards ****. So after you READ them, now you think they dope?

It does not change the fact to comprehend the lyrics of the song in every way, that you had to READ, or wait for the dude to come out with a lyric video. The whole point of him reading it, is the fact that its NOT audible from the jump. What rapper should have to be explaining what he is saying in a song OTHER than its philosophical meaning. The dude is Explaining what he is SAYING. Thats NOT a good look AT ALL.

Very little of what he saying is audible from a Listening stand point. Its an extreme struggle to make sense from the NATURAL way to decipher Music.... which to HEAR it.

People that defend **** like that don't love hip hop and respect the essence...they just listen to it.

No other art form can be SO WATERED DOWN but successful as Hip Hop. This nonsense could not go in any genre of music the way it happens in Hip Hop. Where at the point where the REAL Talent on the mic won't ever be able to really dominate. The better you are, the LESS fans you have.

Anybody can make a so called witty line. **** I bet I can find some witty **** said by Trinidad James. Its not about a person being witty, but HOW MUCH WIT YOU HAVE. Some of the WACKEST and weakest rappers I ever heard, have said FLY LINES to me. It don't make their overall body of work of any High Value or Ability

So much young talent will never be as big as they could be, only because they actually spit bars, that are clear and have substance from the Jump.

ehhh issues with delivery and issues with lyricism should be separated imo. The fact that dude doesn't enunciate is a valid complaint and when he has to explain lyrics meanings for you to understand them, that's obviously a problem. But those are two separate issues. Plus, double time rappers and super complex heads like Lupe usually could do with a lyrics sheet. Lupe never forces anything, but he's got so many double and triple entendres, running themes and allegories that reading his words can change a verse or song. Dumb It Down is my favorite example of that ish.

IllmaticHandler · Post #1152 » by **IllmaticHandler** » Tue May 24, 2016 5:27 pm

Mecca wrote:
IllmaticHandler wrote:CozZ Should be bigger than MAD of these cats...but cause he has mad Depth....dude is not Known. Weak Chicago Mixtape Rappers are more Known than him, and he signed with J COLE...smh

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8Dg6qj8L3M[/youtube]

Cozz realy nice.. young and hungry. I think his skill needs fine tuning though. His bars are hit or miss.. He do say some nice **** though.. if you heard his last mixtape he dropped some lines.. 'Cozz be after the Bills like Cosby'

Bas has an AOTY contender for hip-hop IMO. If you don't count Chance as an album, I'd say it's between him, Kendrick's Untitled, and Pusha for AOTY.

If he need fine tuning, what does lil herb need lol

Mecca · Post #1153 » by **Mecca** » Tue May 24, 2016 5:33 pm

IllmaticHandler wrote:
Mecca wrote:
IllmaticHandler wrote:CozZ Should be bigger than MAD of these cats...but cause he has mad Depth....dude is not Known. Weak Chicago Mixtape Rappers are more Known than him, and he signed with J COLE...smh

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8Dg6qj8L3M[/youtube]

Cozz realy nice.. young and hungry. I think his skill needs fine tuning though. His bars are hit or miss.. He do say some nice **** though.. if you heard his last mixtape he dropped some lines.. 'Cozz be after the Bills like Cosby'

Bas has an AOTY contender for hip-hop IMO. If you don't count Chance as an album, I'd say it's between him, Kendrick's Untitled, and Pusha for AOTY.

If he need fine tuning, what does lil herb need lol

Cozz flow need work a bit. So does TDE's president Punch. Both got bars just need fine tuning. And Herb real raw.. I don't think Herb that talented though. Joey threw him around on that Metro beat they shared.

IllmaticHandler · Post #1154 » by **IllmaticHandler** » Tue May 24, 2016 5:45 pm

j4remi wrote:
IllmaticHandler wrote:I love how people keep mentioning that they had TO READ the lyrics to make sense of them. Y'all prasing backwards ****. So after you READ them, now you think they dope?

It does not change the fact to comprehend the lyrics of the song in every way, that you had to READ, or wait for the dude to come out with a lyric video. The whole point of him reading it, is the fact that its NOT audible from the jump. What rapper should have to be explaining what he is saying in a song OTHER than its philosophical meaning. The dude is Explaining what he is SAYING. Thats NOT a good look AT ALL.

Very little of what he saying is audible from a Listening stand point. Its an extreme struggle to make sense from the NATURAL way to decipher Music.... which to HEAR it.

People that defend **** like that don't love hip hop and respect the essence...they just listen to it.

No other art form can be SO WATERED DOWN but successful as Hip Hop. This nonsense could not go in any genre of music the way it happens in Hip Hop. Where at the point where the REAL Talent on the mic won't ever be able to really dominate. The better you are, the LESS fans you have.

Anybody can make a so called witty line. **** I bet I can find some witty **** said by Trinidad James. Its not about a person being witty, but HOW MUCH WIT YOU HAVE. Some of the WACKEST and weakest rappers I ever heard, have said FLY LINES to me. It don't make their overall body of work of any High Value or Ability

So much young talent will never be as big as they could be, only because they actually spit bars, that are clear and have substance from the Jump.

ehhh issues with delivery and issues with lyricism should be separated imo. The fact that dude doesn't enunciate is a valid complaint and when he has to explain lyrics meanings for you to understand them, that's obviously a problem. But those are two separate issues. Plus, double time rappers and super complex heads like Lupe usually could do with a lyrics sheet. Lupe never forces anything, but he's got so many double and triple entendres, running themes and allegories that reading his words can change a verse or song. Dumb It Down is my favorite example of that ish.

You keep talking about complexity but its not about that. Look at it like this. Joey badass is by no means a complex rapper. There is no reason why other youth would not like him, but he is hardly known to the Hood. He is not even remotely marketed to his OWN Community. I could run around flatbush right now and a bunch of people would have never heard of him, but they know about x,y,z from somewhere else. Here we have a young NY MC, that avery Large portion of NYC youth don't even care or know about. The majority of whats keeping joey badass with a decent name are white fans. Those are the one who crowd his shows. Its really not even about cats who have complexity. Its simple above average ability, and its not even respected or marketed/Pushed to the fans. Panda can get on the Radio, but a Young Rapper like Joey CANT.

Joey does not have to care, but even he knows, that by remaining TRUER to the game, he won't be as successful as others who are the SAME AGE as him. Thats not how hip hop is supposed to go. No MC from any area should be penalized cause he has real skill.

Look at currency. DOPE MC. Dude is from the SOUTH. You know the region that is spitting out "stars" over night?

yet he could never ever achieve what those around him could or can only because he valued having much more depth to his music. Oj the Juice man type rappers will get more love than him. Its no.t about complexity...its about a BUNCH of stuff. A lot has to do with PROGRAMING.

Currency is NOT complex by any means, he spits simple stories of being from the south, but with much more value, and for that he suffers successfully. Radio and the likes have NO love. A mumbling or weak skill artist that nobody can understand gets the Radio.

Big Sean could not stand in NO cipher and hang, but yet he like top five name in the game.

Its not about complexity as much as it skill. Skill is everything. Fife Dawg was not complex, but his SKILL is Highly evident in able to communicate.

The Skill is being Kept from the masses and were being fed Garbage.

I don't care that Designer is from my OWN Boro. The dude is TRASH.

Mecca · Post #1155 » by **Mecca** » Tue May 24, 2016 6:09 pm

IllmaticHandler wrote:
j4remi wrote:
IllmaticHandler wrote:I love how people keep mentioning that they had TO READ the lyrics to make sense of them. Y'all prasing backwards ****. So after you READ them, now you think they dope?

It does not change the fact to comprehend the lyrics of the song in every way, that you had to READ, or wait for the dude to come out with a lyric video. The whole point of him reading it, is the fact that its NOT audible from the jump. What rapper should have to be explaining what he is saying in a song OTHER than its philosophical meaning. The dude is Explaining what he is SAYING. Thats NOT a good look AT ALL.

Very little of what he saying is audible from a Listening stand point. Its an extreme struggle to make sense from the NATURAL way to decipher Music.... which to HEAR it.

People that defend **** like that don't love hip hop and respect the essence...they just listen to it.

No other art form can be SO WATERED DOWN but successful as Hip Hop. This nonsense could not go in any genre of music the way it happens in Hip Hop. Where at the point where the REAL Talent on the mic won't ever be able to really dominate. The better you are, the LESS fans you have.

Anybody can make a so called witty line. **** I bet I can find some witty **** said by Trinidad James. Its not about a person being witty, but HOW MUCH WIT YOU HAVE. Some of the WACKEST and weakest rappers I ever heard, have said FLY LINES to me. It don't make their overall body of work of any High Value or Ability

So much young talent will never be as big as they could be, only because they actually spit bars, that are clear and have substance from the Jump.

ehhh issues with delivery and issues with lyricism should be separated imo. The fact that dude doesn't enunciate is a valid complaint and when he has to explain lyrics meanings for you to understand them, that's obviously a problem. But those are two separate issues. Plus, double time rappers and super complex heads like Lupe usually could do with a lyrics sheet. Lupe never forces anything, but he's got so many double and triple entendres, running themes and allegories that reading his words can change a verse or song. Dumb It Down is my favorite example of that ish.

You keep talking about complexity but its not about that. Look at it like this. Joey badass is by no means a complex rapper. There is no reason why other youth would not like him, but he is hardly known to the Hood. He is not even remotely marketed to his OWN Community. I could run around flatbush right now and a bunch of people would have never heard of him, but they know about x,y,z from somewhere else. Here we have a young NY MC, that avery Large portion of NYC youth don't even care or know about. The majority of whats keeping joey badass with a decent name are white fans. Those are the one who crowd his shows. Its really not even about cats who have complexity. Its simple above average ability, and its not even respected or marketed/Pushed to the fans. Panda can get on the Radio, but a Young Rapper like Joey CANT.

Joey does not have to care, but even he knows, that by remaining TRUER to the game, he won't be as successful as others who are the SAME AGE as him. Thats not how hip hop is supposed to go. No MC from any area should be penalized cause he has real skill.

Look at currency. DOPE MC. Dude is from the SOUTH. You know the region that is spitting out "stars" over night?

yet he could never ever achieve what those around him could or can only because he valued having much more depth to his music. Oj the Juice man type rappers will get more love than him. Its no.t about complexity...its about a BUNCH of stuff. A lot has to do with PROGRAMING.

Currency is NOT complex by any means, he spits simple stories of being from the south, but with much more value, and for that he suffers successfully. Radio and the likes have NO love. A mumbling or weak skill artist that nobody can understand gets the Radio.

Big Sean could not stand in NO cipher and hang, but yet he like top five name in the game.

Its not about complexity as much as it skill. Skill is everything. Fife Dawg was not complex, but his SKILL is Highly evident in able to communicate.

The Skill is being Kept from the masses and were being fed Garbage.

I don't care that Designer is from my OWN Boro. The dude is TRASH.

Well, I can speak for my generation, considering I'm 22 years old, brought up in Staten Island, but hang around East Orange/Newark/Linden Jersey a lot. The reason why Joey isn't receiving praise is because the streets have dubbed lyricists or conscious rappers as 'corny.' Lyrical hip-hop isn't really loved in the streets anymore. Future, Thugger, Drake, Uzi Vert, and Kodak Black are the biggest names in the streets these days. Y'all gotta see how they do Cole/Wale/Joey on twitter. By far those are the 3 most hated artists on social media.

They don't want to critically think or pay pristine attention, they want to feel music.

It's really sad, but it's our generation.

Mecca · Post #1156 » by **Mecca** » Tue May 24, 2016 6:14 pm

If anyone is interested, I'm trying to release a book this summer. I'm about 100 pages deep now. The first half uses Pac as a symbol for oppression/brutality and the cave allegory theory. Using his interviews/lyrics as sources. The second half uses Kdot, Cole, Wale as the modern day messengers of our society. From our addiction to materialism, the system, ego... a lot of philosophy in it. Really think HipHop will be studied like Shakespeare is now in 100 years and tryna be a pioneer in the industry. There's a lot of knowledge in it, and I've put in over 100 hours already on it. If anyone's interested in reading a page or two or thinks it has potential to flourish in the open market, let me know your thoughts.

Post #1157 » by **j4remi** » Tue May 24, 2016 6:23 pm

IllmaticHandler wrote:You keep talking about complexity but its not about that. Look at it like this. Joey badass is by no means a complex rapper. There is no reason why other youth would not like him, but he is hardly known to the Hood. He is not even remotely marketed to his OWN Community. I could run around flatbush right now and a bunch of people would have never heard of him, but they know about x,y,z from somewhere else. Here we have a young NY MC, that avery Large portion of NYC youth don't even care or know about. The majority of whats keeping joey badass with a decent name are white fans. Those are the one who crowd his shows. Its really not even about cats who have complexity. Its simple above average ability, and its not even respected or marketed/Pushed to the fans. Panda can get on the Radio, but a Young Rapper like Joey CANT.

Joey does not have to care, but even he knows, that by remaining TRUER to the game, he won't be as successful as others who are the SAME AGE as him. Thats not how hip hop is supposed to go. No MC from any area should be penalized cause he has real skill.

Look at currency. DOPE MC. Dude is from the SOUTH. You know the region that is spitting out "stars" over night?

yet he could never ever achieve what those around him could or can only because he valued having much more depth to his music. Oj the Juice man type rappers will get more love than him. Its no.t about complexity...its about a BUNCH of stuff. A lot has to do with PROGRAMING.

Currency is NOT complex by any means, he spits simple stories of being from the south, but with much more value, and for that he suffers successfully. Radio and the likes have NO love. A mumbling or weak skill artist that nobody can understand gets the Radio.

Big Sean could not stand in NO cipher and hang, but yet he like top five name in the game.

Its not about complexity as much as it skill. Skill is everything. Fife Dawg was not complex, but his SKILL is Highly evident in able to communicate.

The Skill is being Kept from the masses and were being fed Garbage.

I don't care that Designer is from my OWN Boro. The dude is TRASH.

I think we're having two different debates here.
1. I don't think complexity is what's keeping rappers off of the radio. We agree there. That point falls back to a discussion in the Drake thread where I mentioned that simplicity doesn't equate to wack and complexity doesn't equate to quality so I don't wanna retype it. But just to clarify, we agree on this. There's definitely an issue with what emcees get marketed imo; the algorithm generation of music has limited what music is being marketed and I think that's the biggest hole in the game right now. These cats never get the chance at spins because their music doesn't fit the formula (and that's no conspiracy theory, ish is documented in a chapter of the Power of Habit).

2. You said "I love how people keep mentioning that they had TO READ the lyrics to make sense of them" and that's what I was addressing above. A lot of people have TO READ Lupe lyrics due to complexity and it's not necessarily a bad thing or a slight imo. A lot of people have TO READ a Twista verse to follow, but that's not a bad thing to me.

Skill is a nice way to jump from Lyrics to the all around, since a lot factors into what makes a great rapper. Guru is one of my all time favorites and his style skewed simplistic but his skill was unquestionable. That Designer cat has a serious issue with his muffled delivery, but lyrically he's trying to use real conventions, they just get completely tucked away by mumbled bars. If he enunciated would he suddenly be a top lyricist? Hell no, but the lyrics themselves aren't close to the biggest issue he has. He's actually trying wordplay and tricks, he's not the best at it but he's far from the worst in his lane(which you could say is due to low hanging fruit since most trap rappers are horrendous lyrically imo). I'd say the biggest missing piece for his is purely delivery, he needs to fix that first and foremost. I can at least appreciate that he's attempting and sometimes succeeding at dressing his bars up with punches and wordplay, that's more than I can say for a lot of next gen cats.

Post #1158 » by **j4remi** » Tue May 24, 2016 6:25 pm

Mecca wrote:If anyone is interested, I'm trying to release a book this summer. I'm about 100 pages deep now. The first half uses Pac as a symbol for oppression/brutality and the cave allegory theory. Using his interviews/lyrics as sources. The second half uses Kdot, Cole, Wale as the modern day messengers of our society. From our addiction to materialism, the system, ego... a lot of philosophy in it. Really think HipHop will be studied like Shakespeare is now in 100 years and tryna be a pioneer in the industry. There's a lot of knowledge in it, and I've put in over 100 hours already on it. If anyone's interested in reading a page or two or thinks it has potential to flourish in the open market, let me know your thoughts.

I really like this concept a lot fam, would love to support when you release it.

Mecca · Post #1159 » by **Mecca** » Tue May 24, 2016 6:28 pm

j4remi wrote:
Mecca wrote:If anyone is interested, I'm trying to release a book this summer. I'm about 100 pages deep now. The first half uses Pac as a symbol for oppression/brutality and the cave allegory theory. Using his interviews/lyrics as sources. The second half uses Kdot, Cole, Wale as the modern day messengers of our society. From our addiction to materialism, the system, ego... a lot of philosophy in it. Really think HipHop will be studied like Shakespeare is now in 100 years and tryna be a pioneer in the industry. There's a lot of knowledge in it, and I've put in over 100 hours already on it. If anyone's interested in reading a page or two or thinks it has potential to flourish in the open market, let me know your thoughts.

I really like this concept a lot fam, would love to support when you release it.

Thank you fam. Respect that a lot coming from you. I learned a lot from your hip-hop knowledge when I was growing up on these boards. I actually got in touch with Wale about it, and he told me he was speechless over what I had written about him. So I'ma see if he promo me on his instagram/twitter as I got a second interview as an intern on his label EBM. That's the plan at least.

Knicksfan1992 · Post #1160 » by **Knicksfan1992** » Tue May 24, 2016 6:40 pm

Mecca wrote:
IllmaticHandler wrote:
j4remi wrote:
ehhh issues with delivery and issues with lyricism should be separated imo. The fact that dude doesn't enunciate is a valid complaint and when he has to explain lyrics meanings for you to understand them, that's obviously a problem. But those are two separate issues. Plus, double time rappers and super complex heads like Lupe usually could do with a lyrics sheet. Lupe never forces anything, but he's got so many double and triple entendres, running themes and allegories that reading his words can change a verse or song. Dumb It Down is my favorite example of that ish.

You keep talking about complexity but its not about that. Look at it like this. Joey badass is by no means a complex rapper. There is no reason why other youth would not like him, but he is hardly known to the Hood. He is not even remotely marketed to his OWN Community. I could run around flatbush right now and a bunch of people would have never heard of him, but they know about x,y,z from somewhere else. Here we have a young NY MC, that avery Large portion of NYC youth don't even care or know about. The majority of whats keeping joey badass with a decent name are white fans. Those are the one who crowd his shows. Its really not even about cats who have complexity. Its simple above average ability, and its not even respected or marketed/Pushed to the fans. Panda can get on the Radio, but a Young Rapper like Joey CANT.

Joey does not have to care, but even he knows, that by remaining TRUER to the game, he won't be as successful as others who are the SAME AGE as him. Thats not how hip hop is supposed to go. No MC from any area should be penalized cause he has real skill.

Look at currency. DOPE MC. Dude is from the SOUTH. You know the region that is spitting out "stars" over night?

yet he could never ever achieve what those around him could or can only because he valued having much more depth to his music. Oj the Juice man type rappers will get more love than him. Its no.t about complexity...its about a BUNCH of stuff. A lot has to do with PROGRAMING.

Currency is NOT complex by any means, he spits simple stories of being from the south, but with much more value, and for that he suffers successfully. Radio and the likes have NO love. A mumbling or weak skill artist that nobody can understand gets the Radio.

Big Sean could not stand in NO cipher and hang, but yet he like top five name in the game.

Its not about complexity as much as it skill. Skill is everything. Fife Dawg was not complex, but his SKILL is Highly evident in able to communicate.

The Skill is being Kept from the masses and were being fed Garbage.

I don't care that Designer is from my OWN Boro. The dude is TRASH.

Well, I can speak for my generation, considering I'm 22 years old, brought up in Staten Island, but hang around East Orange/Newark/Linden Jersey a lot. The reason why Joey isn't receiving praise is because the streets have dubbed lyricists or conscious rappers as 'corny.' Lyrical hip-hop isn't really loved in the streets anymore. Future, Thugger, Drake, Uzi Vert, and Kodak Black are the biggest names in the streets these days. Y'all gotta see how they do Cole/Wale/Joey on twitter. By far those are the 3 most hated artists on social media.

They don't want to critically think or pay pristine attention, they want to feel music.

It's really sad, but it's our generation.

It's crazy to say someone who moved as much units as Cole did with his last album is underrated but he really is by dudes in our generation. I never get the boring argument with him. It's just a lazy way to say I don't have the capacity to understand concepts within songs. I hate to sound like the typical Cole stan but, some stereotypes ring true.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjstZDSKI9o[/youtube]

Dude sounds like Pac on this chit to me

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFN-iKwMrIQ[/youtube]

You really going to say he's boring on this ish? Cmon now.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2xEfMyBtUg[/youtube]

Nobody in the mainstream game (including Kendrick) can really touch this dude when he's on top of his chit.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2B5clYLtOc[/youtube]

Personal favorite from last album.