The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 3)

[yoyoboy]

I thought Kyrie actually did a decent job against Curry. He was crap against Barnes and Livingston though. To be fair, no one could stop the latter of the two.

[BasketballFan7]

1. Going to Love when he is matched up on Iggy / Klay is not worth pursuing consistently. The Cavs didn't have their offense churning like it was because of Love pounding the rock, and those guys are good defenders. It should be used, but only so much. He did better than expected defensively though.

2. As I have said for a while, Kyrie does not play a winning brand of basketball on either side. Ridiculously talented but a detriment. He has no basketball IQ or sense of awareness on either side. He loses track of teammates and opponents and dribbles the ball through the hardwood. Love hasn't completely delivered in Cleveland, but in general he does more things that contribute to winning basketball. When not scoring, at least he provides spacing, passing, movement, IQ, and generally effort. Kyrie is an elite catch and shoot player, but even there he is lacking due to his tendency to hesitate upon the catch and often decide to put the ball on the floor (nothing wrong with that if the defender is closing out hard, but he does it even when open). He doesn't move around nearly enough off the ball. He doesn't run the pick and roll or pop better than a high schooler. He is a shooting guard who wants the ball in his hands all the time and his defense is somehow still worse than his team offense, by far!

3. LBJ needs to cut out thinking he can just dominate Iggy. He is too good. Overall the Cavs went away from their game plan too much in an attempt to adjust to GS, when the Cavs offense needed no adjusting.

[yoyoboy]

LeBron really disappointed me in Game 1 to be honest. I expected one of the most motivated, locked-in LeBrons we would ever see, but that really didn't seem to be the case. I saw no sense of urgency with him or a willingness to establish his control on the game. Last year in the Finals, I saw a man on a mission. Other than that, he made crucial errors when we had momentum (especially turnovers and missed bunnies at the rim), he looked absolutely gassed mid-third quarter on, he settled for jumpers, and his demeanor in both the game and the postgame interviews screamed to me that he's almost given up and expects defeat at this point.

I understand we're outmatched here and GS is the overwhelming favorites, but where's that competitiveness? I hate to bring this up, but there's no way in hell Jordan would've lied down and accepted defeat in the face of any obstacle, no matter how large. LeBron's so talented and will absolutely go down as a top 5 at worst player of time for me, even if we get swept in this series, but sometimes I have to question the dude's mentality...

He was still probably the best player on the court on Thursday, and almost everyone on our team besides him and Love were garbage, but I hold LeBron to a FAR higher standard than everyone else, given his talent level and the expectations he set when he returned to the Cavs. If we win Game 2, this entire series turns around in our favor with 3/5 final games in Cleveland, but I'm just not confident at all that LeBron will treat Game 2 like the must win game that it is and put everything he has out there on the floor.

[tsherkin]

he made crucial errors when we had momentum (especially turnovers and missed bunnies at the rim), he looked absolutely gassed mid-third quarter on, he settled for jumpers,

Missed bunnies at the rim aren't an indicator of lacking focus so much, IMO. He struggled to finish a little, but he's hardly alone in that regard. He's 31 and has more minutes on him than Jordan's entire Chicago career, RS and PS. Lebron was 9/21 (2/4 from 3) in this game, which is 42.9% FG. In 97, when Jordan was 34, Jordan shot that 9 times. He shot under 40% 4 times and under 30% twice. I don't hear you complaining about his lack of focus for shooting 9/23 against Atlanta or 11/31 against Miami, or 11/27 against Utah, so that's a double-standard right there. I know you just watched the game, so it's fresh in your mind, but it actually costs a lot of energy to bull all the way to the rim on every possession, particularly when you're doing everything all of the time.

The Cavs were most-noticeably lacking in the 2nd and 4th quarters offensively, and the 1st and 4th quarters defensively. 12 boards, 9 assists and a bunch of strong defensive possessions scattered all over the game, Lebron was doing his thing. The 3 was there for once, and he wasn't HESITATING to take the jumper (as opposed to "settling for the J," IMO).

The bench was 3/10 for 10 points and 3 turnovers. Kyrie was 7/22 from the field (even if he was 11/12 at the line) and was getting flustered and stalled by Steph Curry. He had 3 turnovers; Love had 4, as did Lebron (but again, Lebron also had 9 assists and did a bunch of other stuff). Lebron had 4 offensive rebounds (some of them his own misses, of course), which is +1 over Kyrie and Love together. Tristan Thompson murdered it for 6 offensive boards, and was 5/11 from the floor. Love was 7/17 from the floor.

So realistically, Lebron could have done whatever he wanted, but with Kyre and Love combing to go 14/39 (35.9% FG), this isn't a game that Lebron's individual scoring could have won. This is 2009 Orlando or 2015 Golden State happening again (in this single game, anyway).

The Cavs were -4, -5, +3 and -9 by quarter, yes? So they just kept failing all over, despite limiting the tempo of the game to under 90 possessions. Lebron had 8 points to lead all scorers in the first and they still lost the quarter. LBJ was what, 0/4 from the field because he went 0/3 on a sequence of put-back attempts, and 3/4 at the line in the 2nd, which they also lost. Barbosa lit the Cavs up for 7 in the quarter, while Klay and Draymond and Barnes both did well themselves.

Come the third, James was 3/6 for 7 points (tied for lead in that quarter) and had a pair of assists in the third quarter. Because Love was clicking that quarter, they were actually able to compete and score points, and they won the quarter. He was 2/5 in the fourth (0/2 on a pair of offensive rebounds, then 2/3) with 3 assists and the Cavs quit with around 2.5 to go because they were down 17.


I think you're looking into this the wrong way. The Cavs got smashed defensively but Lebron drove their offense with passing and two quarters where he was scoring well. The bunnies he missed would have been single-possession swings in a blow-out loss, they didn't matter even a little bit, and I don't thin it's fair to crack too hard on him for that when there was systemic failure from his entire supporting cast... Neither Kobe nor Jordan could have won that game with their teammates crapping the bed so hard they could rocket themselves to the moon either...

[SideshowBob]

LeBron really disappointed me in Game 1 to be honest. I expected one of the most motivated, locked-in LeBrons we would ever see, but that really didn't seem to be the case. I saw no sense of urgency with him or a willingness to establish his control on the game. Last year in the Finals, I saw a man on a mission. Other than that, he made crucial errors when we had momentum (especially turnovers and missed bunnies at the rim), he looked absolutely gassed mid-third quarter on, he settled for jumpers, and his demeanor in both the game and the postgame interviews screamed to me that he's almost given up and expects defeat at this point.

I understand we're outmatched here and GS is the overwhelming favorites, but where's that competitiveness? I hate to bring this up, but there's no way in hell Jordan would've lied down and accepted defeat in the face of any obstacle, no matter how large. LeBron's so talented and will absolutely go down as a top 5 at worst player of time for me, even if we get swept in this series, but sometimes I have to question the dude's mentality...

He was still probably the best player on the court on Thursday, and almost everyone on our team besides him and Love were garbage, but I hold LeBron to a FAR higher standard than everyone else, given his talent level and the expectations he set when he returned to the Cavs. If we win Game 2, this entire series turns around in our favor with 3/5 final games in Cleveland, but I'm just not confident at all that LeBron will treat Game 2 like the must win game that it is and put everything he has out there on the floor.

That was the most locked-in I've seen him defensively all playoffs (and that's saying something).

About the only issue I had with him was his insistence to post-up Iggy on the wrong block - I can understand his lower activity off the ball/screening when he's putting in this kind of effort defensively (and when Kyrie puts up 36% usage).

[ppedro123]

LeBron really disappointed me in Game 1 to be honest. I expected one of the most motivated, locked-in LeBrons we would ever see, but that really didn't seem to be the case. I saw no sense of urgency with him or a willingness to establish his control on the game. Last year in the Finals, I saw a man on a mission. Other than that, he made crucial errors when we had momentum (especially turnovers and missed bunnies at the rim), he looked absolutely gassed mid-third quarter on, he settled for jumpers, and his demeanor in both the game and the postgame interviews screamed to me that he's almost given up and expects defeat at this point.

I understand we're outmatched here and GS is the overwhelming favorites, but where's that competitiveness? I hate to bring this up, but there's no way in hell Jordan would've lied down and accepted defeat in the face of any obstacle, no matter how large. LeBron's so talented and will absolutely go down as a top 5 at worst player of time for me, even if we get swept in this series, but sometimes I have to question the dude's mentality...

He was still probably the best player on the court on Thursday, and almost everyone on our team besides him and Love were garbage, but I hold LeBron to a FAR higher standard than everyone else, given his talent level and the expectations he set when he returned to the Cavs. If we win Game 2, this entire series turns around in our favor with 3/5 final games in Cleveland, but I'm just not confident at all that LeBron will treat Game 2 like the must win game that it is and put everything he has out there on the floor.

WTF?

Its Game 1, and you're bringing up Jordan's competitiveness because to you it looks like he (LeBron) "gave up and is expeccting defeat at this point"?

[G35]

he made crucial errors when we had momentum (especially turnovers and missed bunnies at the rim), he looked absolutely gassed mid-third quarter on, he settled for jumpers,

Missed bunnies at the rim aren't an indicator of lacking focus so much, IMO. He struggled to finish a little, but he's hardly alone in that regard. He's 31 and has more minutes on him than Jordan's entire Chicago career, RS and PS. Lebron was 9/21 (2/4 from 3) in this game, which is 42.9% FG. In 97, when Jordan was 34, Jordan shot that 9 times. He shot under 40% 4 times and under 30% twice. I don't hear you complaining about his lack of focus for shooting 9/23 against Atlanta or 11/31 against Miami, or 11/27 against Utah, so that's a double-standard right there. I know you just watched the game, so it's fresh in your mind, but it actually costs a lot of energy to bull all the way to the rim on every possession, particularly when you're doing everything all of the time.

The Cavs were most-noticeably lacking in the 2nd and 4th quarters offensively, and the 1st and 4th quarters defensively. 12 boards, 9 assists and a bunch of strong defensive possessions scattered all over the game, Lebron was doing his thing. The 3 was there for once, and he wasn't HESITATING to take the jumper (as opposed to "settling for the J," IMO).

The bench was 3/10 for 10 points and 3 turnovers. Kyrie was 7/22 from the field (even if he was 11/12 at the line) and was getting flustered and stalled by Steph Curry. He had 3 turnovers; Love had 4, as did Lebron (but again, Lebron also had 9 assists and did a bunch of other stuff). Lebron had 4 offensive rebounds (some of them his own misses, of course), which is +1 over Kyrie and Love together. Tristan Thompson murdered it for 6 offensive boards, and was 5/11 from the floor. Love was 7/17 from the floor.

So realistically, Lebron could have done whatever he wanted, but with Kyre and Love combing to go 14/39 (35.9% FG), this isn't a game that Lebron's individual scoring could have won. This is 2009 Orlando or 2015 Golden State happening again (in this single game, anyway).

The Cavs were -4, -5, +3 and -9 by quarter, yes? So they just kept failing all over, despite limiting the tempo of the game to under 90 possessions. Lebron had 8 points to lead all scorers in the first and they still lost the quarter. LBJ was what, 0/4 from the field because he went 0/3 on a sequence of put-back attempts, and 3/4 at the line in the 2nd, which they also lost. Barbosa lit the Cavs up for 7 in the quarter, while Klay and Draymond and Barnes both did well themselves.

Come the third, James was 3/6 for 7 points (tied for lead in that quarter) and had a pair of assists in the third quarter. Because Love was clicking that quarter, they were actually able to compete and score points, and they won the quarter. He was 2/5 in the fourth (0/2 on a pair of offensive rebounds, then 2/3) with 3 assists and the Cavs quit with around 2.5 to go because they were down 17.


I think you're looking into this the wrong way. The Cavs got smashed defensively but Lebron drove their offense with passing and two quarters where he was scoring well. The bunnies he missed would have been single-possession swings in a blow-out loss, they didn't matter even a little bit, and I don't thin it's fair to crack too hard on him for that when there was systemic failure from his entire supporting cast... Neither Kobe nor Jordan could have won that game with their teammates crapping the bed so hard they could rocket themselves to the moon either...

I think you are looking at it in the wrong way. This is Lebron James, a player who is regarded as a top 5 player and a threat for GOAT if he wins the title this year. You don't compare what he does to other players, he is suppose to be on a higher tier than everyone else on the court.

Yes he has played a lot of minutes. You are right in saying other players did not live up to previous standards due to playing time, but was that an excuse for Jordan, Karl Malone/Stockton, Kobe, Duncan, Ginobli, Parker, when they do not play up to standards? No, and Lebron is supposedly better than all of them. He is held to a higher standard. Whenever we want to lower his standard then we can make excuses for him, but as of right now people still regard him as the best player in the game. You don't get alibi's with that label.

What I want to know is WHY does Lebron have to do everything....WHY can't others do some of the playmaking....well for one thing Lebron's outside shooting limits any passes to him in a spot up situation. Tristan Thompson and Kevin Love are two of the better rebounders in the game, let them fulfill that role.

What it seems like is that Lebron "does everything" and it gives him an out for when things go wrong. Stop trying to do everything and formulate a team concept because the Cav's are getting beat by a real team on the other side. Lebron needs to pick a lane and stay in it, or else do everything and stop complaining about the lack of help......

[tsherkin]

He is held to a higher standard. Whenever we want to lower his standard then we can make excuses for him, but as of right now people still regard him as the best player in the game. You don't get alibi's with that label.

Why are you quoting me with this rhetoric? "Better than Jordan" isn't my position on Lebron, so why would you use that

What I want to know is WHY does Lebron have to do everything....WHY can't others do some of the playmaking....

Well, typically they do. Kyrie isn't very good at it, though, and Dellevadova is only so capable. What frequently happens is that the Cavs run Lebron off of the ball around the key, popping up to screen and roll and all of that stuff. He's not up above the arc attacking from the point nearly as much as he used to. He DOES seed the ball to Kyrie and Delly, that's precisely the point. They didn't do enough. That argument? Doesn't work.

[ceiling raiser]

Basketball's Bell Curve - Implications on Strategy

Now let’s say you have a competitive, consistent team. You’ve won a ton of games, and now you’re in the playoffs facing the best teams in the region or in the state. Now you’re an underdog. Now you don’t want to be consistent because a consistent underdog loses. Now you need to find strategies that are “inconsistent” or “risky,” strategies that bring your underdog team closer to being a .500 team against that favorite. Again, this is where having the variability in the bell curve method helps.

What are some “risky” strategies? First and most obviously, a press is a risky strategy because it often gets points off the defense or gives up easy baskets. A second risky strategy is to shoot a lot of threes; one is more likely to get six points or fifty points by shooting twenty three-pointers than by shooting twenty two-pointers. These are pretty obvious risky strategies. Teams often employ them when they are losing at the end of games because they can score a lot of points really quickly with these strategies. They may end up falling much further behind in the end, but they nevertheless have a much better chance with these “risky” strategies of actually winning the game.

A third risky strategy—one most people have not considered—is to slow the pace down, reducing the number of possessions in a game. This is obviously not done at the end of the game when a team is losing. It’s not that kind of “risky” strategy. Rather, the case where this strategy is used is when an underdog gets an early lead on a favorite. What it does is limit the better team from taking full advantage of being better. A good team will win out over a bad team if you play long enough. By cutting a game down to fewer possessions, an underdog is limiting how long the favorite has to prove that it is better. It may be a nail-biter, but the odds are better.

All these strategies fundamentally increase the variability of the difference between points scored and points allowed. Maybe they do it by increasing the variability of points scored {taking a lot of three-pointers does so). Maybe they do it by increasing the variability of points allowed (applying a press can do so). Maybe they do it by removing the correlation between an offense and a defense (that's what a press does by scoring off of turnovers). The slow-down strategy actually works by increasing the variability of both offensive and defensive ratings.“ After a game in 1997 in which the turtle-slow Cleveland Cavaliers of Mike Fratello beat the favored Chicago Bulls 73-70, 1 estimated that the Cavaliers improved their odds of winning that game from about 28 percent to 34 percent by slowing the game from ninety-five possessions to seventy-eight possessions. Every 6 percent matters.

Secondary risky strategies can be determined by looking at tactics that cause an opponent to answer with a risky strategy of its own. For instance. a zone often causes an opponent to make more three-point attempts and to slow down the game. I once saw a classic example of a game in which a couple of risky strategies came together to create a victory for an underdog. In 1992. the Florida State Seminoles came into Chapel Hill to play the very strong North Carolina'Far Heels. Florida State grabbed an early lead with Sam Cassell and Charlie Ward hitting early shots. including a couple of three-pointers. With that lead. the Seminoles sat in a zone even though the Tar Heels had good perimeter shooters in Donald Williams and Henrik Rodl. And every time up the court. Florida State put the ball in the hands of Cassell at the perimeter. who dribbled away the shot clock until it got down under fifteen seconds. They scored many of their points off of three-point shots, and they pulled out one of only four wins that opponents notched against the Tar Heels that season. It also made Cassell a star in my book at the time.

Other “risky” strategies that may be considered include:
• Fronting the post in the hopes of getting a steal.
• Releasing your guards after forcing a missed shot in the hopes of getting a long outlet pass.
• Sending your guards to the offensive boards.
• Playing particularly oversized or undersized lineups.

I do not want to imply that these strategies should always be used if you're an underdog. If you are facing a team that has tremendous outside shooters. giving them outside shots. though they may miss a few, is probably not the best idea. Rather. “risky” strategies are ones that you should consider if you don't have clear evidence that one strategy or another is obviously better or not. If you're planning on changing the defense after a time-out but don't have any strong reason to choose one strategy or another, consider whether you are an underdog or favorite (which can depend upon the score and time left in the game). and think of using a risky defense if you're an underdog or a more safe man-to-man if you're the favorite.

Or you can use the rule of thumb that is already pretty well known and is definitely a consequence of the bell curve: At the end of a tight game. go for the win if you’re on the road, but go for the tie if you're at home.

[tone wone]

I think you are looking at it in the wrong way. This is Lebron James, a player who is regarded as a top 5 player and a threat for GOAT if he wins the title this year. You don't compare what he does to other players, he is suppose to be on a higher tier than everyone else on the court.

Yes he has played a lot of minutes. You are right in saying other players did not live up to previous standards due to playing time, but was that an excuse for Jordan, Karl Malone/Stockton, Kobe, Duncan, Ginobli, Parker, when they do not play up to standards? No, and Lebron is supposedly better than all of them. He is held to a higher standard. Whenever we want to lower his standard then we can make excuses for him, but as of right now people still regard him as the best player in the game. You don't get alibi's with that label.

What I want to know is WHY does Lebron have to do everything....WHY can't others do some of the playmaking....well for one thing Lebron's outside shooting limits any passes to him in a spot up situation. Tristan Thompson and Kevin Love are two of the better rebounders in the game, let them fulfill that role.

What it seems like is that Lebron "does everything" and it gives him an out for when things go wrong. Stop trying to do everything and formulate a team concept because the Cav's are getting beat by a real team on the other side. Lebron needs to pick a lane and stay in it, or else do everything and stop complaining about the lack of help......

This post is illogical. So what you're saying is...

"Be one dimensional Lebron. The nerve of you trying to contribute in all phases of the game. Don't you know, when you rebound and pass you make your team worst? "Thats a real team you're facing! Built on specialist. Their passers pass, their shooters shot and their rebounders rebound."

[Ballerhogger]

This is must repose game for lebron and the cavs. If they get walked on again then it is over.. If they put up a good fight and play decent there are in it. I don't expect them to win it ,Lebron has had plenty rest if theres a time to go super sayian mode NOW is that time. As far career value not that important but a significant foot note.


Remember when Lebron bounced back after game 1 and went ham
or
Remember When lebron had terrible game after being blown out game 1.

[OnlyOneWay2Play]

Stepping back from just the G1 reaction and looking at the big picture of this matchup I come back to this:

To beat the Warriors, you have to have an answer for their Death Lineup. If you can't do that, then even if you are winning against other configurations, they will ultimately go to that lineup more and more (as we saw in last year's Finals when they started it and won games 4 - 6). The Thunder were able to do this and should have won the series because of it. Beat the death lineup, you can beat the Warriors. The Thunder did it with a lineup of:

Westbrook
Waiters
Roberson
Durant
Ibaka

I think the Cavs version of would be:

Kyrie
Delly
Shumpert
LeBron
Frye

The Thunder's version is obviously much more ferocious defensively with greater athleticism and switch-ability. But the Cavs version should still be pretty formidable on D - with Delly hounding Curry, Shump locking down Klay, and LeBron on Green so he can switch and roam - and the Cavs should be significantly better on offensive than the Thunder lineup. With Frye, Irving, and Delly they have excellent 3-point shooters surrounding LeBron, who is a much better passer than Durant. And Kyrie can has a higher offensive ceiling than Westbrook (and perhaps anyone in this series).

Ultimately, I think this is the Cavs' best lineup against GSW. I don't think Love can hold up defensively in the long-run against the death lineup; Frye is a better option at the 5 because he is legit 7-foot and a slightly better athlete, so he can contest and move better on D, and he's a better shooter with a higher + quicker release. Kyrie has major deficiencies on D too obviously, but he can be hid on Iggy more easily and is much more dynamic on offense than Love; to have any chance the Cavs need the 57-points-against-the-Spurs Kyrie. He might not hit that level, but he has the talent; Love simply doesn't have nearly that high a ceiling.

[parapooper]

I think you are looking at it in the wrong way. This is Lebron James, a player who is regarded as a top 5 player and a threat for GOAT if he wins the title this year. You don't compare what he does to other players, he is suppose to be on a higher tier than everyone else on the court.

Yes he has played a lot of minutes. You are right in saying other players did not live up to previous standards due to playing time, but was that an excuse for Jordan, Karl Malone/Stockton, Kobe, Duncan, Ginobli, Parker, when they do not play up to standards? No, and Lebron is supposedly better than all of them. He is held to a higher standard. Whenever we want to lower his standard then we can make excuses for him, but as of right now people still regard him as the best player in the game. You don't get alibi's with that label.

Hmm, maybe my memory is getting worse, but I faintly remember hearing people say all year that Curry is the best player in the league and a unamimous MVP vote. And Curry just had a finals game 1 that was worse than pretty much any playoff game LeBron has had in his entire life (maybe less than a handful games from 5+ years ago are debatable) and you don't see the entire internet defecating on him (not that they should, it happens). Imagine LeBron had had Curry's game to start these finals.... Instead, he was easily the best player on the floor in game 1, was better than Curry in 6 out of the 7 finals games he has played in his life and is still getting way more criticism than Curry. So we are already setting the standards for past-peak LeBron waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay higher than for a guy who is in GOAT peak conversation for some reason

[MisterHibachi]

From RCF:

Thought it was interesting that Lue mentioned to the media he has been talking to Doc Rivers and that Doc mentioned a few things he saw that we could do different. And Lue said he won't reveal the secrets.

[toodles23]

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2016/story/_/id/15976601/kyrie-irving-key-cleveland-cavaliers-game-2-hopes

Thoughts on Kyrie's comments here? He seems to think his approach from last game was fundamentally good, and that it just needs a few tweaks.

[G35]

I think you are looking at it in the wrong way. This is Lebron James, a player who is regarded as a top 5 player and a threat for GOAT if he wins the title this year. You don't compare what he does to other players, he is suppose to be on a higher tier than everyone else on the court.

Yes he has played a lot of minutes. You are right in saying other players did not live up to previous standards due to playing time, but was that an excuse for Jordan, Karl Malone/Stockton, Kobe, Duncan, Ginobli, Parker, when they do not play up to standards? No, and Lebron is supposedly better than all of them. He is held to a higher standard. Whenever we want to lower his standard then we can make excuses for him, but as of right now people still regard him as the best player in the game. You don't get alibi's with that label.

What I want to know is WHY does Lebron have to do everything....WHY can't others do some of the playmaking....well for one thing Lebron's outside shooting limits any passes to him in a spot up situation. Tristan Thompson and Kevin Love are two of the better rebounders in the game, let them fulfill that role.

What it seems like is that Lebron "does everything" and it gives him an out for when things go wrong. Stop trying to do everything and formulate a team concept because the Cav's are getting beat by a real team on the other side. Lebron needs to pick a lane and stay in it, or else do everything and stop complaining about the lack of help......

This post is illogical. So what you're saying is...

"Be one dimensional Lebron. The nerve of you trying to contribute in all phases of the game. Don't you know, when you rebound and pass you make your team worst? "Thats a real team you're facing! Built on specialist. Their passers pass, their shooters shot and their rebounders rebound."

No, I'm not saying be one dimensional Lebron. I am saying that multi-dimensional Lebron marginalizes the other talents on the Cavaliers.

Take Steph Curry, in a re-draft, Curry may not be the #1 pick because he is not as multi-faceted as Lebron nor able to impact both sides of the ball like an Anthony Davis or KAT. However, Curry does have one skill that is uber elite. So when you draft Curry you know what he will bring every game and then you are able to build around it. Let's do that:

- Curry is not an elite defensive player. He is adequate enough to stay with his man and no where near a James Harden, however, you will need another player who can guard elite perimeter players. Klay Thompson, fills that role while also filling a role on offense as another 3pt gunner who you can run plays for. Klay can fill the Rip Hamilton/Reggie Miller role that allows the Warriors to run some baseline action and curls. You can't do that with Lebron since he dominates the ball, going iso-heavy and his hero-passing.

- Curry stays in his lane by doing what he does best and that is shoot 3ptrs, which defenses are well aware of. Because he is a threat anywhere past half court and he is a reliable spot up shooter he does NOT have to be a playmaker. The Warriors can allow Draymond, Bogut, Livingston, Iguodola to run the orchestrate plays and you can pass the ball out to Curry to FINISH PERIMETER plays. Since Lebron's jumpshot is broken, did anyone notice in the first half when the Cavaliers had 24 second violation because they were over passing. Lebron ended up with the ball with 2-3 seconds left and because he is not confident in that situation, he passed the ball to a teammate instead of taking the shot. Think about this...who are you going to leave open for a perimeter shot...Kyrie, Kevin Love, Channing Frye, JR, Dellavedova, or Lebron? I'm leaving Lebron open because his outside shot is suspect. Yes, Lebron can rebound, dribble, get to the rim, pass, defend, but his outside game lowers the overall ceiling of the Cavaliers and it shows up against strong defensive teams who will play him one on one and let him try bully ball.

- Against the Warriors Lebron wants to show he can defend Curry the same way he has Derrick Rose, Kyle Lowry, Dwyane Wade, Derozan but that hurt the Cav's because now everyone is not on the same page when switching. It is leaving backdoor cuts, open lanes down the middle because the Cavs are not playing team defense but hero Lebron defense. The Warriors are too versatile to not stick to the game plan. It is not the 3ptrs that kill teams vs the Warriors, its the easy layups and dunks they get off of their cutting action and teams overplaying their shooters. Lebron cannot play hero defense, he has to stay within the team concept.

Its funny that people are calling this the greatest time for basketball ever but then want to celebrate Lebron when he doesn't play that way. He dominates the Cavs and when the pressure is the highest he reverts to dominating everything. It would be nice to see Lebron play off the action of Kyrie and especially Kevin Love. Let Kevin create something in the post, but whenever Kevin gets an opportunity the whole team just stands and watches. That is not effective. You don't just tell someone to create something and then just watch. Create some back side action, get the defense moving. Otherwise this is just 90's basketball backing the man down in the post......

[G35]

I think you are looking at it in the wrong way. This is Lebron James, a player who is regarded as a top 5 player and a threat for GOAT if he wins the title this year. You don't compare what he does to other players, he is suppose to be on a higher tier than everyone else on the court.

Yes he has played a lot of minutes. You are right in saying other players did not live up to previous standards due to playing time, but was that an excuse for Jordan, Karl Malone/Stockton, Kobe, Duncan, Ginobli, Parker, when they do not play up to standards? No, and Lebron is supposedly better than all of them. He is held to a higher standard. Whenever we want to lower his standard then we can make excuses for him, but as of right now people still regard him as the best player in the game. You don't get alibi's with that label.

Hmm, maybe my memory is getting worse, but I faintly remember hearing people say all year that Curry is the best player in the league and a unamimous MVP vote. And Curry just had a finals game 1 that was worse than pretty much any playoff game LeBron has had in his entire life (maybe less than a handful games from 5+ years ago are debatable) and you don't see the entire internet defecating on him (not that they should, it happens). Imagine LeBron had had Curry's game to start these finals.... Instead, he was easily the best player on the floor in game 1, was better than Curry in 6 out of the 7 finals games he has played in his life and is still getting way more criticism than Curry. So we are already setting the standards for past-peak LeBron waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay higher than for a guy who is in GOAT peak conversation for some reason

Yeah but guess what....Curry's team won by 15 points and no one is saying that they did not need Curry on the floor. Lebron has all these great games and his team loses. So what does he need to do differently? Likely nothing, if he wants to have great games and lose. If all you are going to do is look at the game from an individual standpoint then Lebron is doing just fine.......

[kayess]

I think you are looking at it in the wrong way. This is Lebron James, a player who is regarded as a top 5 player and a threat for GOAT if he wins the title this year. You don't compare what he does to other players, he is suppose to be on a higher tier than everyone else on the court.

Yes he has played a lot of minutes. You are right in saying other players did not live up to previous standards due to playing time, but was that an excuse for Jordan, Karl Malone/Stockton, Kobe, Duncan, Ginobli, Parker, when they do not play up to standards? No, and Lebron is supposedly better than all of them. He is held to a higher standard. Whenever we want to lower his standard then we can make excuses for him, but as of right now people still regard him as the best player in the game. You don't get alibi's with that label.

What I want to know is WHY does Lebron have to do everything....WHY can't others do some of the playmaking....well for one thing Lebron's outside shooting limits any passes to him in a spot up situation. Tristan Thompson and Kevin Love are two of the better rebounders in the game, let them fulfill that role.

What it seems like is that Lebron "does everything" and it gives him an out for when things go wrong. Stop trying to do everything and formulate a team concept because the Cav's are getting beat by a real team on the other side. Lebron needs to pick a lane and stay in it, or else do everything and stop complaining about the lack of help......

This post is illogical. So what you're saying is...

"Be one dimensional Lebron. The nerve of you trying to contribute in all phases of the game. Don't you know, when you rebound and pass you make your team worst? "Thats a real team you're facing! Built on specialist. Their passers pass, their shooters shot and their rebounders rebound."

No, I'm not saying be one dimensional Lebron. I am saying that multi-dimensional Lebron marginalizes the other talents on the Cavaliers.

Take Steph Curry, in a re-draft, Curry may not be the #1 pick because he is not as multi-faceted as Lebron nor able to impact both sides of the ball like an Anthony Davis or KAT. However, Curry does have one skill that is uber elite. So when you draft Curry you know what he will bring every game and then you are able to build around it. Let's do that:

- Curry is not an elite defensive player. He is adequate enough to stay with his man and no where near a James Harden, however, you will need another player who can guard elite perimeter players. Klay Thompson, fills that role while also filling a role on offense as another 3pt gunner who you can run plays for. Klay can fill the Rip Hamilton/Reggie Miller role that allows the Warriors to run some baseline action and curls. You can't do that with Lebron since he dominates the ball, going iso-heavy and his hero-passing.

- Curry stays in his lane by doing what he does best and that is shoot 3ptrs, which defenses are well aware of. Because he is a threat anywhere past half court and he is a reliable spot up shooter he does NOT have to be a playmaker. The Warriors can allow Draymond, Bogut, Livingston, Iguodola to run the orchestrate plays and you can pass the ball out to Curry to FINISH PERIMETER plays. Since Lebron's jumpshot is broken, did anyone notice in the first half when the Cavaliers had 24 second violation because they were over passing. Lebron ended up with the ball with 2-3 seconds left and because he is not confident in that situation, he passed the ball to a teammate instead of taking the shot. Think about this...who are you going to leave open for a perimeter shot...Kyrie, Kevin Love, Channing Frye, JR, Dellavedova, or Lebron? I'm leaving Lebron open because his outside shot is suspect. Yes, Lebron can rebound, dribble, get to the rim, pass, defend, but his outside game lowers the overall ceiling of the Cavaliers and it shows up against strong defensive teams who will play him one on one and let him try bully ball.

- Against the Warriors Lebron wants to show he can defend Curry the same way he has Derrick Rose, Kyle Lowry, Dwyane Wade, Derozan but that hurt the Cav's because now everyone is not on the same page when switching. It is leaving backdoor cuts, open lanes down the middle because the Cavs are not playing team defense but hero Lebron defense. The Warriors are too versatile to not stick to the game plan. It is not the 3ptrs that kill teams vs the Warriors, its the easy layups and dunks they get off of their cutting action and teams overplaying their shooters. Lebron cannot play hero defense, he has to stay within the team concept.

Its funny that people are calling this the greatest time for basketball ever but then want to celebrate Lebron when he doesn't play that way. He dominates the Cavs and when the pressure is the highest he reverts to dominating everything. It would be nice to see Lebron play off the action of Kyrie and especially Kevin Love. Let Kevin create something in the post, but whenever Kevin gets an opportunity the whole team just stands and watches. That is not effective. You don't just tell someone to create something and then just watch. Create some back side action, get the defense moving. Otherwise this is just 90's basketball backing the man down in the post......

I am saying this with all due respect - but this is one of the most insane, logic-devoid posts I've ever seen.

Some of your posts revolve around "holding LeBron to a higher standard" - have you seen this thread when LeBron misses a free throw, refuses to take a wide open jumper, takes a jumper but has bad form... let alone when he has a bad game?

It's hilarious to see the same people who think he has a GOAT case based on being the sheer amount of GOAT/close to GOAT years label this guy trash and call him all sorts of names. I'd say the criticism even goes overboard at times, and people generally err on the side of caution. Really only Winfield has the Cavs in 7, nearly everyone else is saying they'll be gone in 5, 6 games...

It's pointless to ask for a higher standard, because most of the guys in this thread have been doing that for a long, long time. Based on your posting history, what you're really asking is for these guys to say "Kobe > LeBron", and I don't think anyone can say that if they were being intellectually honest.

On to some of your points:

"I am saying that multi-dimensional Lebron marginalizes the other talents on the Cavaliers." - the same multi-dimensional LeBron that plugged lots of holes on the Heat, allowing them to win a championship? You're saying he shouldn't be one-dimensional, but you're saying he marginalizes others... So what do you propose he become to maximize his teammates?

"Lebron cannot play hero defense" - absolutely one of the most hilarious things I've read on here. I missed the game, so I'll let others chime in on whether he played good defense or not (though from the comments, it seems he did; I will give you the benefit of the doubt, however). First is was people harping on his ball dominance when it was clear Kyrie was inept at being a playmaker... Now it's "hero defense" when some of his teammates were already getting torched?

Again, I didn't watch the game, so I'll let someone else address this - but if you're wrong and he played great defense, you should be ashamed of yourself for being so intellectually dishonest.

On your last paragraph - dude, have you watched the Cavs at all this post-season? That's exactly what he's been doing - but Kyrie doesn't even find him in transition! He's starting to take 3s so that he can play off of Love if they double him for some reason, he's been doing a lot of off-ball work: cutting, setting good screens... I'm not even sure if that's optimal if Kyrie isn't completely lighting it up.

I almost want LeBron to do everything you're saying he should, the Cavs lose by 30, and you lose your posting license on LeBron-Cavs dynamics related things. It's incredibly grating, tbh.

[ppedro123]

LeBron has to play a 2014 Finals Game 2 at Spurs type of game tonite


that was one dominant performance

[tsherkin]

LeBron has to play a 2014 Finals Game 2 at Spurs type of game tonite


that was one dominant performance

He had 35/10/3 in an extremely slow game where Bosh, Shard, and Ray Allen all actually shot really well (and in which Wade played quite well, additionally). They were able to hold SAS under 20 points in the 2nd and 4th quarters of the game, which was actually a critical factor in their victory. The Cavs weren't able to do that in any quarter of game 1, and surrendered 28+ in the 1st and 4th quarrters, while themselves scoring 19 in the 2nd and 21 in the 4th. Defense is a big part of things, and Miami was a lot better at it than the Cavs.

Lebron was quite good in that game, but you're overselling it a little. Yeah, he had a good scoring game, but he had a lot of help on either end, which is why they won, compared to G1 of the present Finals series.