Motor Keeps Going: The Michael Kidd-Gilchrist Thread III

[Braggins]

Such as what though? What is an example of an adjustment this season that he wasn't willing to make?

How about always using two traditional bigs even when other teams go small and despite the fact that we've always had at least one SF who is well suited to playing small ball PF.

Are we calling Marvin Williams (or even Cody Zeller) a traditional big?

You could say Cliff did exactly what you wanted him to do by bringing in Marv to make him a stretch PF.

My question was about this past season. I don't feel like lack of flexibility or creativity is a fair critique of his coaching last season.

Marv is 6'9" 230 and his primary position for at least the last two years has been PF. Cody is 7' and his primary position is center. So yes, although "traditional" wasnt the best choice of words. We always have someone whose primary position is PF at the 4 and a C at the 5. He is clearly not flexible about going small or not using a traditional lineup, unless we are going big and playing two centers. Im not sure how you could possibly dispute that.

He was much more flexible this season than previous seasons (he was stubborn to the point if lunacy before), but i still would not consider him a flexible coach at all. Hes still one of the more stubborn coaches in the league. It wasnt a huge ussue, but i do think it hurt us at times, especially in the playoffs.

Edit: I definitely think Cliff did a good job this season, but i just still wouldnt describe him as flexible.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

Edit: I definitely think Cliff did a good job this season, but i just still wouldnt describe him as flexible.

This.

And on MKG, my hope is that Cliff puts him in a position to be successful next season ... and I really hope that MKG doesn't get hurt again. As much for his sake as for the team.

Edit: And no I'm not assuming that Cliff will be a bad coach. MKG has worked to change his game to fit Cliff's system. I just hope that Cliff does the same, such as the one mentioned above.

[yosemiteben]

Marv is 6'9" 230 and his primary position for at least the last two years has been PF. Cody is 7' and his primary position is center. So yes, although "traditional" wasnt the best choice of words. We always have someone whose primary position is PF at the 4 and a C at the 5.

Completely disagree. Marv has been a PF for us, but before we brought him in he was never considered a traditional big or a typical PF. Doesn't make sense to me for you to say Cliff refuses to go small when he's clearly wanted to plug a career SF in at starting PF the last two seasons.

C has definitely not been Cody's primary position since he was drafted. We clearly wanted him to be a PF. He is absolutely not a model of a traditional center.

[Braggins]

Marv is 6'9" 230 and his primary position for at least the last two years has been PF. Cody is 7' and his primary position is center. So yes, although "traditional" wasnt the best choice of words. We always have someone whose primary position is PF at the 4 and a C at the 5.

Completely disagree. Marv has been a PF for us, but before we brought him in he was never considered a traditional big or a typical PF. Doesn't make sense to me for you to say Cliff refuses to go small when he's clearly wanted to plug a career SF in at starting PF the last two seasons.

C has definitely not been Cody's primary position since he was drafted. We clearly wanted him to be a PF. He is absolutely not a model of a traditional center.

I see both situations a bit differently. I think Marv is definitely a PF at this point. Hes too slow to guard most SFs and his biggest strength outside of his shooting is his surprising interior defense and rim protection. He also has prototypical PF size. I give Cliff credit for correctly identifying that Marv's true position is PF. I was very skeptical at first, but Cliff was correct when he said that Marv is the prototypical modern PF. His primary position at this point in his career is PF, although he can play some SF depending on matchups.

The Cody situation is similar to Marv. He started out as a PF for us, but I think it is pretty obvious that was incorrect and he clearly is primarily a center now. He is primarily a center, but can also play some PF. His skill set is more suited to playing center and he has prototypical center size (other than the short arms). Even if he was a PF I don't think that goes against my point. It would still mean the two big spots were being filled by PF's or C's.

I don't think Marv being initially miscast as a SF earlier in his career or Cody initially being miscast as PF really shows that Cliff is willing to play small, not at all really. 95% of the PF/C minutes were played by PF/C's this season. There were only a couple instances where we ever had a SF playing PF and it was due to an absurd amount of injuries forcing Cliff to do so. I kind of feel like we are arguing technicalities at this point. I didn't set out to try to rail on Cliff or anything, but you asked for an example of his inflexibility and that was the most glaring thing that came to mind for me (its a fairly minor nitpick on my part). I'm very pleased with the job he did this season. One of the main reasons that I sometimes get frustrated at what I perceive as Cliff not being willing to go small is that every offseason he talks about playing some small ball with MKG (or Batum now) at PF and then he NEVER DOES IT. Hes such a tease.

[JDR720]

this all depends on what you think traditional PF/C is.

you cant really say if Cody/Marv are traditional bigs unless you can say what a traditional PF/C is. is it by size, skill set or both? i would say they both are traditional bigs, Marvin is 6-9 240 with a 7-4 wingspan. i would say that is pretty ideal size and his skill set is a regular 3&D stretch 4. Cody has the measurements of a SF but his skill set is pretty clearly that of an energy/defensive center.

now back to the MKG ?.

is clifford creative/flexible enough to play MKG like OKC plays Roberson? i dont have any evidence to say yes.

[BeesWax]

I see both situations a bit differently. I think Marv is definitely a PF at this point. Hes too slow to guard most SFs and his biggest strength outside of his shooting is his surprising interior defense and rim protection. He also has prototypical PF size. I give Cliff credit for correctly identifying that Marv's true position is PF. I was very skeptical at first, but Cliff was correct when he said that Marv is the prototypical modern PF. His primary position at this point in his career is PF, although he can play some SF depending on matchups.

The Cody situation is similar to Marv. He started out as a PF for us, but I think it is pretty obvious that was incorrect and he clearly is primarily a center now. He is primarily a center, but can also play some PF. His skill set is more suited to playing center and he has prototypical center size (other than the short arms). Even if he was a PF I don't think that goes against my point. It would still mean the two big spots were being filled by PF's or C's.

I don't think Marv being initially miscast as a SF earlier in his career or Cody initially being miscast as PF really shows that Cliff is willing to play small, not at all really. 95% of the PF/C minutes were played by PF/C's this season. There were only a couple instances where we ever had a SF playing PF and it was due to an absurd amount of injuries forcing Cliff to do so. I kind of feel like we are arguing technicalities at this point. I didn't set out to try to rail on Cliff or anything, but you asked for an example of his inflexibility and that was the most glaring thing that came to mind for me (its a fairly minor nitpick on my part). I'm very pleased with the job he did this season. One of the main reasons that I sometimes get frustrated at what I perceive as Cliff not being willing to go small is that every offseason he talks about playing some small ball with MKG (or Batum now) at PF and then he NEVER DOES IT. Hes such a tease.

Cody has two primary positions right now. On offense he needs to be a center because he is as scared to shoot as Hendo was from outside of 2 ft. On defense he needs to be a PF because he is just to soft to really defend the post consistently. He was a much better rim protector as a PF where he came as a help defender to block shots.

Marc can play both SF and PF and actually did better defending Joe Johnson at SF in the playoffs than Deng at PF although he did both better than just about anyone else we had. Would have been nice to have MKG on Johnson so Marv could take Deng and Frank could sit the pine.

Cody is really a small ball center because he moves so well and can defend on the perimeter. So when teams go small we still have a 7' in there and can defend, even if he doesn't have C reach because of his T-rex arms. Marv being a traditional small ball PF from the start helps. He is long but he really is a SF playing PF right now. We went small this year and it showed when we could not grab a rebound against Whiteside in the playoffs.

[BeesWax]

this all depends on what you think traditional PF/C is.

you cant really say if Cody/Marv are traditional bigs unless you can say what a traditional PF/C is. is it by size, skill set or both? i would say they both are traditional bigs, Marvin is 6-9 240 with a 7-4 wingspan. i would say that is pretty ideal size and his skill set is a regular 3&D stretch 4. Cody has the measurements of a SF but his skill set is pretty clearly that of an energy/defensive center.

now back to the MKG ?.

is clifford creative/flexible enough to play MKG like OKC plays Roberson? i dont have any evidence to say yes.

I would say from what we have seen he is neither of these at any point of the day ever.

[Braggins]

I see both situations a bit differently. I think Marv is definitely a PF at this point. Hes too slow to guard most SFs and his biggest strength outside of his shooting is his surprising interior defense and rim protection. He also has prototypical PF size. I give Cliff credit for correctly identifying that Marv's true position is PF. I was very skeptical at first, but Cliff was correct when he said that Marv is the prototypical modern PF. His primary position at this point in his career is PF, although he can play some SF depending on matchups.

The Cody situation is similar to Marv. He started out as a PF for us, but I think it is pretty obvious that was incorrect and he clearly is primarily a center now. He is primarily a center, but can also play some PF. His skill set is more suited to playing center and he has prototypical center size (other than the short arms). Even if he was a PF I don't think that goes against my point. It would still mean the two big spots were being filled by PF's or C's.

I don't think Marv being initially miscast as a SF earlier in his career or Cody initially being miscast as PF really shows that Cliff is willing to play small, not at all really. 95% of the PF/C minutes were played by PF/C's this season. There were only a couple instances where we ever had a SF playing PF and it was due to an absurd amount of injuries forcing Cliff to do so. I kind of feel like we are arguing technicalities at this point. I didn't set out to try to rail on Cliff or anything, but you asked for an example of his inflexibility and that was the most glaring thing that came to mind for me (its a fairly minor nitpick on my part). I'm very pleased with the job he did this season. One of the main reasons that I sometimes get frustrated at what I perceive as Cliff not being willing to go small is that every offseason he talks about playing some small ball with MKG (or Batum now) at PF and then he NEVER DOES IT. Hes such a tease.

Cody has two primary positions right now. On offense he needs to be a center because he is as scared to shoot as Hendo was from outside of 2 ft. On defense he needs to be a PF because he is just to soft to really defend the post consistently. He was a much better rim protector as a PF where he came as a help defender to block shots.

Marc can play both SF and PF and actually did better defending Joe Johnson at SF in the playoffs than Deng at PF although he did both better than just about anyone else we had. Would have been nice to have MKG on Johnson so Marv could take Deng and Frank could sit the pine.

Cody is really a small ball center because he moves so well and can defend on the perimeter. So when teams go small we still have a 7' in there and can defend, even if he doesn't have C reach because of his T-rex arms. Marv being a traditional small ball PF from the start helps. He is long but he really is a SF playing PF right now. We went small this year and it showed when we could not grab a rebound against Whiteside in the playoffs.

I agree with your assessment on Cody, but I still think Marv is a PF primarily. He plays the vast majority of his minutes at PF, his role is that of a stretch PF (ball screener/pnp, spot up shooting, rebounding, rim protection, interior defense, etc), he is the standard size of a PF, and he is simply better as a PF in the majority of matchups (although he can be effective as a SF sometimes). We are kind of splitting hairs at this point, as we agree he is either PF/SF or SF/PF, but we have a slightly different perspective.

[BeesWax]

I see both situations a bit differently. I think Marv is definitely a PF at this point. Hes too slow to guard most SFs and his biggest strength outside of his shooting is his surprising interior defense and rim protection. He also has prototypical PF size. I give Cliff credit for correctly identifying that Marv's true position is PF. I was very skeptical at first, but Cliff was correct when he said that Marv is the prototypical modern PF. His primary position at this point in his career is PF, although he can play some SF depending on matchups.

The Cody situation is similar to Marv. He started out as a PF for us, but I think it is pretty obvious that was incorrect and he clearly is primarily a center now. He is primarily a center, but can also play some PF. His skill set is more suited to playing center and he has prototypical center size (other than the short arms). Even if he was a PF I don't think that goes against my point. It would still mean the two big spots were being filled by PF's or C's.

I don't think Marv being initially miscast as a SF earlier in his career or Cody initially being miscast as PF really shows that Cliff is willing to play small, not at all really. 95% of the PF/C minutes were played by PF/C's this season. There were only a couple instances where we ever had a SF playing PF and it was due to an absurd amount of injuries forcing Cliff to do so. I kind of feel like we are arguing technicalities at this point. I didn't set out to try to rail on Cliff or anything, but you asked for an example of his inflexibility and that was the most glaring thing that came to mind for me (its a fairly minor nitpick on my part). I'm very pleased with the job he did this season. One of the main reasons that I sometimes get frustrated at what I perceive as Cliff not being willing to go small is that every offseason he talks about playing some small ball with MKG (or Batum now) at PF and then he NEVER DOES IT. Hes such a tease.

Cody has two primary positions right now. On offense he needs to be a center because he is as scared to shoot as Hendo was from outside of 2 ft. On defense he needs to be a PF because he is just to soft to really defend the post consistently. He was a much better rim protector as a PF where he came as a help defender to block shots.

Marc can play both SF and PF and actually did better defending Joe Johnson at SF in the playoffs than Deng at PF although he did both better than just about anyone else we had. Would have been nice to have MKG on Johnson so Marv could take Deng and Frank could sit the pine.

Cody is really a small ball center because he moves so well and can defend on the perimeter. So when teams go small we still have a 7' in there and can defend, even if he doesn't have C reach because of his T-rex arms. Marv being a traditional small ball PF from the start helps. He is long but he really is a SF playing PF right now. We went small this year and it showed when we could not grab a rebound against Whiteside in the playoffs.

I agree with your assessment on Cody, but I still think Marv is a PF primarily. He plays the vast majority of his minutes at PF, his role is that of a stretch PF (ball screener/pnp, spot up shooting, rebounding, rim protection, interior defense, etc), he is the standard size of a PF, and he is simply better as a PF in the majority of matchups (although he can be effective as a SF sometimes). We are kind of splitting hairs at this point, as we agree he is either PF/SF or SF/PF, but we have a slightly different perspective.

My point was we kind of start in a small ball lineup with a tweeter at both big spots. We could go smaller but then lose the shooting touch we have with Williams on the floor.

[Braggins]

Cody has two primary positions right now. On offense he needs to be a center because he is as scared to shoot as Hendo was from outside of 2 ft. On defense he needs to be a PF because he is just to soft to really defend the post consistently. He was a much better rim protector as a PF where he came as a help defender to block shots.

Marc can play both SF and PF and actually did better defending Joe Johnson at SF in the playoffs than Deng at PF although he did both better than just about anyone else we had. Would have been nice to have MKG on Johnson so Marv could take Deng and Frank could sit the pine.

Cody is really a small ball center because he moves so well and can defend on the perimeter. So when teams go small we still have a 7' in there and can defend, even if he doesn't have C reach because of his T-rex arms. Marv being a traditional small ball PF from the start helps. He is long but he really is a SF playing PF right now. We went small this year and it showed when we could not grab a rebound against Whiteside in the playoffs.

I agree with your assessment on Cody, but I still think Marv is a PF primarily. He plays the vast majority of his minutes at PF, his role is that of a stretch PF (ball screener/pnp, spot up shooting, rebounding, rim protection, interior defense, etc), he is the standard size of a PF, and he is simply better as a PF in the majority of matchups (although he can be effective as a SF sometimes). We are kind of splitting hairs at this point, as we agree he is either PF/SF or SF/PF, but we have a slightly different perspective.

My point was we kind of start in a small ball lineup with a tweeter at both big spots. We could go smaller but then lose the shooting touch we have with Williams on the floor.

Thats fair.

If we bring back Lin and Batum I really want to see this lineup utilized next season: Kemba, Lin, MKG, Batum, Zeller/Frank.

[rallydurham]

I think mkg is definitely a modern power forward but the concern has been his injury risk banging down low.

I think the solution is to make him a 3 during the regular season and then playing him at the 4 and possibly 5 some during the playoffs.

I really wish we'd taken winslow. I think a lineup of kemba, batum, winslow, mkg, marvin would be very interesting.

Winslow jump shot should be there either next year or the year after... still not sure what happened this year he shot well in college.

Very encouraging shot charts from mkg this year in limited minutes.

Mkg as the screener in a frontcourt pairing with kaminsky has potential to be dynamite. Mkg is just too big for opposing pg to switch onto and you can't simply go under the screens on kemba anymore.

We could easily win 50+ next year if things fall into place

[LofJ]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/nba/charlotte-hornets/article83165837.html

Looks like MKG is 100% again. Who's ready for Michael Kidd-Gilchrist 2.0 next year?

[JDR720]

just dont dive on the floor so much

[HornetJail]

I think mkg is definitely a modern power forward but the concern has been his injury risk banging down low.

I think the solution is to make him a 3 during the regular season and then playing him at the 4 and possibly 5 some during the playoffs.

I really wish we'd taken winslow. I think a lineup of kemba, batum, winslow, mkg, marvin would be very interesting.

Winslow jump shot should be there either next year or the year after... still not sure what happened this year he shot well in college.

Very encouraging shot charts from mkg this year in limited minutes.

Mkg as the screener in a frontcourt pairing with kaminsky has potential to be dynamite. Mkg is just too big for opposing pg to switch onto and you can't simply go under the screens on kemba anymore.

We could easily win 50+ next year if things fall into place

I think the big thing is that we need a lineup against teams with bigger, stronger power forwards like Z-Bo, Blake, and Ibaka who can bang inside, and a lineup against teams with more perimeter oriented small-ball offenses like when someone like Barnes, Deng, or Ryan Anderson. We need a big-ball line-up against the first bunch, and a small-ball line-up against the second bunch. MKG can absolutely be a power forward against a small-ball 4.

[spaceballer]

just dont dive on the floor so much

It'll still happen. I think that hustle will always be part of his game, and it's part of why we like him so much.

[HornetJail]

just dont dive on the floor so much

It'll still happen. I think that hustle will always be part of his game, and it's part of why we like him so much.

It'll happen, but the dude needs to reign it in just a tiny bit. MKG hustling at 90% instead of destroying his body is still a top 3 perimeter defender in the NBA plus he'll play more. I hope he understands that by now.

[spaceballer]

Found this on the Hornets subreddit. MKG at National Stuttering Association event.

https://mobile.twitter.com/MKG14/status/751990554213412864

[Diop]

More than anything I wish for a reasonably healthy MKG season this year. Want him to show how good he is

[HornetJail]

More than anything I wish for a reasonably healthy MKG season this year. Want him to show how good he is

This x1000... I just want him out there playing.

With that said, we really need a backup defender that can step in when he inevitably does pick up an injury and misses a few games. We can't expect to plug in Jeremy Lamb or Aaron Harrison and have the same results.

[BigSlam]

More than anything I wish for a reasonably healthy MKG season this year. Want him to show how good he is

This x1000... I just want him out there playing.

With that said, we really need a backup defender that can step in when he inevitably does pick up an injury and misses a few games. We can't expect to plug in Jeremy Lamb or Aaron Harrison and have the same results.

Lamb has actually rebounded the ball very well.

He obviously doesn't play with the same kind of intensity or energy as MKG does though.

Not even close.


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