Discussing Other Teams' Moves Part 5

[LyricalRico]

A core of Noel/Simmons/Dunn is much more balanced than what they have now, but they would need to balance that with wings that can really shoot IMO. Maybe Beal? But If they're keeping Noel, that takes away the guy I'd be most interested in getting back.

I doubt the Sixers would deal Noel to S&T for Beal. I think it would be more likely that they offer the 24th or 26th pick.

Even with my distaste for a Beal max contract, a late first doesn't feel like enough. At the very least it would have to be Covington+Stauskas+24+26 for me to consider, but even then I'm not sure I want to go the "quantity instead of quality" route.

[verbal8]

A core of Noel/Simmons/Dunn is much more balanced than what they have now, but they would need to balance that with wings that can really shoot IMO. Maybe Beal? But If they're keeping Noel, that takes away the guy I'd be most interested in getting back.

I doubt the Sixers would deal Noel to S&T for Beal. I think it would be more likely that they offer the 24th or 26th pick.

Even with my distaste for a Beal max contract, a late first doesn't feel like enough. At the very least it would have to be Covington+Stauskas+24+26 for me to consider, but even then I'm not sure I want to go the "quantity instead of quality" route.

The return for Beal in a S&T won't be "full value". However on the plus side it also won't cost $100 million+.

[LyricalRico]

I doubt the Sixers would deal Noel to S&T for Beal. I think it would be more likely that they offer the 24th or 26th pick.

Even with my distaste for a Beal max contract, a late first doesn't feel like enough. At the very least it would have to be Covington+Stauskas+24+26 for me to consider, but even then I'm not sure I want to go the "quantity instead of quality" route.

The return for Beal in a S&T won't be "full value". However on the plus side it also won't cost $100 million+.

Forgot they also have Dario Saric waiting overseas, so maybe a cobbled together non-Noel package could work. And you're right - said package would still probably be preferable to maxing out Beal.

[verbal8]

Even with my distaste for a Beal max contract, a late first doesn't feel like enough. At the very least it would have to be Covington+Stauskas+24+26 for me to consider, but even then I'm not sure I want to go the "quantity instead of quality" route.

The return for Beal in a S&T won't be "full value". However on the plus side it also won't cost $100 million+.

Forgot they also have Dario Saric waiting overseas, so maybe a cobbled together non-Noel package could work. And you're right - said package would still probably be preferable to maxing out Beal.

The rights to Saric would be pretty good return in a S&T deal.

[payitforward]

...it's nice to have assets!

[fishercob]

The return for Beal in a S&T won't be "full value". However on the plus side it also won't cost $100 million+.

Forgot they also have Dario Saric waiting overseas, so maybe a cobbled together non-Noel package could work. And you're right - said package would still probably be preferable to maxing out Beal.

The rights to Saric would be pretty good return in a S&T deal.

They sure would. I also think Philly is one of the few or only teams that might actually pay for the rights to max Beal. They need to balance their roster and they need NBA talent. At the same time, I think they will be sensitive to blowing up "The Process" and trading young for (too) old. While Beal at the max will be an overpay in a vacuum, they are so far below the salary floor that they can easily afford it -- and it's the big picture that matters so much more than one individual deal. Beal about to turn (just) 23, so I think he fits with their overall growth plan. I don't think HInkie would want him, but the Colangelos just might.

So Saric could make sense; though I worry about a Fran Vazquez situation and how much it might ultimately cost to sign him if he waits out the rookie wage scale.

The other option would having them give Okafor and dangling him in a 3 way deal. I think Boston would be a prime target. There's got to be some combo of players and picks they'd give up for Okafor. I think they would value him from an asset standpoint. Given how they developed Al Jefferson and used him as a centerpiece for KG, I think they'd see value in bringing Okafor into their system with the hopes of making him part of their core OR in using him with other assets to tarde for a superstar down the line.

[payitforward]

Forgot they also have Dario Saric waiting overseas, so maybe a cobbled together non-Noel package could work. And you're right - said package would still probably be preferable to maxing out Beal.

The rights to Saric would be pretty good return in a S&T deal.

They sure would. I also think Philly is one of the few or only teams that might actually pay for the rights to max Beal. They need to balance their roster and they need NBA talent. At the same time, I think they will be sensitive to blowing up "The Process" and trading young for (too) old. While Beal at the max will be an overpay in a vacuum, they are so far below the salary floor that they can easily afford it -- and it's the big picture that matters so much more than one individual deal. Beal about to turn (just) 23, so I think he fits with their overall growth plan. I don't think HInkie would want him, but the Colangelos just might.

So Saric could make sense; though I worry about a Fran Vazquez situation and how much it might ultimately cost to sign him if he waits out the rookie wage scale.

The other option would having them give Okafor and dangling him in a 3 way deal. I think Boston would be a prime target. There's got to be some combo of players and picks they'd give up for Okafor. I think they would value him from an asset standpoint. Given how they developed Al Jefferson and used him as a centerpiece for KG, I think they'd see value in bringing Okafor into their system with the hopes of making him part of their core OR in using him with other assets to tarde for a superstar down the line.

Imagination is the great human faculty -- they give us Okafor and Saric for Beal. We trade Okafor for Boston's #3 and 31 picks. We get... oh who am I kidding!?

[fishercob]

The rights to Saric would be pretty good return in a S&T deal.

They sure would. I also think Philly is one of the few or only teams that might actually pay for the rights to max Beal. They need to balance their roster and they need NBA talent. At the same time, I think they will be sensitive to blowing up "The Process" and trading young for (too) old. While Beal at the max will be an overpay in a vacuum, they are so far below the salary floor that they can easily afford it -- and it's the big picture that matters so much more than one individual deal. Beal about to turn (just) 23, so I think he fits with their overall growth plan. I don't think HInkie would want him, but the Colangelos just might.

So Saric could make sense; though I worry about a Fran Vazquez situation and how much it might ultimately cost to sign him if he waits out the rookie wage scale.

The other option would having them give Okafor and dangling him in a 3 way deal. I think Boston would be a prime target. There's got to be some combo of players and picks they'd give up for Okafor. I think they would value him from an asset standpoint. Given how they developed Al Jefferson and used him as a centerpiece for KG, I think they'd see value in bringing Okafor into their system with the hopes of making him part of their core OR in using him with other assets to tarde for a superstar down the line.

Imagination is the great human faculty -- they give us Okafor and Saric for Beal. We trade Okafor for Boston's #3 and 31 picks. We get... oh who am I kidding!?

I was thinking more like Philly agrees to trade Okafor for Beal. They like EMbiid and Noel and think Saric is worth waiting for. Okafor got off to a rocky start adjusting to professional grown-up life, so he's the odd man out.

The Celtics don't have illusions that Okafor is going to be a generationally great big man. But he could be quite good and they think he's young enough that they can fit him into their fantastic culture, not rely on him to the point of putting too much pressure on him, and help him thrive. But they're not giving up the #3 pick for him.

So they give us Olynk, #16, #25 for Okafor. Perfectly defensible deal for the Celtics. They give up a good player a year away from free agency and two mid first rounders for the #3 pick in last year's draft who has yet to turn 21. They add that, the #3 pick in this year's draft and a boat load of cap space to a team that won 48 games. That's exciting for them.

The Wizards avoid maxing Beal, get a rotation-ready young big and 2 more young talents to stock the cupboard. What's not to like??

[verbal8]

They sure would. I also think Philly is one of the few or only teams that might actually pay for the rights to max Beal. They need to balance their roster and they need NBA talent. At the same time, I think they will be sensitive to blowing up "The Process" and trading young for (too) old. While Beal at the max will be an overpay in a vacuum, they are so far below the salary floor that they can easily afford it -- and it's the big picture that matters so much more than one individual deal. Beal about to turn (just) 23, so I think he fits with their overall growth plan. I don't think HInkie would want him, but the Colangelos just might.

So Saric could make sense; though I worry about a Fran Vazquez situation and how much it might ultimately cost to sign him if he waits out the rookie wage scale.

The other option would having them give Okafor and dangling him in a 3 way deal. I think Boston would be a prime target. There's got to be some combo of players and picks they'd give up for Okafor. I think they would value him from an asset standpoint. Given how they developed Al Jefferson and used him as a centerpiece for KG, I think they'd see value in bringing Okafor into their system with the hopes of making him part of their core OR in using him with other assets to tarde for a superstar down the line.

Imagination is the great human faculty -- they give us Okafor and Saric for Beal. We trade Okafor for Boston's #3 and 31 picks. We get... oh who am I kidding!?

I was thinking more like Philly agrees to trade Okafor for Beal. They like EMbiid and Noel and think Saric is worth waiting for. Okafor got off to a rocky start adjusting to professional grown-up life, so he's the odd man out.

The Celtics don't have illusions that Okafor is going to be a generationally great big man. But he could be quite good and they think he's young enough that they can fit him into their fantastic culture, not rely on him to the point of putting too much pressure on him, and help him thrive. But they're not giving up the #3 pick for him.

So they give us Olynk, #16, #25 for Okafor. Perfectly defensible deal for the Celtics. They give up a good player a year away from free agency and two mid first rounders for the #3 pick in last year's draft who has yet to turn 21. They add that, the #3 pick in this year's draft and a boat load of cap space to a team that won 48 games. That's exciting for them.

The Wizards avoid maxing Beal, get a rotation-ready young big and 2 more young talents to stock the cupboard. What's not to like??

Maybe the 16 goes to Philly if that is an overpay for Beal and underpay for Okafor.

[payitforward]

They sure would. I also think Philly is one of the few or only teams that might actually pay for the rights to max Beal. They need to balance their roster and they need NBA talent. At the same time, I think they will be sensitive to blowing up "The Process" and trading young for (too) old. While Beal at the max will be an overpay in a vacuum, they are so far below the salary floor that they can easily afford it -- and it's the big picture that matters so much more than one individual deal. Beal about to turn (just) 23, so I think he fits with their overall growth plan. I don't think HInkie would want him, but the Colangelos just might.

So Saric could make sense; though I worry about a Fran Vazquez situation and how much it might ultimately cost to sign him if he waits out the rookie wage scale.

The other option would having them give Okafor and dangling him in a 3 way deal. I think Boston would be a prime target. There's got to be some combo of players and picks they'd give up for Okafor. I think they would value him from an asset standpoint. Given how they developed Al Jefferson and used him as a centerpiece for KG, I think they'd see value in bringing Okafor into their system with the hopes of making him part of their core OR in using him with other assets to tarde for a superstar down the line.

Imagination is the great human faculty -- they give us Okafor and Saric for Beal. We trade Okafor for Boston's #3 and 31 picks. We get... oh who am I kidding!?

I was thinking more like Philly agrees to trade Okafor for Beal. They like EMbiid and Noel and think Saric is worth waiting for. Okafor got off to a rocky start adjusting to professional grown-up life, so he's the odd man out.

The Celtics don't have illusions that Okafor is going to be a generationally great big man. But he could be quite good and they think he's young enough that they can fit him into their fantastic culture, not rely on him to the point of putting too much pressure on him, and help him thrive. But they're not giving up the #3 pick for him.

So they give us Olynk, #16, #25 for Okafor. Perfectly defensible deal for the Celtics. They give up a good player a year away from free agency and two mid first rounders for the #3 pick in last year's draft who has yet to turn 21. They add that, the #3 pick in this year's draft and a boat load of cap space to a team that won 48 games. That's exciting for them.

The Wizards avoid maxing Beal, get a rotation-ready young big and 2 more young talents to stock the cupboard. What's not to like??

Oh agreed. But, Boston doesn't have #25, so you must mean #23 ?? But, why does Boston need us to do a deal w/ Philly?

If they do that same deal straight up between them, and then Philly gives Beal an offer, don't they have an awful lot of leverage with us in a sign and trade? Wouldn't they be able to give us e.g. Olynyk and their own #24 & #26 picks for example? Or maybe less?

[payitforward]

Oh, and do we really want Olynyk?

[fishercob]

Imagination is the great human faculty -- they give us Okafor and Saric for Beal. We trade Okafor for Boston's #3 and 31 picks. We get... oh who am I kidding!?

I was thinking more like Philly agrees to trade Okafor for Beal. They like EMbiid and Noel and think Saric is worth waiting for. Okafor got off to a rocky start adjusting to professional grown-up life, so he's the odd man out.

The Celtics don't have illusions that Okafor is going to be a generationally great big man. But he could be quite good and they think he's young enough that they can fit him into their fantastic culture, not rely on him to the point of putting too much pressure on him, and help him thrive. But they're not giving up the #3 pick for him.

So they give us Olynk, #16, #25 for Okafor. Perfectly defensible deal for the Celtics. They give up a good player a year away from free agency and two mid first rounders for the #3 pick in last year's draft who has yet to turn 21. They add that, the #3 pick in this year's draft and a boat load of cap space to a team that won 48 games. That's exciting for them.

The Wizards avoid maxing Beal, get a rotation-ready young big and 2 more young talents to stock the cupboard. What's not to like??

Oh agreed. But, Boston doesn't have #25, so you must mean #23 ?? But, why does Boston need us to do a deal w/ Philly?

If they do that same deal straight up between them, and then Philly gives Beal an offer, don't they have an awful lot of leverage with us in a sign and trade? Wouldn't they be able to give us e.g. Olynyk and their own #24 & #26 picks for example? Or maybe less?

I think Boston needs us because Philly would rather have Beal than more picks and another froncourt player. I think Philly and their fans would be *excited* for Beal in a fashion that fans are wont to do.

And yeah, I'd want Olynyk -- and then Valentine and Brice Johnson with those picks!

I think a cheap year ofOlynyk followed by his RFA rights are a good thing. He can play and we need players -- particularly guys who can shoot it.

[fishercob]

The fatal (and obvious -- DUH) flaw in my brilliant idea is the timing of the draft and free agency.

The good news is the C's have enough assets -- including future picks -- that this could well make sense post draft.

But the Wiz can't S&T Beal until the new league year starts, so that makes an unlikely scenario even less so.

[payitforward]

...But, why does Boston need us to do a deal w/ Philly?

If they do that same deal straight up between them, and then Philly gives Beal an offer, don't they have an awful lot of leverage with us in a sign and trade? Wouldn't they be able to give us e.g. Olynyk and their own #24 & #26 picks for example? Or maybe less?

I think Boston needs us because Philly would rather have Beal than more picks and another froncourt player....

Agreed, but my point was that they'd follow up the trade w/ Boston by giving Beal an offer. When that led to a sign and trade discussion they'd wind up giving up less than in your 3-way scenario.

[payitforward]

The fatal (and obvious -- DUH) flaw in my brilliant idea is the timing of the draft and free agency.

The good news is the C's have enough assets -- including future picks -- that this could well make sense post draft.

But the Wiz can't S&T Beal until the new league year starts, so that makes an unlikely scenario even less so.

Oh who cares about the rules! Just do it anyway....

[fishercob]

Dub postage

[fishercob]

...But, why does Boston need us to do a deal w/ Philly?

If they do that same deal straight up between them, and then Philly gives Beal an offer, don't they have an awful lot of leverage with us in a sign and trade? Wouldn't they be able to give us e.g. Olynyk and their own #24 & #26 picks for example? Or maybe less?

I think Boston needs us because Philly would rather have Beal than more picks and another froncourt player....

Agreed, but my point was that they'd follow up the trade w/ Boston by giving Beal an offer. When that led to a sign and trade discussion they'd wind up giving up less than in your 3-way scenario.

This is where the Wizards have some leverage because they could match the offer. Not that they (in this imaginary scenario) would want to -- or that we would want them to. But there's a lot of poker being played here. The advantage of this trade is the certainty that it brings -- to all parties.

[verbal8]

This column claims if Lebron wins a championship he could leave Cleveland without being a universal villain.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/lebron-james--golden-ticket-083357630.html

I don't really see him leaving after a championship. I think he would be seen in Cleveland as having denied them a chance at a dynasty or at least a run at continual contention.

Thinking about it a little more, I guess there might be a scenario where if they win and then decline for a season or two - he could get a pass on chasing a championship again.

[LyricalRico]

Was just reading the same article, verbal. Here's the part that I agree with:

Yes, James could come back to Cleveland and defend a potential Cavaliers title in 2017 and proceed to join the run of superstar pals in free agency: Chris Paul and Kevin Durant. They can wait one more year for Carmelo Anthony in 2018. Or, Golden State wins Game 7, and maybe James gives Cleveland the championship in 2017 – and makes his move then.

I don't doubt that he opts out to get a bigger salary for next year, but looking at the rest of the league, there's really not an obvious move for him to make this summer other than stick with Cleveland for another run. Especially considering that they can move Love to get better fits around LeBron.

Now if they were to win the title on Sunday, but then not repeat next year, I could seem him being willing to look around in 2017. But then again, having won a title in Cleveland he could play the role Dwayne Wade played in Miami as the already-peaked-star who is inviting other guys without rings to join him.

[payitforward]

Was just reading the same article, verbal. Here's the part that I agree with:

Yes, James could come back to Cleveland and defend a potential Cavaliers title in 2017 and proceed to join the run of superstar pals in free agency: Chris Paul and Kevin Durant. They can wait one more year for Carmelo Anthony in 2018. Or, Golden State wins Game 7, and maybe James gives Cleveland the championship in 2017 – and makes his move then.

I don't doubt that he opts out to get a bigger salary for next year, but looking at the rest of the league, there's really not an obvious move for him to make this summer other than stick with Cleveland for another run. Especially considering that they can move Love to get better fits around LeBron.

Now if they were to win the title on Sunday, but then not repeat next year, I could seem him being willing to look around in 2017. But then again, having won a title in Cleveland he could play the role Dwayne Wade played in Miami as the already-peaked-star who is inviting other guys without rings to join him.

Lebron is a billionaire. He's also a brand. Whatever he and his advisors decide he should do next, it'll have to do with raising the value of that brand, which dwarfs his NBA salary. I can't see why the small delta he can get in NBA salary would have much of a role in that decision.