Horford won't sign a Contract Extension before next summer

[nybluemeadow]

The claim was he was lost for "nothing". That's is completely refuted because cap space (or insurance payments) is not nothing, I have no interest in any other excuses being made when the crux of the argument has already been dismantled.

I, respectfully, disagree.

We lost AL Horford for nothing in return.

The same way OKC lost Durant for nothing in return.

The same way POR lost Aldridge for nothing in return.

The same way MIA lost LeBron for nothing in return.

I hope we have learned enough from those scenarios that we don't lose Millsap for nothing. An expiring Teague got the #12 pick in the draft. An expiring Kevin Love got the #1 pick in the draft. An expiring Ibaka got the #11 pick in the draft.

I'd hope we could get something in between.

OKC blew it because their are no big time free agents left to be signed

Portland didn't sign Dwight after LMA left

Miami signed Deng after Lebron left. and Lebron > Deng


Hawks got Millsap after Josh left. Millsap > Josh

Hawks got Dwight after Al Horford left. Dwight >Horford


All your points invalid and not the same. You are just making your argument even weaker.

[atlantabbq99]

Wasn't Josh Smith lost for nothing, but then the Hawks ended up using his cap space to sign Paul Millsap, who is 3X the player Josh Smith is?

You know using logic and making good points like this has no affect on some people on the internet.

[atlantabbq99]

Wasn't Josh Smith lost for nothing, but then the Hawks ended up using his cap space to sign Paul Millsap, who is 3X the player Josh Smith is?

Ummm...kind of.

We had dumped Joe Johnson, Marvin Williams and let Devin Harris & Josh Smith walk away. Meaning, we could have traded Josh Smith and still afforded Paul Millsap.

Which is ultimately my point:

Paul Millsap + a draft pick > just Paul Millsap

LOL, thanks for making my point even stronger. I just said that the only way a trade could have worked out and still gotten Dwight was by only taking draft picks in return and not any salaries. which would never happen.

[atlantabbq99]

Bradley is a PG/SG - Baze is SG/SF

Bingo.

A trade for Bradley soves our need at backup PG, starting SG, saves us millions on a Bazemore overpay.

This opens up minutes at SF for Taurean Prince, Korver and Thabo.

... Hawks had both Teague and Schroeder ...

[MaceCase]

And stop trying to twist the narrative to fit your agenda.

The status quo needed to be shaken up and they did.

Oy. I know the status quo needed to be shaken up. I've literally been calling for it for YEARS.


And they're not my words:

The rumor was that the Hawks aren’t willing to give [Horford] around $25 million per season, meaning the team now risks losing him for nothing in free agency.

Here

Oy vey

Then why kvetch when it actually occurs?

You are looking at speculation by individual writers while ignoring the actions of the actual front office. You will focus on whatever fits your narrative and miss the entire picture, worse, you will focus on whatever minuscule possibility and make that the entirety of all possibilities.

These are facts:

1) The Hawks offered more than 25 mil a year to Horford. Clearly they were willing on that front.

2) If the Hawks were truly in fear of "losing him for nothing" then they would have gone that extra mile in his contract offer. They didn't.

3) With the money that was allocated for him they already pursued and secured his replacement well before they entered deeper negotiations.

I'd say take that for what it is but we all know that you will take it for how you want to.

[Jamaaliver]

Wow...just wow.

I honestly couldn't fathom that a max player walking away from a team wouldn't be considered a setback.

Especially since this was the concern, and recognized universally so, months before he hit Free Agency:

The Hawks are expected to listen to teams that inquire about Horford because they don't want to risk losing him for nothing, league sources said.

Yahoo Sports

Moving him would be a massive step back... but so would losing him in free agency.

CBS Sports

The odds that the Hawks explore Horford trades are pretty low, but given his pending unrestricted free agency there is a risk that the Hawks could lose him to free agency for nothing in return[/color.

Basketball Insiders

Part of the reason Horford was mentioned in so many trade deals was because of his expiring contract and Atlanta's fear of losing him for nothing in return.

Here

Horford is not guaranteed to come back next season. He'll be an unrestricted free agent this summer...they'll get nothing in return for one of the NBA's premier big men.

Here

[MaceCase]

All moot. All speculation by writers that have zero access into the Hawks front office and therefore no actual insight.

If what they said were actually true then why no move at the deadline? Why no report of the Hawks being prepared to give Al everything he wanted? Why no mad scramble beginning Sunday instead of free agency basically having been set by Friday?

[Jamaaliver]

LOL, thanks for making my point even stronger. I just said that the only way a trade could have worked out and still gotten Dwight was by only taking draft picks in return and not any salaries. which would never happen.

...unless a team sent an expiring contract to balance the trade for salary purposes and a draft pick.

... Hawks had both Teague and Schroeder ...

We were literally shopping each of our PGs at the trade deadline. Teague and Schroder included.

[Jamaaliver]

All moot. All speculation by writers that have zero access into the Hawks front office and therefore no actual insight.

If what they said were actually true then why no move at the deadline? Why no report of the Hawks being prepared to give Al everything he wanted? Why no mad scramble beginning Sunday instead of free agency basically having been set by Friday?

Of course national/local sports reporters have insight into our front office.

it's how we knew of interest in Dwight from the start. The specifics of the meeting with D12. The specific offers we made to AL.

The potential trade of Millsap.


Are we simply saying no one anywhere has any insight into anything?

Oh, my.

[Jamaaliver]

Universally acknowledged:

The only problem with seeing the season out is that Al Horford could walk away for nothing in the summer without the Hawks receiving anything in return. It’s a high risk but potentially low reward for the Hawks if they can’t pull it together in the playoffs.

Hawks Hoop

The question is, are the Hawks willing to outbid their competition with a five-year, $130 million max contract to keep Horford around? Or are they willing to lose him on the open market and get nothing in return...

[MaceCase]

They don't.

Hawks have had a no leaks policy dating to Ferry. If you hear something it's from an agent or opposing front offices or writer speculating on what they think. Not one, and I mean not one single outside source has even purported that their speculation has come out of the Hawks camp.

And again, if the actions of the Hawks fly in the direct face of speculation......what does that tell you?

[Jamaaliver]

... Hawks had both Teague and Schroeder ...

Read on Twitter

And both those guys were being shopped elsewhere...

[Jamaaliver]

They don't.

Hawks have had a no leaks policy dating to Ferry. If you hear something it's from an agent or opposing front offices or writer speculating on what they think. Not one, and I mean not one single outside source has even purported that their speculation has come out of the Hawks camp.

And again, if the actions of the Hawks fly in the direct face of speculation......what does that tell you?

I honestly don't know what else to say. This forums is filled with quotes/wshispers/rumors that include league sources and sources within the team.

And it seems our initial debate has moved from: "Losing a top player in Free Agency for nothing is bad" to "Hawks are good at keeping secrets from reporters".

I, respectfully, adamantly, disagree. I respect your opinion.

But I re-iterate my initial statement: I hope we don't make the same mistake with Millsap we just made with Horford.

And with Teague, Millsap, Demarre and Horford are all gone...the rebuild will undeniably be set to begin.

[Jamaaliver]

They don't.

Hawks have had a no leaks policy dating to Ferry. If you hear something it's from an agent or opposing front offices or writer speculating on what they think. Not one, and I mean not one single outside source has even purported that their speculation has come out of the Hawks camp.

Read on Twitter

People inside our Hawks organization leak stuff all the time...

Both ownership factions attempted to manipulate the situation by leaking out information about one side or the other — but always with the comfort of anonymity, of course. I can personally tell you that I told one side I would only talk to them if it was on the record. They never called me again.

Here

[MaceCase]

Vivlamore is the only one with even an ounce of credibility due to the fact he's actually employed specifically to follow the team and look at the best he has to offer......."The Hawks are talking to people and might maybe make a deal or won't make a deal."

But er, some national writer who doesn't even have Atlanta on his radar is offering up specifics.

Again, look at the actions. Tap dance all that you want but look at the actions. I know facts are not a strong point of yours but the truth is there. The thread hasn't been derailed by anyone but typical "Jamaal believes that his heavily refuted opinion is right".

[Jamaaliver]

Vivlamore is the only one with even an ounce of credibility due to the fact he's actually employed specifically to follow the team and look at the best he has to offer......."The Hawks are talking to people and might maybe make a deal or won't make a deal."

But er, some national writer who doesn't even have Atlanta on his radar is offering up specifics.

Again, look at the actions. Tap dance all that you want but look at the actions. I know facts are not a strong point of yours but the truth is there. The thread hasn't been derailed by anyone but typical "Jamaal believes that his heavily refuted opinion is right".

What are you talking about? You keep changing the argument at every turn.

This isn't some heavily opinion: your best player leaving in Free Agency when you want to keep him is bad. This isn't even up for debate.

And the Hawks front office just gave an expose to national writers about the inner workings and failures of the previous regime:

Claws out: How a Hawks regime fell


This is the story, based on conversations with more than 25 sources close to the situation, of how the Hawks' regime was torn apart.

Sent from my iPad using RealGM Forums

[MaceCase]

This isn't some heavily opinion: your best player leaving in Free Agency when you want to keep him is bad. This isn't even up for debate.

None of those things happened.

[Jamaaliver]

This isn't some heavily opinion: your best player leaving in Free Agency when you want to keep him is bad. This isn't even up for debate.

None of those things happened.

Well then it begs the question: why was Bud/Wes so adamant on keeping Horford next to Howard and moving Millsap in trade?

[MaceCase]

They weren't adamant, they saw it as an option. If they were adamant they would not have stopped over a measly 6 million.

Oh, brother.

[Jamaaliver]

They weren't adamant, they saw it as an option. If they were adamant they would not have stopped over a measly 6 million.

Oh, brother.

Now, you're reaching.

I'll leave it at this, plainly stated and put a pin in the debate for now. I'm sure this issue will arise again soon with regards to Millsap. And the same line of thinking will apply:

Losing a top player for nothing in return is bad. It is a cardinal sin and will set a franchise back for years. We did it with Dominique/Danny Manning.

We did it with Horford.

I hope we don't do it with Paul.