Best Athlete: Kevin Durant vs. Anthony Davis vs. Giannis Antetokounmpo

[MyUniBroDavis]

Davis also had a 35.5 inch vertical... As a rookie.

And clearly it's gone up since then.

I couldn't find Davis vert numbers on draft express, do you have a link?

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Anthony-Davis-6236/

Keep in mind, he was leaning, and his hand was clearly above of the square at the height of his jump... With his elbow bent.

Which part of the video was I supposed to be watching?

[quoteDurant has a 33.5 inch vertical.
Gianni's has the highest vertical, at 44 inches

Do you have a source for Giannis 44 inch vert?

Considering how Davis is literally 25+ pounds heavier than the both of them, I think that Davis wins in explosiveness.

I'm pretty sure Davis isn't 25 pounds heavier than either of them.[/quote]


1)

I saw it on this article, but draft express deleted it or something
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1230478-anthony-davis-comparing-projected-no-1-pick-to-nba-stars

2) just look up Gianni's verticle. I can't find a solid link but everywhere says he has a 40ish one. I mistyped 42 btw.

3)
http://www.nba.com/pelicans/news/anthony-davis-253-pounds-while-maintaining-athletic-frame/

I got Durante weight wrong though, but Gianni's was pretty much,

[NO-KG-AI]

Like I said, I don't know what Davis or Giannis' vertical is, because I don't trust these eyewitness accounts that are unrecorded. Max vertica doesn't mean a ton anyway. Someone like Russell Westbrook didn't even record 37" iirc, but the dude explodes like few others ever could. These guys get so high and are so tall that the max doesn't matter, it's how you do it in traffic and with your body not in perfect place to get to your highest. The reason why someone like Gerald Green can be a taller, better leaper in a vacuum, but he can't use his leaping to effect a game in nearly the way a Westbrook can.

DeAndre Jordan is a fantastic blend of size/athleticism. Coming out of high school there was a ton of talk of him being number 1, and a franchise player in the Dwight Howard vain, until it became apparent that his skillset and mindset weren't at that level. Still, he's had a pretty big impact and some monster performances almost solely based on physical tools.


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[MyUniBroDavis]

Like I said, I don't know what Davis or Giannis' vertical is, because I don't trust these eyewitness accounts that are unrecorded. Max vertica doesn't mean a ton anyway. Someone like Russell Westbrook didn't even record 37" iirc, but the dude explodes like few others ever could. These guys get so high and are so tall that the max doesn't matter, it's how you do it in traffic and with your body not in perfect place to get to your highest. The reason why someone like Gerald Green can be a taller, better leaper in a vacuum, but he can't use his leaping to effect a game in nearly the way a Westbrook can.

DeAndre Jordan is a fantastic blend of size/athleticism. Coming out of high school there was a ton of talk of him being number 1, and a franchise player in the Dwight Howard vain, until it became apparent that his skillset and mindset weren't at that level. Still, he's had a pretty big impact and some monster performances almost solely based on physical tools.


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For someone like Westbrook, I'm pretty sure he just got a better vertical as time went on lol. I get what you are saying though

[Whirrun]

Yea when you are a perimeter player you have to take 2 more dribbles in traffic after the move. Anthony Davis uses crossovers, stepbacks, spin moves, he just does them closer to the basket so he doesn't have to dribble as much.

He's performing these moves against bigs, against whom he generally has an athletic advantage. Not against perimeter players ala Durant breaking down Paul George, LeBron James, or Kawhi Leonard.

This is like saying Kawhi Leonard or Andrew Wiggins don't move like guards because they primarily post and face up from 15 on offense.

Neither Leonard nor Wiggins play primarily from the post.

[NO-KG-AI]

Like I said, I don't know what Davis or Giannis' vertical is, because I don't trust these eyewitness accounts that are unrecorded. Max vertica doesn't mean a ton anyway. Someone like Russell Westbrook didn't even record 37" iirc, but the dude explodes like few others ever could. These guys get so high and are so tall that the max doesn't matter, it's how you do it in traffic and with your body not in perfect place to get to your highest. The reason why someone like Gerald Green can be a taller, better leaper in a vacuum, but he can't use his leaping to effect a game in nearly the way a Westbrook can.

DeAndre Jordan is a fantastic blend of size/athleticism. Coming out of high school there was a ton of talk of him being number 1, and a franchise player in the Dwight Howard vain, until it became apparent that his skillset and mindset weren't at that level. Still, he's had a pretty big impact and some monster performances almost solely based on physical tools.


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For someone like Westbrook, I'm pretty sure he just got a better vertical as time went on lol. I get what you are saying though

I'm sure he has, but he's always been a fantastic leaper, and a lot of guys gain some vertical when they get proper diet and weight training by the best of the best. That said, I don't think he went from like 36" to 46".


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[SlowPaced]

This thread was off to a bad start, and then it got absolutely insane. People arguing AD is a big man so he's not as athletic as guys who play on the perimeter. AD is an absolute anomaly for a big man. He doesn't move like a big man. He doesn't have the handles to create on the perimeter, but that's it. KD and Giannis' handles give people the impression that they move around quicker. They don't. If you want to compare their athleticism without the bias of flashy perimeter play, look at how they move on defense. AD is clearly the better athlete.

At least the poll gives the credit where it's due.

[Whirrun]

This thread was off to a bad start, and then it got absolutely insane. People arguing AD is a big man so he's not as athletic as guys who play on the perimeter. AD is an absolute anomaly for a big man. He doesn't move like a big man. He doesn't have the handles to create on the perimeter, but that's it. KD and Giannis' handles give people the impression that they move around quicker. They don't. If you want to compare their athleticism without the bias of flashy perimeter play, look at how they move on defense. AD is clearly the better athlete.

At least the poll gives the credit where it's due.

But KD is a definitively better perimeter defender as well so that narrative doesn't hold weight.

Basically, just about anything from finishing ability to perimeter defense that people have tried to point out as advantages in favor of Davis aren't actually advantages he possesses. Don't really think we need you telling us how "bad" the thread started as if you're some fountain of knowledge.

[SlowPaced]

This thread was off to a bad start, and then it got absolutely insane. People arguing AD is a big man so he's not as athletic as guys who play on the perimeter. AD is an absolute anomaly for a big man. He doesn't move like a big man. He doesn't have the handles to create on the perimeter, but that's it. KD and Giannis' handles give people the impression that they move around quicker. They don't. If you want to compare their athleticism without the bias of flashy perimeter play, look at how they move on defense. AD is clearly the better athlete.

At least the poll gives the credit where it's due.

But KD is a definitively better perimeter defender as well so that narrative doesn't hold weight.

Basically, just about anything from finishing ability to perimeter defense that people have tried to point out as advantages in favor of Davis aren't actually advantages he possesses. Don't really think we need you telling us how "bad" the thread started as if you're some fountain of knowledge.

Where the hell did you get "perimeter defense" from this? There are things in my post about being able to create from the perimeter. And then there's something about defense. But there's nothing about "perimeter defense". Do you pick a couple of words from the posts people made, lump those words together and pretend that's what they said?

People don't at all point out finishing ability and perimeter defense for AD's strengths. They're pointing out his quickness, explosiveness, reaction speed and leaping ability.

Arguments you've made against AD in the last page are so ludicrous and off the mark that it's obvious that you don't even watch the guy play. "He doesn't have the explosiveness to get by defenders", "he doesn't have the body balance". Good lord. These two things are the FIRST things you'd put forward when talking about AD's strengths as an athlete. AD catches the stupid off balance passes better than almost everyone else in the league at the moment. He's an incredibly coordinated athlete.

[The-Power]

I mean, Giannis is a 6'10 PG with the length of a center for crying out loud.

Not to be petty but he's actually 6'11 by now. 7'3 wingspan and freakishly sized hands (measured 12 inches, bigger than Kawhi's).

[freewhitemoon]

Giannis does not have a 44 inch vertical - this is very clear from both the eye test and also he measured a 12'2 max reach. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2471358-greek-freak-giannis-antetokounmpo-shows-off-122-max-vertical-reach

Based on his height and wingspan I'd estimate his standing reach to be in the range of 9'2-9'3 which would give him about a 35-36 inch vert. Vertical tests in a controlled environment are pretty useless anyway, it's more important how quickly you can get off the floor.

From a Bucks fan, KD has a clear edge in explosiveness - the guy is really an underrated athlete. Giannis dosent have close to his first step but in the open court they seem pretty close. Giannis has a better frame than KD does though and has been gaining strength every offseason. It's harder to compare Anthony Davis to these two since he plays a different role and dosent handle the ball as much.

[AussieBuck]

] If Giannis were as athletic as Davis he'd have a similar impact on the game.

Exactly, and he's not even in the ballpark right now, so Giannis' superfan club is going to have to admit he's either not as athletic, or Davis is just way smarter and more skilled.

What I've gotten from this board is that Giannis is more gifted in every area. Athleticism, skills, and IQ.

Giannis being compared to both KG and now Davis really has you at the end of your tether eh?

[Whirrun]

Where the hell did you get "perimeter defense" from this?

"If you want to compare their athleticism without the bias of flashy perimeter play, look at how they move on defense. AD is clearly the better athlete." - You

On defense, Davis plays like a big because he moves like a big. Durant plays like a perimeter player because he moves like a perimeter player, hence what was so special about his defense in the western conference finals. Not only was he able to effectively switch onto Curry & Thompson, but he was also able to sink into the paint, defend the rim, grab the loose ball and initiate(and finish) the break.

When & where has Davis shown this?

Watch on YouTube

There are things in my post about being able to create from the perimeter. And then there's something about defense. But there's nothing about "perimeter defense". Do you pick a couple of words from the posts people made, lump those words together and pretend that's what they said?

Why are you acting as if you provided some grand defensive analysis that was poorly interrupted? All you said was "look at how they move". What does that even mean?

People don't at all point out finishing ability and perimeter defense for AD's strengths. They're pointing out his quickness, explosiveness, reaction speed and leaping ability.

And other people have pointed out, without a rebuttal from the opposing side, that AD lags behind KD & Giannis in these respects and that his athletic profile more so compares to traditional bigs like Deandre Jordan, Blake Griffin, & Andre Drummond.

Davis doesn't have this in his game, he simply lacks the athletic qualities:

Watch on YouTube

Arguments you've made against AD in the last page are so ludicrous and off the mark that it's obvious that you don't even watch the guy play.

Then those arguments should be easy for you to refute. Good luck!

"He doesn't have the explosiveness to get by defenders" "he doesn't have the body balance". Good lord. These two things are the FIRST things you'd put forward when talking about AD's strengths as an athlete. AD catches the stupid off balance passes better than almost everyone else in the league at the moment. He's an incredibly coordinated athlete.

If you believe Davis has the explosiveness & body control to play from the perimeter, then prove it.

[NO-KG-AI]

] If Giannis were as athletic as Davis he'd have a similar impact on the game.

Exactly, and he's not even in the ballpark right now, so Giannis' superfan club is going to have to admit he's either not as athletic, or Davis is just way smarter and more skilled.

What I've gotten from this board is that Giannis is more gifted in every area. Athleticism, skills, and IQ.

Giannis being compared to both KG and now Davis really has you at the end of your tether eh?

About as badly as the Anthony Randolph craze did. There is always a ball handling tall guy that gets compared to players that are substantially better than him on both ends, to some varying degree. There is always a guy that is supposedly taller, more athletic, more skilled, and higher IQ than some of the most statistically dominant players ever, yet he's a decidedly average or below player.

It's par for course for RealGM. I've seen it a lot. Lots of practice phenoms with unsubstantiated mind blowing numbers or measurements that no one has proof of. Giannis isn't the first young guy to get a bit overrated by his fans, and he won't be the last.

In all seriousness, some people think he's the most athletic of this group, and he's more skilled than Davis (but less than Durant). Someone has to explain to me why he's a substantially worse player than the other two if that's the case.

I hate to dumb it down to this, but I think my explanation is the simplest, and bares out in the numbers:

Durant is the least explosive athlete, but the most highly skilled in terms of offense (by a lot really). His numbers at the combine, and his athleticism markers(Things like rebounds, blocks, steals, dunks have always bore that out). He's a decent, fluid athlete for 6'11, but he's absolutely all time great in terms of skills at that height and length.

Davis is the least skilled in terms of ball handling and passing creativity by a lot here, but he's the most explosive and dominant athlete. And again, it bares out in the athleticism markers, and he's able to use that athleticism gap and a jump shot to be a substantially more dominant player on both ends and the glass than Giannis, but Durant is still the best offensive player by a fair margin.

Giannis isn't all time great in either athleticism or offensive skill set, but he's probably 2nd place in both, but the other guys stand out as the best in the league or close to it in their respective strength. Sometimes it's better to be dominant in one facet and a little weaker in the other as opposed to the jack of all trades.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Giannis does not have a 44 inch vertical - this is very clear from both the eye test and also he measured a 12'2 max reach. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2471358-greek-freak-giannis-antetokounmpo-shows-off-122-max-vertical-reach

Based on his height and wingspan I'd estimate his standing reach to be in the range of 9'2-9'3 which would give him about a 35-36 inch vert. Vertical tests in a controlled environment are pretty useless anyway, it's more important how quickly you can get off the floor.

From a Bucks fan, KD has a clear edge in explosiveness - the guy is really an underrated athlete. Giannis dosent have close to his first step but in the open court they seem pretty close. Giannis has a better frame than KD does though and has been gaining strength every offseason. It's harder to compare Anthony Davis to these two since he plays a different role and dosent handle the ball as much.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=337178

Not sure if it's true though

[NO-KG-AI]

Another thing I will say that is underrated about Durant. He's strong as hell. He's never had any strength related issues that I can recall, despite looking like a stick, and not being able to hit 1 rep of 185 pounds

[freewhitemoon]

I don't know how you can compare Durant and AD but come away with AD being the clearly better athlete and Durant the "least explosive" of the 3. AD and Durant are both 6'11 despite playing different positions. Durant's explosiveness is unreal for that height, he has the first step of a guard. He runs the floor better than AD and has much better lateral quickness. Maybe AD stands out a little more since he is a PF/C and is competing against slower bigs but there is no question that Durant is the quicker and more agile athlete.

AD is an elite athlete for a big, Durant is an elite athlete for a wing. Make AD play the 3 and he has trouble staying in front of other athletic wing players

[NO-KG-AI]

I don't know how you can compare Durant and AD but come away with AD being the clearly better athlete and Durant the "least explosive" of the 3. AD and Durant are both 6'11 despite playing different positions. Durant's explosiveness is unreal for that height, he has the first step of a guard. He runs the floor better than AD and has much better lateral quickness. Maybe AD stands out a little more since he is a PF/C and is competing against slower bigs but there is no question that Durant is the quicker and more agile athlete.

The thing about "running the floor" and stuff like that is that Durant doesn't run the floor faster than AD, and that's actually been measured and observed with numbers. KD was one of the slowest guys running the floor in his own draft. I'm sure he's faster with a live dribble, but that has less to do with pure athleticism and more to do with skillset. He was poor as a leaper too, I don't think he's close to Davis in pure leaping. His athleticism being mediocre ended up not mattering offensively because he's so long and skilled, but it's definitely kept him from becoming a game changer on the glass or in the paint defensively.

Davis just flat out explodes up and forward in short areas a lot better, that's why he can close distance to block shots in the paint and on the perimeter, get rebounds, create steals, or get more dunks than Durant can.

[freewhitemoon]

The thing about "running the floor" and stuff like that is that Durant doesn't run the floor faster than AD, and that's actually been measured and observed with numbers. KD was one of the slowest guys running the floor in his own draft. I'm sure he's faster with a live dribble, but that has less to do with pure athleticism and more to do with skillset. He was poor as a leaper too, I don't think he's close to Davis in pure leaping. His athleticism being mediocre ended up not mattering offensively because he's so long and skilled, but it's definitely kept him from becoming a game changer on the glass or in the paint defensively.

Davis just flat out explodes up and forward in short areas a lot better, that's why he can close distance to block shots in the paint and on the perimeter, get rebounds, create steals, or get more dunks than Durant can.

Combine numbers have time and again proven useless in terms of judging athleticism. Who cares how fast he can run or how high he can jump in a controlled environment? I'm sure there are guys who have measured faster 3/4 sprint times than Westbrook/Rose/John Wall. Are you also going to claim that their speed with the ball is more to do with skillset than pure athleticism? Blake Griffin and Kevin Love measured a similar max vert to show you what those numbers are worth.

Another thing I will say that is underrated about Durant. He's strong as hell. He's never had any strength related issues that I can recall, despite looking like a stick, and not being able to hit 1 rep of 185 pounds

You even said so yourself, he's strong af despite not being able to bench anything at the combine.

Davis just flat out explodes up and forward in short areas a lot better, that's why he can close distance to block shots in the paint and on the perimeter, get rebounds, create steals, or get more dunks than Durant can.

None of those stats are really definitive indicators of who is more athletic. Do you really expect a guy who plays 50% of his minutes at the center position to not have more rebounds, dunks, blocks than a wing player?

[NO-KG-AI]

If there is one thing that isn't really effected by a "controlled" environment, it's how fast you can run in a straight line. Kevin Durant isn't special, or even good in that regard. He is with the ball, that's a different issue.

Playing closer to the basket will help, but Durant would play closer to the basket if he were capable of it defensively. You think teams wouldn't love for him to be able to get double digit rebounds and 3 blocks or more night in and night out?

I don't usually compare those types of numbers for different types of players, but they're similar height , and Durant is in your view the best athlete of the bunch clearly, so are his teams completely wasting his potential in the paint defensively? I could see why you'd leave him on the perimeter offensively, but if he has the ability to anchor a defense and they have him guarding the perimeter, that's an issue. I don't think he has the body strength or athletic ability to compete down low for boards, challenging shots, or punching the ball out that Davis does, and nothing at any point in his career shows otherwise.

PS, Kevin Garnett spent the majority of his formative years as a small forward, and was still a substantially better rebounder, shot blocker, and ball thief, even when operating from the perimeter than Durant has been. It's not a positional gap, and it's not KD being lazy or not aware defensively. It's a gap in explosiveness that he can't make up. Like I said, lucky for him(or not lucky, since he put the hours in), he's got the offensive skill set to be an MVP level player.

FYI, Dirk Nowitzki creates from the 3 point line and out better than Davis does too.

[freewhitemoon]

PS, Kevin Garnett spent the majority of his formative years as a small forward, and was still a substantially better rebounder, shot blocker, and ball thief, even when operating from the perimeter than Durant has been. It's not a positional gap, and it's not KD being lazy or not aware defensively. It's a gap in explosiveness that he can't make up. Like I said, lucky for him(or not lucky, since he put the hours in), he's got the offensive skill set to be an MVP level player.

So... we just gonna make stuff up now?

Regardless, a little more explosiveness dosent turn KD from no all-defense selections to an all time great defender like KG. Why is KG even being brought up? Amazing the type of gymnastics you are doing to argue that Anthony Davis' higher blocks and rebounds somehow means he is a better athlete than KD.