PG Thread: Only Reason To Watch This Year Is KP6

[IllmaticHandler]

If you ask me "iso" Melo is the best version of Melo. The only problem with iso Melo is when he becomes a black hole or forcing it. Iso does not equal black hole. It seems some fans think it does. Where Melo falters a lot is that 99 % of Melo's NBA career he has had to be the Anchor of the offense and usually has the most burden on the teams he is on.The reality is that when Melo feels more comfortable with the new players, you will see the "Olympic" Melo more. Melo likes to pass more than people give him credit for. Melo is NOT a catch and shoot player I don't care how much people think he is not the same player he used to be. People underestimate how EASY it is to play with the players that he plays with in the Olympics. People act like those are not All Star Teams in the Olympics.I never seen an All Star game where the players are really struggling to play with each other on offense.

Melo has always been a black hole with the ball. Once the ball gets to him, it sticks. He just got his career high of 4 assists per game last year. Even the All Time Chuckers (early MJ, Kobe, Iverson, etc) passed the ball more than that. When Jordan was taking 25 shots a game, he would still get you 5 or 6 assists. Melo can only do that when he really limits his shots for the game.

It is what it is with him.

you going to compare the teams that MJ Kobe played vs Melo teams. Im sorry, Kobe and MJ had MUCH better players to pass to than he had on Denver and on the Knicks up until KP came. Like i said, most of his so called Black hole is from not trusting his teammates to do the job. its why when Melo plays in the olympics you see a different version of him, he trusts who he is passing to. If MJ and Kobe had the teams he had, you would not even see the so called better assist numbers. You can easily get six assists a game when there is people you can depend on NIGHTLY. Why do you think a player like Draymond can rack up so many dimes...looks who he gives the rock to. There is a REASON why MJ PASSED up the last shot to give it to kerr to win a FINALS. He trusted his ability...you think if Kerr was a scrub he would have passed to him? Hell no Same goes with Kobe.He has ALWAYS have had veery good players to pass to in his best years. A.I. was a chuck master cause his teams were trash outside of him, to depend on buckets for the majority of his career.

[HEZI]

That is the play call they are running the play. If the PG or SG or PF doesn't want to give the ball to Melo then move it and not dump it down. Melo is running the triangle what the coach calls. If you don't want him to run the triangle then have the coach call less triangle sets. I didn't see Melo wave anyone off last night. I saw he did missed 2 cutters. I saw nobody offer a screen for him on the pinch post. I saw Rose dump the ball to him and cut through to the opposite corner.

Maybe first preseason game he was just looking to get his shot and into a rhythm?
Maybe first preseason game coach wanted him to ISO to see if that is a viable option late in games?

There are a lot of ifs and whats but for a guy that lead the team last year in points rebounds and assists and had been evolving his game it will take more than 1 PRESEASON game for me to write him off.

I've watched Melo enough to know his habits and he has a bad habit of holding the ball too long and not making the right read. He doesn't do it all the time, but he does it enough times to kill the flow. He needs to make quicker decisions with the ball especially now because he has quick attacking guards that are looking to get to the rim, it's that simple.

That is what an ISO is hold the ball. That is what the offense calls for. That is why most hate the triangle because after all the cutting ect you end up with an ISO most of the time. I promise you during the year there will be ISO possession for Melo every game. Is he going to do it all the time? Probably not. I would suspect we will see it 2-4 times a half depending on the situation.

You want Melo with quicker decision put him off the pinch post and more on the perimeter running the pick and roll or setting the screens. But when the offense is called for a pinch post ISO Melo will ISO and Melo will hold the ball.

Even Golden State last night adjusted some what to give Durant a couple ISO attempts.

Iso doesn't mean Melo hold the ball, ignore the other players and shoot the ball yourself. That's where you seem to be confused. When get gets the ball in that area, it doesn't mean he needs to hold the ball and figure out how to get his own shot. It means he needs to make a quick read and decide quickly what he wants to do and play off of instinct. His instinct in those situations is usually to shoot the ball, but he needs to explore the other options that he has available to him.

[MrProb]

I love how ppl panicking over 1 preseason game, we are finally back to normal now.

Also there'll always be forced shots in every game. It's not hard to cherry picking it and make a problem out of every game.

[Sark]

If you ask me "iso" Melo is the best version of Melo. The only problem with iso Melo is when he becomes a black hole or forcing it. Iso does not equal black hole. It seems some fans think it does. Where Melo falters a lot is that 99 % of Melo's NBA career he has had to be the Anchor of the offense and usually has the most burden on the teams he is on.The reality is that when Melo feels more comfortable with the new players, you will see the "Olympic" Melo more. Melo likes to pass more than people give him credit for. Melo is NOT a catch and shoot player I don't care how much people think he is not the same player he used to be. People underestimate how EASY it is to play with the players that he plays with in the Olympics. People act like those are not All Star Teams in the Olympics.I never seen an All Star game where the players are really struggling to play with each other on offense.

Melo has always been a black hole with the ball. Once the ball gets to him, it sticks. He just got his career high of 4 assists per game last year. Even the All Time Chuckers (early MJ, Kobe, Iverson, etc) passed the ball more than that. When Jordan was taking 25 shots a game, he would still get you 5 or 6 assists. Melo can only do that when he really limits his shots for the game.

It is what it is with him.

you going to compare the teams that MJ Kobe played vs Melo teams. Im sorry, Kobe and MJ had MUCH better players to pass to than he had on Denver and on the Knicks up until KP came. Like i said, most of his so called Black hole is from not trusting his teammates to do the job. its why when Melo plays in the olympics you see a different version of him, he trusts who he is passing to. If MJ and Kobe had the teams he had, you would not even see the so called better assist numbers. You can easily get six assists a game when there is people you can depend on NIGHTLY. Why do you think a player like Draymond can rack up so many dimes...looks who he gives the rock to. There is a REASON why MJ PASSED up the last shot to give it to kerr to win a FINALS. He trusted his ability...you think if Kerr was a scrub he would have passed to him? Hell no Same goes with Kobe.He has ALWAYS have had veery good players to pass to in his best years. A.I. was a chuck master cause his teams were trash outside of him, to depend on buckets for the majority of his career.

It's probably not a fair comparison since all those guys are better than Melo, but they all played with trash teammates as well. When MJ was scoring 37 with absolute trash teammates, he was still passing more than Melo. When Kobe was getting 35 a game with Smush fcking Parker, he was passing more than Melo. When Iverson's second option was Eric Snow, he was still passing more than Melo.

[NYKat]

Don't want to overreact but it was not fun to wait all offseason for some Knicks basketball and watch them get blown out in the first half.

That was discouraging.

I didn't eve watch the third quarter when KP apparently when off

[NYKat]

"Carmelo not the guy anymore" After one preseason game...

The f*cking iso-sh*t is past irritating though. When is he ever going to learn?

[reub]

It was probably mentioned earlier but Plumlee played like a beast. Do we still need Amundson?

[Yankeeknickfan]

I would rather lose with KP making a leap than win(45 games really) with KP staying the same.

[Dantares]

Melo has always been a black hole with the ball. Once the ball gets to him, it sticks. He just got his career high of 4 assists per game last year. Even the All Time Chuckers (early MJ, Kobe, Iverson, etc) passed the ball more than that. When Jordan was taking 25 shots a game, he would still get you 5 or 6 assists. Melo can only do that when he really limits his shots for the game.

It is what it is with him.

you going to compare the teams that MJ Kobe played vs Melo teams. Im sorry, Kobe and MJ had MUCH better players to pass to than he had on Denver and on the Knicks up until KP came. Like i said, most of his so called Black hole is from not trusting his teammates to do the job. its why when Melo plays in the olympics you see a different version of him, he trusts who he is passing to. If MJ and Kobe had the teams he had, you would not even see the so called better assist numbers. You can easily get six assists a game when there is people you can depend on NIGHTLY. Why do you think a player like Draymond can rack up so many dimes...looks who he gives the rock to. There is a REASON why MJ PASSED up the last shot to give it to kerr to win a FINALS. He trusted his ability...you think if Kerr was a scrub he would have passed to him? Hell no Same goes with Kobe.He has ALWAYS have had veery good players to pass to in his best years. A.I. was a chuck master cause his teams were trash outside of him, to depend on buckets for the majority of his career.

It's probably not a fair comparison since all those guys are better than Melo, but they all played with trash teammates as well. When MJ was scoring 37 with absolute trash teammates, he was still passing more than Melo. When Kobe was getting 35 a game with Smush fcking Parker, he was passing more than Melo. When Iverson's second option was Eric Snow, he was still passing more than Melo.

come on now this is not a fair criticism of Melo. Those guys are all wing players/guards and dribble the ball way more and bring the ball up the court so they get those easy transition assists. of course they have more assists because they have the ball in their hands more. Melo is like a tweener 3/4. he is a post-up guy that attacks off the triple threat. He draws double teams and gets the pass to an open guy that leads to an assist, A hockey assist. You are being way to critical of Melo here Sark.

[dakomish23]

IIRC, they only ran one honest PnR and that was in the 2nd half. Willie set a pick for DRose, he used to and went right. Willie rolled right down the middle of the paint sucking in the defenders. DRose found Lee wide open in the corner for a 3. Splash.

They have a ton of personel who would be fantastic in the PnR. We have to make that our primary option.

They ran a couple of PnR's with Rose and Melo that worked out well in the first half. Rose attacked, but couldn't finish.

Oh ok great. Only 99% of the time did they run something else that should be their bread and butter.

[Sark]

you going to compare the teams that MJ Kobe played vs Melo teams. Im sorry, Kobe and MJ had MUCH better players to pass to than he had on Denver and on the Knicks up until KP came. Like i said, most of his so called Black hole is from not trusting his teammates to do the job. its why when Melo plays in the olympics you see a different version of him, he trusts who he is passing to. If MJ and Kobe had the teams he had, you would not even see the so called better assist numbers. You can easily get six assists a game when there is people you can depend on NIGHTLY. Why do you think a player like Draymond can rack up so many dimes...looks who he gives the rock to. There is a REASON why MJ PASSED up the last shot to give it to kerr to win a FINALS. He trusted his ability...you think if Kerr was a scrub he would have passed to him? Hell no Same goes with Kobe.He has ALWAYS have had veery good players to pass to in his best years. A.I. was a chuck master cause his teams were trash outside of him, to depend on buckets for the majority of his career.

It's probably not a fair comparison since all those guys are better than Melo, but they all played with trash teammates as well. When MJ was scoring 37 with absolute trash teammates, he was still passing more than Melo. When Kobe was getting 35 a game with Smush fcking Parker, he was passing more than Melo. When Iverson's second option was Eric Snow, he was still passing more than Melo.

come on now this is not a fair criticism of Melo. Those guys are all wing players/guards and dribble the ball way more and bring the ball up the court so they get those easy transition assists. of course they have more assists because they have the ball in their hands more. Melo is like a tweener 3/4. he is a post-up guy that attacks off the triple threat. He draws double teams and gets the pass to an open guy that leads to an assist, A hockey assist. You are being way to critical of Melo here Sark.

I was trying to use other known chuckers. I should've used Shaq or Duncan though, because his assists are closer to them than they are MJ/Kobe/AI.



Anyway Melo has a super team this year. No reason for him to not average 4.5 assists this year.

[CJackson]

you going to compare the teams that MJ Kobe played vs Melo teams. Im sorry, Kobe and MJ had MUCH better players to pass to than he had on Denver and on the Knicks up until KP came. Like i said, most of his so called Black hole is from not trusting his teammates to do the job. its why when Melo plays in the olympics you see a different version of him, he trusts who he is passing to. If MJ and Kobe had the teams he had, you would not even see the so called better assist numbers. You can easily get six assists a game when there is people you can depend on NIGHTLY. Why do you think a player like Draymond can rack up so many dimes...looks who he gives the rock to. There is a REASON why MJ PASSED up the last shot to give it to kerr to win a FINALS. He trusted his ability...you think if Kerr was a scrub he would have passed to him? Hell no Same goes with Kobe.He has ALWAYS have had veery good players to pass to in his best years. A.I. was a chuck master cause his teams were trash outside of him, to depend on buckets for the majority of his career.

It's probably not a fair comparison since all those guys are better than Melo, but they all played with trash teammates as well. When MJ was scoring 37 with absolute trash teammates, he was still passing more than Melo. When Kobe was getting 35 a game with Smush fcking Parker, he was passing more than Melo. When Iverson's second option was Eric Snow, he was still passing more than Melo.

come on now this is not a fair criticism of Melo. Those guys are all wing players/guards and dribble the ball way more and bring the ball up the court so they get those easy transition assists. of course they have more assists because they have the ball in their hands more. Melo is like a tweener 3/4. he is a post-up guy that attacks off the triple threat. He draws double teams and gets the pass to an open guy that leads to an assist, A hockey assist. You are being way to critical of Melo here Sark.

Except teams rarely game plan for Melo with a lot of double teams these days. That's simply not the case any more.

[thebuzzardman]

Melo has always been a black hole with the ball. Once the ball gets to him, it sticks. He just got his career high of 4 assists per game last year. Even the All Time Chuckers (early MJ, Kobe, Iverson, etc) passed the ball more than that. When Jordan was taking 25 shots a game, he would still get you 5 or 6 assists. Melo can only do that when he really limits his shots for the game.

It is what it is with him.

you going to compare the teams that MJ Kobe played vs Melo teams. Im sorry, Kobe and MJ had MUCH better players to pass to than he had on Denver and on the Knicks up until KP came. Like i said, most of his so called Black hole is from not trusting his teammates to do the job. its why when Melo plays in the olympics you see a different version of him, he trusts who he is passing to. If MJ and Kobe had the teams he had, you would not even see the so called better assist numbers. You can easily get six assists a game when there is people you can depend on NIGHTLY. Why do you think a player like Draymond can rack up so many dimes...looks who he gives the rock to. There is a REASON why MJ PASSED up the last shot to give it to kerr to win a FINALS. He trusted his ability...you think if Kerr was a scrub he would have passed to him? Hell no Same goes with Kobe.He has ALWAYS have had veery good players to pass to in his best years. A.I. was a chuck master cause his teams were trash outside of him, to depend on buckets for the majority of his career.

It's probably not a fair comparison since all those guys are better than Melo, but they all played with trash teammates as well. When MJ was scoring 37 with absolute trash teammates, he was still passing more than Melo. When Kobe was getting 35 a game with Smush fcking Parker, he was passing more than Melo. When Iverson's second option was Eric Snow, he was still passing more than Melo.

They're also all guards. I'd hope they'd f*cking pass more than Melo.

That said, Melo has had a tendency to have the ball stick. He's been much better about it. I don't count iso's where the play is clearly INTENDED to iso Melo, just like EVERY team does with it's top scorer who isn't a guard, pretty much. And then even great guards get iso's. That said, there are usually a couple of possessions per game where I wish Melo gave it up, instead of held it and shot it. Oh well.

*edited* - someone made this point and I didn't see it

Also added
Dirk is a useful player to compare Carmelo to. Dirk rebounds a little more (hopefully, he's 4 inches taller), Carmelo scores 3 ppg more, assists about the same, Melo .7 more per game for the career.
Mainly offensive oriented players who aren't terrible at D but not that great either. Not big assist numbers but not abysmal. Ok rebounders for their position.

[Rotten Apple]

He has to adjust, there is no way anybody can try to sugar coat it. The whole point of getting him help was to make the game easier for him and the rest of the team and not be forced to rely on him as much as in the past. In order for that to work effectively, he has to sacrifice and he has to adjust, simple and plain.

Nazr is right to an extent, he maybe could have worded it better.

1. Melo was playing within the offense. He was just missing shots so guys are going to jump on him it's a reality. I think he broke the offense maybe twice and forced up 2 shots Im not a fan of. He also needs to stop anticipating contact at the rim and just finish the basket. Too many times he's worried about the contest.

2. The offense should not run through KP but he should never be inside the paint IMO. He looks so uncomfortable the closer to the basket he gets especially when the lane is congested. When he was on the perimeter it really opened things up and got him some open shots and he made the defense pay. That's where he thrives. It also allows him to either get back and protect the rim on the break or have running lanes for his patented putback dunks.

3. Rose/Jennings should dictate where the ball goes, they're vets and are creative enough to make things happen. The Jennings dump off to KP and that Rose bullet pass to Lee in the corner are things we need to see more often.

Mixing all this together you have KP in the pick n pop, Melo will always command a defenses attention so he should focus on spacing the floor so when he gets it he's in position to catch and shoot or attack a close out and get an easy basket. He has an elite post game but it should be used when he has a mismatch or sporadically so he doesn't tire himself out. I also like Melo/KP screening for each other, it got KP 2 3s and Melo and easy mid range shot off the inbound. Those are easy baskets where neither had to take a single dribble.

One things for sure this team plays better when they spread it out and let the guards attack. Everyone benefits from that. I think by the time Oct 25th comes we are going to see a much more fluid offense with everyone buying in.

Melo should still be one of the best mid-range shooters in the league. That can be used to good effect when his teammates are moving the ball North to South from the interior to the perimeter. Melo then becomes an ideal quick pass from the outside in again.

Basically, if Melo goes and plants himself in his favorite spot on the floor which EVERYONE on the opposing team already knows and waits for an entry pass, that's not the style that will help the team.

Coach told him to get his wind up for a reason. When we get into the half-court offense Melo needs to move off the ball more than he is normally inclined to. This is not just about full court sprints, but active East-West motion, something Melo needs to be more savvy about.

In other words, the offense should not be designed around getting Melo his entry pass into the mid-range post any longer. He needs to get the ball in advantageous spots due to collective ball movement just like everyone else on the team.

You should still get some burn from good post-ups, but Melo really should limit himself to no more than half a dozen instances per game where he holds the ball for more than 3 seconds. Shoot or pass and only occasionally go into the jab step. Less is more. Mixing it up will make him less predictable and harder to defend anyway.

And he needs to wake up and realize bully ball is fuqqing dead man. There is no use getting upset about his lack of calls in the paint when at least half the time the situation is his own doing and he gets jammed up by younger, more athletic players protecting the rim.

Also, Melo should set more picks himself. He's still a big enough dude and he should be utilized accordingly, but somehow the deference to him over the years has resulted in his primary orientation being fed in the post. Time to evolve some more. Last year showed some good changes, but he needs to keep growing as a player.

In sum, if anyone should be the # 1 option it is KP, but if the team excels at moving on and off the ball, then it should be mostly about who has the best shot, not who is "The Man". Melo is NOT The Man anymore. He needs to play like his biggest desire is to get his teammates going, not himself.

Unless his conditioning is so inbred at this point that he can't figure out how to get himself going without volume shooting in which case he is going to be less effective because this team is not built for him to take 18-24 shots a game anymore. I hope he gets that

Yeah this is all a problem here.

1. I never said Melo should be the #1 option
2. You gave not a single reason why KP should be the #1 option

You have your agenda for whatever reason, I don't know why but it is what it is.

I'm about this team working well together, most of you are about KP getting EVERYTHING and everyone else getting NOTHING

[Rotten Apple]

It's probably not a fair comparison since all those guys are better than Melo, but they all played with trash teammates as well. When MJ was scoring 37 with absolute trash teammates, he was still passing more than Melo. When Kobe was getting 35 a game with Smush fcking Parker, he was passing more than Melo. When Iverson's second option was Eric Snow, he was still passing more than Melo.

come on now this is not a fair criticism of Melo. Those guys are all wing players/guards and dribble the ball way more and bring the ball up the court so they get those easy transition assists. of course they have more assists because they have the ball in their hands more. Melo is like a tweener 3/4. he is a post-up guy that attacks off the triple threat. He draws double teams and gets the pass to an open guy that leads to an assist, A hockey assist. You are being way to critical of Melo here Sark.

Except teams rarely game plan for Melo with a lot of double teams these days. That's simply not the case any more.

Melo was double teamed frequently last year, Houston threw a few at him last night. Come on man cut it out.

[Rotten Apple]

KP isos no one says a thing, Melo isos we riot.

[CJackson]

Nazr is right to an extent, he maybe could have worded it better.

1. Melo was playing within the offense. He was just missing shots so guys are going to jump on him it's a reality. I think he broke the offense maybe twice and forced up 2 shots Im not a fan of. He also needs to stop anticipating contact at the rim and just finish the basket. Too many times he's worried about the contest.

2. The offense should not run through KP but he should never be inside the paint IMO. He looks so uncomfortable the closer to the basket he gets especially when the lane is congested. When he was on the perimeter it really opened things up and got him some open shots and he made the defense pay. That's where he thrives. It also allows him to either get back and protect the rim on the break or have running lanes for his patented putback dunks.

3. Rose/Jennings should dictate where the ball goes, they're vets and are creative enough to make things happen. The Jennings dump off to KP and that Rose bullet pass to Lee in the corner are things we need to see more often.

Mixing all this together you have KP in the pick n pop, Melo will always command a defenses attention so he should focus on spacing the floor so when he gets it he's in position to catch and shoot or attack a close out and get an easy basket. He has an elite post game but it should be used when he has a mismatch or sporadically so he doesn't tire himself out. I also like Melo/KP screening for each other, it got KP 2 3s and Melo and easy mid range shot off the inbound. Those are easy baskets where neither had to take a single dribble.

One things for sure this team plays better when they spread it out and let the guards attack. Everyone benefits from that. I think by the time Oct 25th comes we are going to see a much more fluid offense with everyone buying in.

Melo should still be one of the best mid-range shooters in the league. That can be used to good effect when his teammates are moving the ball North to South from the interior to the perimeter. Melo then becomes an ideal quick pass from the outside in again.

Basically, if Melo goes and plants himself in his favorite spot on the floor which EVERYONE on the opposing team already knows and waits for an entry pass, that's not the style that will help the team.

Coach told him to get his wind up for a reason. When we get into the half-court offense Melo needs to move off the ball more than he is normally inclined to. This is not just about full court sprints, but active East-West motion, something Melo needs to be more savvy about.

In other words, the offense should not be designed around getting Melo his entry pass into the mid-range post any longer. He needs to get the ball in advantageous spots due to collective ball movement just like everyone else on the team.

You should still get some burn from good post-ups, but Melo really should limit himself to no more than half a dozen instances per game where he holds the ball for more than 3 seconds. Shoot or pass and only occasionally go into the jab step. Less is more. Mixing it up will make him less predictable and harder to defend anyway.

And he needs to wake up and realize bully ball is fuqqing dead man. There is no use getting upset about his lack of calls in the paint when at least half the time the situation is his own doing and he gets jammed up by younger, more athletic players protecting the rim.

Also, Melo should set more picks himself. He's still a big enough dude and he should be utilized accordingly, but somehow the deference to him over the years has resulted in his primary orientation being fed in the post. Time to evolve some more. Last year showed some good changes, but he needs to keep growing as a player.

In sum, if anyone should be the # 1 option it is KP, but if the team excels at moving on and off the ball, then it should be mostly about who has the best shot, not who is "The Man". Melo is NOT The Man anymore. He needs to play like his biggest desire is to get his teammates going, not himself.

Unless his conditioning is so inbred at this point that he can't figure out how to get himself going without volume shooting in which case he is going to be less effective because this team is not built for him to take 18-24 shots a game anymore. I hope he gets that

Yeah this is all a problem here.

1. I never said Melo should be the #1 option
2. You gave not a single reason why KP should be the #1 option

You have your agenda for whatever reason, I don't know why but it is what it is.

I'm about this team working well together, most of you are about KP getting EVERYTHING and everyone else getting NOTHING

Up yours you troll. Someone gives you their reasons and you yell "AGENDA". Seriously, you are a jerk

[thebuzzardman]

I'd like to add that this appears to be the beginning of KP vs Melo and whose team it is.

It wouldn't be RealGM Knicks without "______" VS "______"

[Sark]

KP isos no one says a thing, Melo isos we riot.

Compare their frequency. One does it a couple times. The other does it 10x that amount.

[thebuzzardman]

Waits patiently for bait to be taken