Official Trade Thread - Part XXXI

[dangermouse]

Imagine Rose being Wall's backup. And playing together.

Its 2017 and a reality tv star is president, anything can happen.

[gambitx777]

I'm totally cap-ignorant.

You're right that this is not good for NY. I was just loving myself for thinking Rose as the Wizards backup PG/SG might work.

Well.... dude, rose would kill the team, he does not want to be a back up hell he is looking for max money lol. Not a good trade at all. Wall and rose would hate each other more than Beal and wall do.!

[gambitx777]

What do you guys think? Gives you some additional defense/scoring punch. Wilson Chandler for Andrew Nicholson, Kelly Oubre, 2017 1st (Lottery protected)?

That's way too unbalanced. Chandler doesn't get you Oubre (a pretty good young player with tremendous upside) AND a 1st round pick in a strong draft.

I like Chandler, but the fit just isn't right and the cost is too high. Chandler, at age 29 on a $12M a year contract, isn't worth a 1st round pick, particularly not for a team that has Otto Porter to man his position.

His contract is what makes him valuable. Locked in for this year and next year at 12 million. Portland pays Turner and crabbe a combined 35 million per year and Chandler is more productive than either of them. The reason Washington has to throw in a 1st is because Nicholson at this point is just a waste of cap space. You are essentially giving someone 6 mil to sit on the bench and it's a 4 year deal at that. Denver has no reason to trade chandler for just a mid 1st and Nicholson, Oubre at least gives them a young player that may turn into something.

I would come back with a counter of
Mahinmi and burke and an unprotected first ( year negotiable ) for Wilson chandler, Jameer Nelson, Jusuf Nurkic.
I think that would be a fair deal, Mahinmi would be a great defencive anchor for that team when healthy. Burke is filler but an unprotected pick possibly this year is super valuable
We would again do a lot to fix our bench, You can play kelly and chander at the 2-3-4 off the bench. nurkic is a good young prospect to back up gortat, and nealson would be a great backup for wall.

[youngthegiant]

That's way too unbalanced. Chandler doesn't get you Oubre (a pretty good young player with tremendous upside) AND a 1st round pick in a strong draft.

I like Chandler, but the fit just isn't right and the cost is too high. Chandler, at age 29 on a $12M a year contract, isn't worth a 1st round pick, particularly not for a team that has Otto Porter to man his position.

His contract is what makes him valuable. Locked in for this year and next year at 12 million. Portland pays Turner and crabbe a combined 35 million per year and Chandler is more productive than either of them. The reason Washington has to throw in a 1st is because Nicholson at this point is just a waste of cap space. You are essentially giving someone 6 mil to sit on the bench and it's a 4 year deal at that. Denver has no reason to trade chandler for just a mid 1st and Nicholson, Oubre at least gives them a young player that may turn into something.

I would come back with a counter of
Mahinmi and burke and an unprotected first ( year negotiable ) for Wilson chandler, Jameer Nelson, Jusuf Nurkic.
I think that would be a fair deal, Mahinmi would be a great defencive anchor for that team when healthy. Burke is filler but an unprotected pick possibly this year is super valuable
We would again do a lot to fix our bench, You can play kelly and chander at the 2-3-4 off the bench. nurkic is a good young prospect to back up gortat, and nealson would be a great backup for wall.

Not really close at all, I wouldn't take that for Nurkic, let alone including Chandler. Mahinmi is a big negative asset right now, not sure how this seemed fair to you....

[gambitx777]

His contract is what makes him valuable. Locked in for this year and next year at 12 million. Portland pays Turner and crabbe a combined 35 million per year and Chandler is more productive than either of them. The reason Washington has to throw in a 1st is because Nicholson at this point is just a waste of cap space. You are essentially giving someone 6 mil to sit on the bench and it's a 4 year deal at that. Denver has no reason to trade chandler for just a mid 1st and Nicholson, Oubre at least gives them a young player that may turn into something.

I would come back with a counter of
Mahinmi and burke and an unprotected first ( year negotiable ) for Wilson chandler, Jameer Nelson, Jusuf Nurkic.
I think that would be a fair deal, Mahinmi would be a great defencive anchor for that team when healthy. Burke is filler but an unprotected pick possibly this year is super valuable
We would again do a lot to fix our bench, You can play kelly and chander at the 2-3-4 off the bench. nurkic is a good young prospect to back up gortat, and nealson would be a great backup for wall.

Not really close at all, I wouldn't take that for Nurkic, let alone including Chandler. Mahinmi is a big negative asset right now, not sure how this seemed fair to you....

Here is the issue, you are not valuing you're players based on who you are dealing with. You just have an arbitrary value for them. Wilson Chandler is not worth a first rounder, he is a 29 year old wing small ball 4 who is pretty injury prone, He is a low level starter or a good bench player, his contract is 12 mill, and he's going to be a bench player, it's not a steal but for what he is it is not an overpay either, it's just pretty fair per market value. We are trading one of the best rim protecting and defencive centers in the league, WHile hurt at the moment, for a young raw center with offencive skill but not much on D. The point guard swap is marginally unimportant. But denver is getting an unprotected pick. For an injury prone 29 year old, a raw center, and an over the hill point guard, while getting a defensive anchor and a young guard in return. Its a fair deal that works for both teams. Because an unprotected pick in this years or next years draft (both are looking stacked) from a team that is one John wall or beal injury away from being in the lottery is more valuable than what you are giving up.

[Dat2U]

I think trying to sell off Mahinmi's contract with our unprotected pick to receive a mediocre asset in return only compounds the problem we have. We have very few tradeable assets and unless were getting bang for our buck were taking a huge risk of it backfiring in our face.

Even acquiring the likes of Nurkic (who may be talented but isn't very good - yet) and Chandler (the definition of an average NBA player) doesn't save us from the lottery if we lose Wall, Beal or Porter for any amount of time.

I think were better off being patient and rehabbing Mahinmi's value by waiting for him to get healthy and hoping he'll be an impact defender once again when he does return. Maybe at that point, it won't require an unprotected 1st to unload him next off-season if we see fit to move him.

The bigger concern for me is Nicholson as he's completely healthy and unplayable. I don't know how we rehab his value and flip it into something better. I wish the amnesty provision was still around. He's literally dead cap space that's taking up a roster spot. I can't imagine a bigger waste of $26 million than him. I wonder if we could package him with Markieff for a playable option with a bad contract.

[queridiculo]

Mahinmi is getting paid a lot of money to be second banana, but looking around the league it's not like he's overpaid really, especially when you factor that if healthy, having him platoon the center position is going likely going to extend Gortat's effectiveness in the later stages of his deal by quite a margin.

Nicholson is just a body, but maybe the Wizards will be able to play him alongside Mahinmi, he's got experience playing next to plodding bigs

[payitforward]

...O'Quinn's been playing well at C...

Kyle O'Quinn -- another guy who has had me gnashing my teeth for years!

In addition to the #32 pick in 2012, we also had the #46 pick. But the resident genius threw it in as part of the #@$%* Okariza trade -- which along with the disastrous 2011 draft was the defining moment in utterly blowing the Wall-based rebuild.

O'Quinn was a small college phenom, coming out of Norfolk State. I thought he was very likely to develop into a solid NBA Center, & I was hoping he was on our radar, as I was pretty sure he'd be there @ #46. Then, a week before the draft, EG made the crappy trade.

O'Quinn went to the Magic @ #49. The Knicks have him sewn up for three years for a total of $12m. He's twice the player that Smith is. Or Nicholson. Grrrrr.

(For the record, the guys I wanted in the '11 & '12 draft were: Kawhi Leonard, Kenneth Faried, Chandler Parsons, Bradley Beal, Jae Crowder & Kyle O'Quinn. That's almost half an excellent NBA roster.)

[Meliorus]

Our power forward situation is a mess. Nicholson doesn't play. Morris sucks. What's the plan for acquiring an actual starting power forward? The only thing Morris is above-average at (post-ups) is the least efficient offense in basketball. Are we going to pass on Adebayo and try to get one of the stretch fours in the draft? We don't have enough money to get Patterson in the off-season.

[pcbothwel]

Our power forward situation is a mess. Nicholson doesn't play. Morris sucks. What's the plan for acquiring an actual starting power forward? The only thing Morris is above-average at (post-ups) is the least efficient offense in basketball. Are we going to pass on Adebayo and try to get one of the stretch fours in the draft? We don't have enough money to get Patterson in the off-season.

We have a couple of options moving forward with all involving Gortat, 2017 1st, and the MLE:
1) Trade the 1st and Nicholson for Noel and let Mahinmi comeback later in the year. While it doesnt solve the 4 problem per se, it allows us to secure the 5 spot. This allows us to use MLE on someone like Muscala and trade Gortat for 2018 1st
Wall / Sato
Beal / Mclellan
Otto / Oubre
Muscala / Morris / Smith
Noel / Mahinmi / Smith

Losing Gortat and Nicholson save us 19M, which will be redirected to resigning Noel I assume. The only issue here is the amount of money locked up in the 5 spot with two players that cant make a shot outside 12 ft.

Another version of this trade would be for someone like Aaron Gordon...

2) Play out this year and use 2017 1st and MLE on a PF and C. Again, this allows us to trade Gortat for future asset and dump his salary.

[nuposse04]

I think trying to sell off Mahinmi's contract with our unprotected pick to receive a mediocre asset in return only compounds the problem we have. We have very few tradeable assets and unless were getting bang for our buck were taking a huge risk of it backfiring in our face.

Even acquiring the likes of Nurkic (who may be talented but isn't very good - yet) and Chandler (the definition of an average NBA player) doesn't save us from the lottery if we lose Wall, Beal or Porter for any amount of time.

I think were better off being patient and rehabbing Mahinmi's value by waiting for him to get healthy and hoping he'll be an impact defender once again when he does return. Maybe at that point, it won't require an unprotected 1st to unload him next off-season if we see fit to move him.

The bigger concern for me is Nicholson as he's completely healthy and unplayable. I don't know how we rehab his value and flip it into something better. I wish the amnesty provision was still around. He's literally dead cap space that's taking up a roster spot. I can't imagine a bigger waste of $26 million than him. I wonder if we could package him with Markieff for a playable option with a bad contract.

I generally agree with this. There were two 4s I wanted us to go after Horford. T. Jones and Nicholson... boy was I wrong on Nicholson his numbers are turrible this year. T. Jones on the other hand is having an ok season and much cheaper.

My hope is if Ian comes back to form like last season we may be able to mask some of Nicholson's defensive problems.

If we want to get better sooner then later we should just cut Burke and sign either Jack or Chalmers... both who I am confident are better then Trey even post injury.

[nate33]

We have a couple of options moving forward with all involving Gortat, 2017 1st, and the MLE:
1) Trade the 1st and Nicholson for Noel and let Mahinmi comeback later in the year. While it doesnt solve the 4 problem per se, it allows us to secure the 5 spot. This allows us to use MLE on someone like Muscala and trade Gortat for 2018 1st
Wall / Sato
Beal / Mclellan
Otto / Oubre
Muscala / Morris / Smith
Noel / Mahinmi / Smith

Losing Gortat and Nicholson save us 19M, which will be redirected to resigning Noel I assume. The only issue here is the amount of money locked up in the 5 spot with two players that cant make a shot outside 12 ft.

Another version of this trade would be for someone like Aaron Gordon...

2) Play out this year and use 2017 1st and MLE on a PF and C. Again, this allows us to trade Gortat for future asset and dump his salary.

We can't do the first because of the luxtax. On the second deal, an MLE center is likely to be a dramatic downgrade from Gortat.

[gambitx777]

I think trying to sell off Mahinmi's contract with our unprotected pick to receive a mediocre asset in return only compounds the problem we have. We have very few tradeable assets and unless were getting bang for our buck were taking a huge risk of it backfiring in our face.

Even acquiring the likes of Nurkic (who may be talented but isn't very good - yet) and Chandler (the definition of an average NBA player) doesn't save us from the lottery if we lose Wall, Beal or Porter for any amount of time.

I think were better off being patient and rehabbing Mahinmi's value by waiting for him to get healthy and hoping he'll be an impact defender once again when he does return. Maybe at that point, it won't require an unprotected 1st to unload him next off-season if we see fit to move him.

The bigger concern for me is Nicholson as he's completely healthy and unplayable. I don't know how we rehab his value and flip it into something better. I wish the amnesty provision was still around. He's literally dead cap space that's taking up a roster spot. I can't imagine a bigger waste of $26 million than him. I wonder if we could package him with Markieff for a playable option with a bad contract.

Look, I get what you are trying to say, But we need a bench and we need to attempt to move these bad deals. Nothing short of A.I. hoping in the fountain of youth and playing for us is going to save us from a wall injury. NOTHING. No matter what we do if wall goes down its all over. A wilson chandler could save us if beal or Porter needs to miss a couple weeks though. I think we could package a couple of seconds to a team to move nicholson. I mean we would not get a valuable player back but maybe we can make us of someone else bad contract or problem child. Id do a rondo, trade for nicholson and smith with 2 seconds or nicholson and burke and the seconds. That would be a brilliant trade. I know rondon is a poison but you might be able to flip him before the deadline or **** talk him into helping out for a season or two, you never know maybe wall or beal can make a connection with him, maybe he takes a liking to brooks. its worth a shot if it gets us out of nicholson.

[pcbothwel]

We have a couple of options moving forward with all involving Gortat, 2017 1st, and the MLE:
1) Trade the 1st and Nicholson for Noel and let Mahinmi comeback later in the year. While it doesnt solve the 4 problem per se, it allows us to secure the 5 spot. This allows us to use MLE on someone like Muscala and trade Gortat for 2018 1st
Wall / Sato
Beal / Mclellan
Otto / Oubre
Muscala / Morris / Smith
Noel / Mahinmi / Smith

Losing Gortat and Nicholson save us 19M, which will be redirected to resigning Noel I assume. The only issue here is the amount of money locked up in the 5 spot with two players that cant make a shot outside 12 ft.

Another version of this trade would be for someone like Aaron Gordon...

2) Play out this year and use 2017 1st and MLE on a PF and C. Again, this allows us to trade Gortat for future asset and dump his salary.

We can't do the first because of the luxtax. On the second deal, an MLE center is likely to be a dramatic downgrade from Gortat.

Nate,
I knew we'd be teetering on the edge. Here is my math:
- Gortat and Nicholson gone
- Beal, Wall, Mahinmi, Morris, Smith, Sato, Oubre, McLellan, and Min are on the books = Total Salaries are 78.63M
- Noel/Otto resigned to a starting salary of 40M Combined (21-22M for Otto and 18-19M for Noel) = Total is 118.63M
- With the Lux Tax somewhere between 122M and 127M, that gives us between 3.3M and 8.3M for the MLE without going over.

Obviously, every bit we could save on Otto/Noel would be nice. So if they signed for 20M and 17M, then we're more or less in the clear.

2) For the 2nd trade, I agree that the MLE would probably be a down grade at first blush. But I am assuming that Mahinmi is the starter for 25 minutes and Smith picks up another 5-10. So the backup to Mahinmi is really only playing 12-15 minutes. I dont think Dedmon or Withey are much worse than Gortat, especially in that little time. Also, the minor downgrade is really only for one year as I assume both those players are better than Gortat in 18/19.

[nate33]

We have a couple of options moving forward with all involving Gortat, 2017 1st, and the MLE:
1) Trade the 1st and Nicholson for Noel and let Mahinmi comeback later in the year. While it doesnt solve the 4 problem per se, it allows us to secure the 5 spot. This allows us to use MLE on someone like Muscala and trade Gortat for 2018 1st
Wall / Sato
Beal / Mclellan
Otto / Oubre
Muscala / Morris / Smith
Noel / Mahinmi / Smith

Losing Gortat and Nicholson save us 19M, which will be redirected to resigning Noel I assume. The only issue here is the amount of money locked up in the 5 spot with two players that cant make a shot outside 12 ft.

Another version of this trade would be for someone like Aaron Gordon...

2) Play out this year and use 2017 1st and MLE on a PF and C. Again, this allows us to trade Gortat for future asset and dump his salary.

We can't do the first because of the luxtax. On the second deal, an MLE center is likely to be a dramatic downgrade from Gortat.

Nate,
I knew we'd be teetering on the edge. Here is my math:
- Gortat and Nicholson gone
- Beal, Wall, Mahinmi, Morris, Smith, Sato, Oubre, McLellan, and Min are on the books = Total Salaries are 78.63M
- Noel/Otto resigned to a starting salary of 40M Combined (21-22M for Otto and 18-19M for Noel) = Total is 118.63M
- With the Lux Tax somewhere between 122M and 127M, that gives us between 3.3M and 8.3M for the MLE without going over.

Obviously, every bit we could save on Otto/Noel would be nice. So if they signed for 20M and 17M, then we're more or less in the clear.

2) For the 2nd trade, I agree that the MLE would probably be a down grade at first blush. But I am assuming that Mahinmi is the starter for 25 minutes and Smith picks up another 5-10. So the backup to Mahinmi is really only playing 12-15 minutes. I dont think Dedmon or Withey are much worse than Gortat, especially in that little time. Also, the minor downgrade is really only for one year as I assume both those players are better than Gortat in 18/19.

I missed the part in version 1 where you trade away Gortat for a pick.

In general, you seem to be banking on a Gortat for Muscala (or similar type of player) swap whereby we save money, get younger, and do not experience much dropoff in production. I seriously doubt that is likely. I think even the Mike Muscalas of the league are going to get more than the MLE in free agency. And I also doubt if we get much incentive back if we dump Gortat for cap room. Nobody needs a 32-year-old center who doesn't protect the rim all that well.

Ultimately, I'm skeptical that all of this shuffling around of our big men is feasible. I think the easier solution is to simply wait for Mahinmi to get healthy to solidify that backup C spot, and then draft a PF who we can develop to replace Morris. Either that or trade the pick for an already-developed PF still on his rookie deal (Aaron Gordon?).

[Dat2U]

I think trying to sell off Mahinmi's contract with our unprotected pick to receive a mediocre asset in return only compounds the problem we have. We have very few tradeable assets and unless were getting bang for our buck were taking a huge risk of it backfiring in our face.

Even acquiring the likes of Nurkic (who may be talented but isn't very good - yet) and Chandler (the definition of an average NBA player) doesn't save us from the lottery if we lose Wall, Beal or Porter for any amount of time.

I think were better off being patient and rehabbing Mahinmi's value by waiting for him to get healthy and hoping he'll be an impact defender once again when he does return. Maybe at that point, it won't require an unprotected 1st to unload him next off-season if we see fit to move him.

The bigger concern for me is Nicholson as he's completely healthy and unplayable. I don't know how we rehab his value and flip it into something better. I wish the amnesty provision was still around. He's literally dead cap space that's taking up a roster spot. I can't imagine a bigger waste of $26 million than him. I wonder if we could package him with Markieff for a playable option with a bad contract.

Look, I get what you are trying to say, But we need a bench and we need to attempt to move these bad deals. Nothing short of A.I. hoping in the fountain of youth and playing for us is going to save us from a wall injury. NOTHING. No matter what we do if wall goes down its all over. A wilson chandler could save us if beal or Porter needs to miss a couple weeks though. I think we could package a couple of seconds to a team to move nicholson. I mean we would not get a valuable player back but maybe we can make us of someone else bad contract or problem child. Id do a rondo, trade for nicholson and smith with 2 seconds or nicholson and burke and the seconds. That would be a brilliant trade. I know rondon is a poison but you might be able to flip him before the deadline or **** talk him into helping out for a season or two, you never know maybe wall or beal can make a connection with him, maybe he takes a liking to brooks. its worth a shot if it gets us out of nicholson.

Both Nicholson & Mahinmi are under contract for 3 more years after this season. It would take more than (2) 2nd rounders to move either for an expiring in which case it's not worth it.

The best we can hope for is Mahinmi is able to return after the all-star back. That will help the bench. The other big concern is backup PG but I don't think we should or have to cough up an unprotected pick to upgrade there. I'm ok with either signing Chalmers, Jack or an NBDL'er on the cheap. They can't possibly be worse than Burke.

I'd be against giving up a 1st round pick unless it gives us a quality starting PF. It's too good a draft year and we need a cheap contract too badly to sell off our pick to dump a bad contract and receive mediocrity in return.

[pcbothwel]

We can't do the first because of the luxtax. On the second deal, an MLE center is likely to be a dramatic downgrade from Gortat.

Nate,
I knew we'd be teetering on the edge. Here is my math:
- Gortat and Nicholson gone
- Beal, Wall, Mahinmi, Morris, Smith, Sato, Oubre, McLellan, and Min are on the books = Total Salaries are 78.63M
- Noel/Otto resigned to a starting salary of 40M Combined (21-22M for Otto and 18-19M for Noel) = Total is 118.63M
- With the Lux Tax somewhere between 122M and 127M, that gives us between 3.3M and 8.3M for the MLE without going over.

Obviously, every bit we could save on Otto/Noel would be nice. So if they signed for 20M and 17M, then we're more or less in the clear.

2) For the 2nd trade, I agree that the MLE would probably be a down grade at first blush. But I am assuming that Mahinmi is the starter for 25 minutes and Smith picks up another 5-10. So the backup to Mahinmi is really only playing 12-15 minutes. I dont think Dedmon or Withey are much worse than Gortat, especially in that little time. Also, the minor downgrade is really only for one year as I assume both those players are better than Gortat in 18/19.

I missed the part in version 1 where you trade away Gortat for a pick.

In general, you seem to be banking on a Gortat for Muscala (or similar type of player) swap whereby we save money, get younger, and do not experience much dropoff in production. I seriously doubt that is likely. I think even the Mike Muscalas of the league are going to get more than the MLE in free agency. And I also doubt if we get much incentive back if we dump Gortat for cap room. Nobody needs a 32-year-old center who doesn't protect the rim all that well.

Ultimately, I'm skeptical that all of this shuffling around of our big men is feasible. I think the easier solution is to simply wait for Mahinmi to get healthy to solidify that backup C spot, and then draft a PF who we can develop to replace Morris. Either that or trade the pick for an already-developed PF still on his rookie deal (Aaron Gordon?).

Agreed, just outlining different scenarios. But I agree that we (And other teams) usually dont play musical chairs with parts and more often than not just perform straight forward trades/acquisitions. This is why I dont like trades on this forum with too many moving parts or step after step... They sometimes have a good vision/outcome, but just never happen in real life.

So we are truly left with hoping the 2017 pick being the savior, whether that be by draft or trade.

[payitforward]

... A wilson chandler could save us if beal or Porter needs to miss a couple weeks though. ...

Save us from what? We're not a good enough team to trade away our future. Period. No trade that's been suggested, which costs us a R1 pick, has even been close to worth doing.

No amount of "shuffling," as nate termed it, is going to make any difference. We aren't getting better until we start building well from the draft. That starts with a new GM and a quality pick in the lottery this June.

The only way to compensate for our boat anchor over-pay contracts is by way of rookie contracts for players who are very productive -- and by signing FAs who are underpaid for some reason (see under Dedmon, Dewayne for example).

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

...O'Quinn's been playing well at C...

Kyle O'Quinn -- another guy who has had me gnashing my teeth for years!

In addition to the #32 pick in 2012, we also had the #46 pick. But the resident genius threw it in as part of the #@$%* Okariza trade -- which along with the disastrous 2011 draft was the defining moment in utterly blowing the Wall-based rebuild.

O'Quinn was a small college phenom, coming out of Norfolk State. I thought he was very likely to develop into a solid NBA Center, & I was hoping he was on our radar, as I was pretty sure he'd be there @ #46. Then, a week before the draft, EG made the crappy trade.

O'Quinn went to the Magic @ #49. The Knicks have him sewn up for three years for a total of $12m. He's twice the player that Smith is. Or Nicholson. Grrrrr.

(For the record, the guys I wanted in the '11 & '12 draft were: Kawhi Leonard, Kenneth Faried, Chandler Parsons, Bradley Beal, Jae Crowder & Kyle O'Quinn. That's almost half an excellent NBA roster.)

You know I also wanted Faried and Leonard.

In '12, I wanted to trade down and pick Lillard. Looks like Beal has really blossomed THIS season; but, Lillard/Wall would have been lethal.

(I also wanted McCollum his draft year).

[deneem4]

What do you guys about a guy like hawes???
As good as a rim protector as gortathe maybe better..great shooter and an underrated passer...not as good as a rebounder but we have porter
He could be had for a 2nd....or maybe a future 1st pick swap