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Bradley Beal - Part III

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Re: RE: Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#441 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sat Dec 31, 2016 11:01 am

nate33 wrote:This is an interesting debate.

Wall is a heck of a competitor and he gives it his all on the court, so I'm loathe to criticize him. But it is true that he does seem to enjoy the nightlife a bit much during the season, and he has been out of shape in some offseasons. In general, I get the feeling that he loves basketball and loves to compete, but he doesn't necessarily have the type of mental discipline to work on the boring minutia in the offseason that might make him a better player. My guess is that his favorite basketball training drill is to play basketball.

Beal seems to be more disciplined and detail-oriented in his game. He lacks Wall athletic fluidity, but you can tell that he works very hard on boring things like footwork and body positioning in order to help improve his game. That said, I sometimes worry about Beal's mental toughness. He isn't an ice-cold assassin during crunch time, but instead seems to be more likely to miss free throws and clutch shots down the stretch. (In his defense, that's changing a bit this year as he grows more confident in general.)

Basically, I think the perfect basketball attitude would combine Beal's off the court discipline and work ethic with Wall's on the court spirit and competitiveness.

Overall, I think both players have pretty good attitudes. You don't really worry about giving either guy a long term contract because both guys are going to keep working hard (if not always working smart) and try and improve. Most of my complaints are just minor nitpicks. Things could certainly be much, much worse.

Wall and Beal are going to be boosted by Porter.

If the Wizards simply hold on to their draft pick they are one Harry Giles or Justin Patton (or, Ruzious, the big kid at Baylor); and, in round two, Jason Hart, away from being an upper tier team.
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Re: RE: Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#442 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sat Dec 31, 2016 11:04 am

payitforward wrote:You know... I'm pretty sure none of us has sufficient information to make any real judgments about these issues of character, mental discipline, any of that stuff. And I don't really see, myself, much of what several of you are describing in these young men.

I guess it makes me wonder whether -- if a person thinks something is "a good thing" and a player appears to have that -- then the person might find it natural to attribute what's good about the player to that "thing", whatever it is. Which, obviously, doesn't mean it has anything to do with what's good about the player.

Discernment or projection of one's own predispositions?

Pif, it's all subjective. We do tend to see what we want to as mood strikes.
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Re: RE: Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#443 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sat Dec 31, 2016 11:05 am

WizarDynasty wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:
Character? Not at all. But Wall has generational gifts in regards to size, athleticism, and vision... Neither Beal or Porter do. We have heard a lot about the short comings with Beal and Porter, but they are centralized around physical limitations (Porter is to weak and not explosive while Beal is too small and not athletic enough to overcome that). We have never criticized Wall for anything on the physical front. He has the full tool box, so I would expect him to be the best player.

But I challenge your assertion that taking a shot at Wall's work ethic and focus is "way off base". Wall has consistently come into the season overweight and his focus has proven to be inconsistent (Especially when he's partying the night before as he is keen on doing).
To me, Beal has shown a longer term and more consistent focus in regards to his diet/exercise and the nuances of the game like changing speeds, footwork, spacing.
Again, I love wall and the dedication has shown to such an inept franchise, but there is a reason less physically talented PG's that dont have the natural vision/passing skill set Wall does out work him. Why are Lillard, Lowry, Kemba, and Geroge Hill even in the same conversation as Wall?

You are seriously underrating Beal's physical ability. He is not small, and he's got a very strong build. He also jumps much better than John. John's primary physical gift is primarily his speed - there are plenty of big PGs nowadaze, but he plays below the rim. And I would not call John's vision exceptional for a PG - it's good - he doesn't have any particular physical gift in that regard. What he is is a great competitor with great speed who plays with a lot of aggression and confidence.

By your last sentence in your "I love Wall" paragraph - it's clear that you are - in fact - knocking Wall. And I whole-heartedly disagree with you. None of us know that any of those players out-work John. To state it as a fact seems like... fill in the blank. If all your evidence is a few offseason pictures, that's pretty lame.


Wall has the most important physical gift in basketball, explosive first step. Rare and elite.

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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#444 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sat Dec 31, 2016 11:08 am

I'm happy with how Beal is playing.

I hope he can play over 68 games and be healthy thru playoffs. Missing less than 15 games would be progress.

72 games played would be 100% improvement (it's late, but 10 is half of 20-- I think my math is correct) and a miracle based on the missed games past and present season included.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#445 » by tontoz » Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:00 am

At the halfway point i think we can safely say Beal is having a legit breakout year.

Pts per 36 minutes 23.7 (previous best 20.2)
TS 59.3% (pb 54.7)
ORTG 117 (pb 103)

He is taking more 3s and taking it to the rim more without an increase in turnovers. In fact his turnover rate is at a career low.

The only real hole in his game now is defensive rebounding, which is pretty bad. But otherwise his season is fairly comparable to a prime Mitch Richmond, a hopeful comparison some made when we picked him. He might not make the AS game but he certainly has a legit case. He is currently 4th in RPM among 2s, well ahead of Derozen.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM/position/2
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#446 » by AFM » Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:04 am

Really good stuff, Tontoz. You're a statistical savant. We've been searching for someone to take over the hole left by TheSecretTurncoat, and you may just be that guy. Keep it up. And if you can't there's always Cialis.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#447 » by stevemcqueen1 » Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:10 am

Beal is actually a good rebounder for a 6'5 guard, but our system means he won't get many because his job is to guard the perimeter and then get up court after the shot goes up. Our transition offense is awesome and we're way better by using him this way than having him crash the boards. Otto and Gortat are the ones that crash the boards and they're good enough at it that we can send the guards out to run.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#448 » by pcbothwel » Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:56 am

stevemcqueen1 wrote:Beal is actually a good rebounder for a 6'5 guard, but our system means he won't get many because his job is to guard the perimeter and then get up court after the shot goes up. Our transition offense is awesome and we're way better by using him this way than having him crash the boards. Otto and Gortat are the ones that crash the boards and they're good enough at it that we can send the guards out to run.


Exactly, we dont want/need Beal rebounding, we need him getting ahead of the defense and getting open 3's. Gortat and Otto are great rebounders, so let Kieff box out and those two crash the glass.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#449 » by Dat2U » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:00 am

tontoz wrote:At the halfway point i think we can safely say Beal is having a legit breakout year.

Pts per 36 minutes 23.7 (previous best 20.2)
TS 59.3% (pb 54.7)
ORTG 117 (pb 103)

He is taking more 3s and taking it to the rim more without an increase in turnovers. In fact his turnover rate is at a career low.

The only real hole in his game now is defensive rebounding, which is pretty bad. But otherwise his season is fairly comparable to a prime Mitch Richmond, a hopeful comparison some made when we picked him. He might not make the AS game but he certainly has a legit case. He is currently 4th in RPM among 2s, well ahead of Derozen.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM/position/2


Yep, he's been as good as I could have hoped. I've been really impressed with his consistency. He still has definite room for improvement, especially on the defensive end but I'm even seeing progress there. He's not the sieve McCollum or DeRozan are. Suffice it to say, the only other SG I would trade him for is Harden. Klay has the bigger name & on a bigger stage but I think Beal has surpassed him this season.

Since his very slow start to the season he's probably been the 2nd best SG in the league.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#450 » by Kanyewest » Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:51 pm

Dat2U wrote:
tontoz wrote:At the halfway point i think we can safely say Beal is having a legit breakout year.

Pts per 36 minutes 23.7 (previous best 20.2)
TS 59.3% (pb 54.7)
ORTG 117 (pb 103)

He is taking more 3s and taking it to the rim more without an increase in turnovers. In fact his turnover rate is at a career low.

The only real hole in his game now is defensive rebounding, which is pretty bad. But otherwise his season is fairly comparable to a prime Mitch Richmond, a hopeful comparison some made when we picked him. He might not make the AS game but he certainly has a legit case. He is currently 4th in RPM among 2s, well ahead of Derozen.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM/position/2


Yep, he's been as good as I could have hoped. I've been really impressed with his consistency. He still has definite room for improvement, especially on the defensive end but I'm even seeing progress there. He's not the sieve McCollum or DeRozan are. Suffice it to say, the only other SG I would trade him for is Harden. Klay has the bigger name & on a bigger stage but I think Beal has surpassed him this season.

Since his very slow start to the season he's probably been the 2nd best SG in the league.


Harden is a point guard now.

BTW, I would still have Thompson ahead at this moment because Thompson is a better defender but I also liked the way Beal has improved this season.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#451 » by tontoz » Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:02 pm

Kanyewest wrote:Harden is a point guard now.

BTW, I would still have Thompson ahead at this moment because Thompson is a better defender but I also liked the way Beal has improved this season.


I have seen mixed reviews of Thompson's defense. His DRPM is worse than Beals right now.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#452 » by tontoz » Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:46 pm

stevemcqueen1 wrote:Beal is actually a good rebounder for a 6'5 guard, but our system means he won't get many because his job is to guard the perimeter and then get up court after the shot goes up. Our transition offense is awesome and we're way better by using him this way than having him crash the boards. Otto and Gortat are the ones that crash the boards and they're good enough at it that we can send the guards out to run.



No he is a poor rebounder for any guard. He ranks 64th in rebounding rate among 2s. There are 58 pgs with a better rebounding rate than Beal.

http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/sg/sort/reboundRate/page/2

Marcus Thornton is 17th playing in the same offense. Chris Paul is only 6' and his rebounding rate is double Beal's.

Beal's man is frequently able to rebound his own miss because Beal is trying to leak out and cherry pick. As a team we rank 17th in defensive rebounding, hardly good enough to give Beal a pass on the defensive glass.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#453 » by AFM » Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:05 pm

tontoz wrote:
stevemcqueen1 wrote:Beal is actually a good rebounder for a 6'5 guard, but our system means he won't get many because his job is to guard the perimeter and then get up court after the shot goes up. Our transition offense is awesome and we're way better by using him this way than having him crash the boards. Otto and Gortat are the ones that crash the boards and they're good enough at it that we can send the guards out to run.



No he is a poor rebounder for any guard. He ranks 64th in rebounding rate among 2s. There are 58 pgs with a better rebounding rate than Beal.

http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/sg/sort/reboundRate/page/2

Marcus Thornton is 17th playing in the same offense. Chris Paul is only 6' and his rebounding rate is double Beal's.

Beal's man is frequently able to rebound his own miss because Beal is trying to leak out and cherry pick. As a team we rank 17th in defensive rebounding, hardly good enough to give Beal a pass on the defensive glass.


It's weird, he was one of the best rebounding SGs in college.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#454 » by tontoz » Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:00 am

tontoz wrote:At the halfway point i think we can safely say Beal is having a legit breakout year.

Pts per 36 minutes 23.7 (previous best 20.2)
TS 59.3% (pb 54.7)
ORTG 117 (pb 103)

He is taking more 3s and taking it to the rim more without an increase in turnovers. In fact his turnover rate is at a career low.

The only real hole in his game now is defensive rebounding, which is pretty bad. But otherwise his season is fairly comparable to a prime Mitch Richmond, a hopeful comparison some made when we picked him. He might not make the AS game but he certainly has a legit case. He is currently 4th in RPM among 2s, well ahead of Derozen.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM/position/2



Beal is 1-21 from 3 since i made this post. :(
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#455 » by stevemcqueen1 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:16 am

He'll bounce back. Everyone goes through slumps. He's gotten way more consistent, but he's still not at the point where he's a rock night in, night out. Wall just got to that point this season. He's still having a break out season.

But this stretch does show that he needs to find ways to make positive contributions when he can't get his shot to fall. Got to get to the FT line, do some assisting, and play ferocious defense.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#456 » by nate33 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:09 pm

tontoz wrote:
tontoz wrote:At the halfway point i think we can safely say Beal is having a legit breakout year.

Pts per 36 minutes 23.7 (previous best 20.2)
TS 59.3% (pb 54.7)
ORTG 117 (pb 103)

He is taking more 3s and taking it to the rim more without an increase in turnovers. In fact his turnover rate is at a career low.

The only real hole in his game now is defensive rebounding, which is pretty bad. But otherwise his season is fairly comparable to a prime Mitch Richmond, a hopeful comparison some made when we picked him. He might not make the AS game but he certainly has a legit case. He is currently 4th in RPM among 2s, well ahead of Derozen.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM/position/2



Beal is 1-21 from 3 since i made this post. :(

Ouch!
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#457 » by payitforward » Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:24 pm

Beal's had 3 bad games in a row. It makes sense for long-time fans to be sensitive to his performance, as he so badly underperformed for so long. But, it might be a little quick to worry. Or... I hope it is! :) (i.e. I'm worried...)
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#458 » by J-Ves » Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:17 pm

payitforward wrote:Beal's had 3 bad games in a row. It makes sense for long-time fans to be sensitive to his performance, as he so badly underperformed for so long. But, it might be a little quick to worry. Or... I hope it is! :) (i.e. I'm worried...)

The good news is he is still taking quality shots. Can't overcome 1-21 shooting from 3, but he will turn it around
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#459 » by nate33 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:11 pm

J-Ves wrote:
payitforward wrote:Beal's had 3 bad games in a row. It makes sense for long-time fans to be sensitive to his performance, as he so badly underperformed for so long. But, it might be a little quick to worry. Or... I hope it is! :) (i.e. I'm worried...)

The good news is he is still taking quality shots. Can't overcome 1-21 shooting from 3, but he will turn it around

I was really pleased to see Beal make an effort to get to the free throw line in the Detroit game. He was 0-7 from 3-point range but managed to shoot 11 free throws. Basically, on a horrific shooting night, he still managed a TS% of 43%. The Beal of last year would have had a TS% of 32%, virtually guaranteeing a loss.

Last year, Beal had 5 games with a TS% under 38% (out of 55 total games). So far this season, he has had just 1 (out of 38 total games).
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#460 » by tontoz » Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:42 pm

Not only is Beal shooting fewer 2 pt jumpers, both in real terms and especially in percentage terms, but he is shooting 47.4% between 10-22 feet. That is 10% higher than his previous best.

http://bkref.com/tiny/duSxX
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