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Political Roundtable Part XII

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#1101 » by Ruzious » Sat Feb 4, 2017 9:05 pm

Induveca wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
Induveca wrote:
Social justice movements which suddenly demand equality but have operated pretty damn freely for decades.

There is a one today in NYC demanding equality for gays, in a city where no one even notices gay couples any longer. Yet somehow they're demonstrating to "preserve their rights".

Preemptive protests against perceived future wrongs are bizarre, maybe they've consulted Miss Cleo.

LLLLOOOOLLLL. How ungrateful of them. We don't beat the crap out of them when we see them holding hands, and they still have solidarity marches! Chutzpa, right? And... having a march in February. How gay is that, right? At least do it in the right month.


What the hell are you talking about? I've had a place in Chelsea for years, gay couples holding hands was shocking in the 80s.

Give me a break. NYC/Miami/Boston/LA/SF/DC/Austin and most major cities PDAs amongst gay couples is normal. What's next proclaiming interracial couples are shocking and worthy of protest?

So, you're saying "Yes, you're right, Ruz. They should be grateful we let them hold hands and don't beat the crap out of them."

How dare they do things like try to make getting married in every state a normal thing.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#1102 » by sfam » Sat Feb 4, 2017 10:06 pm

Induveca wrote:
sfam wrote:
Induveca wrote:Sfam on one hand you say people have made a caricature of 1.6 billion muslims, then repeatedly blame "white people".

There are roughly 1.5 billion caucasians in the world, how are you not being a complete hypocrite?

Hmm, not really sure I understand this statement. I'm actually a white people. If you're saying I am blaming white people in the US for harassing and intimidating muslims, then yes, I'm guilty as charged. If you inferred I meant "all white" people, I'm not sure what to say about that.

By the way, I'm guessing most are probably confusing the term "Arab" with the term "Muslim". They are different. Arab is a cultural and language grouping. Most Arabs are Muslim, but not most Muslims are Arab. Indonesians are not Arab. The Kurds, who's society was destroyed by the British empire, dividing them between Turkey, Syria and Iraq, are not Muslim. Their women carry guns and shoot people. They wear whatever they want. Walk around Erbil, the future capital of Kurdistan, and you get a European-Turkish vibe.

It is a very fair statement to say that across the Arab world, women are treated pretty poorly on the full range of issues. Worse in some countries than others. It is simply not a fair statement to say all Muslim women are treated poorly. It just isn't factual. More to the point, the way to change those societies is with interaction and exchange. Dialog and debate,including relationship to religious traditions. Opening up the civil space. Advocacy, but in a factual way that can resonate. This is how you affect women's rights in those societies.


FYI, I've done a LOT (years) of travel/work in mostly GCC nations. The standard "educate the ignorant westerner on Arab/Muslim differences" doesn't apply.

---
Dialog and debate,including relationship to religious traditions. Opening up the civil space. Advocacy, but in a factual way that can resonate. This is how you affect women's rights in those societies.
---

From your above statement. Not a single Muslim nation in the Middle East wants any type of "dialog and debate" openly preached in public places.

Well, Tunisia certainly has made strides. The drivers for the arab spring are still in place, even if the actual result in many places like Egypt left the country worse off. But if we (the collective we, driven by the local population) waited for authoritarian leaders to decide they want more debate, we would indeed be waiting a long time. People power methodologies are a bottom up approach. Opening up the civic space is a critical step. Clearly the direction across the world right now even before Trump was the reverse - the curtailing of civic space even in places like Europe. Every indication is this trend will go in overdrive with the US leaving the national stage, as we've already seen from Ukraine.

Induveca wrote:I encourage you to grab a soapbox, and advocate for change in any GCC nation (or other wealthy ME Muslim nation), and passionately preach for improved women's rights for their citizens. As a wealthy foreigner, you'll quickly be arrested, and at best quietly deported. However if you're a citizen, or a citizen of a Muslim country prepare for a harsh jail sentence for you and any peers they locate via your social or work circles.

Well, actually there's like an entire career field dedicated to this. Its far less a soapbox than actual engagement with local folks already working on these problems in each of these places. And yeah, that picture in Cairo was me doing the "soapboxy thing" in your words. Didn't get deported but it did take like 8 months of planning. I'm actually hyper aware of the security risks.

Induveca wrote:To even pretend Americans or Europeans can significantly impact anything related to strict or partial Islamic law, via open dialogue is ridiculous. The monarchies of these nations won't allow it, the "Arab Spring" has placed even tighter regulations on expression and protest.


This is certainly the argument posed for withdrawing from the world. Its an old debate - "F" everyone else and take care of our own. Unfortunately the world is connected economically, politically and socially. That really doesn't work, especially after we blow up the region with random invasions that had no basis in fact. To your point though, there are many ways to make a difference. The approach I've spent the most time with is to improve local awareness of those in the social good space usually by connecting local technologists with local civil society folk, but there are lots of approaches - many of which have proven very successful.

But in all likelihood, the US most likely will be trying your approach for the next few years. Its pretty clear they're looking to do like a massive cut in development and diplomacy. I'm sure it will lead to improved stability, like most of Trump's international actions.

EDIT: Dialog in this case is not about country leaders talking to one another, if that wasn't clear.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#1103 » by Dat2U » Sat Feb 4, 2017 10:17 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
tontoz wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:I am saying - you don't want vigilante violence. The net result is worse for those very folks you are trying to defend/help.

The law of unintended consequences runs very deep here.

Self defense is not vigilante violence. Every US citizen has the right to defend themselves if they are attacked, for any reason.

Ah, maybe I miss-understood you. I thought you were advocating sucker punches (Richard Spencer) & or what happened in Berkley with Milo Yiannopoulos.


Milo & Spencer got what they asked for. Hate begets hate. Not saying the act of violence is right but if you decide your role in life is to antagonize others, best believe you shall reap what you sow.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#1104 » by FAH1223 » Sat Feb 4, 2017 10:24 pm

Federal Judge Robart in Washington State halted Trump's EO nationwide. Robart was appointed by Dubya in 2004, confirmed by Senate 99-0.

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter


Trump is going nuts on on Twitter about it.

No one from the 7 banned countries has committed an act of terror in this country.

Now, why isn't anyone talking about the destructive US Foreign Policy that created the conditions for these conflicts and refugees?

In Libya, we helped the French and British overthrow Gaddafi. The country is now divided and really has no central government. It's become the smuggling capital of Africa into Europe.

In Syria, since 2010, CIA was spending $1 billion per year to arm and train rebels to overthrow Assad. We thought it would be easy. But the Assad regime was backed diplomatically by China and Russia at the Security Council who both felt they got burned over not vetoing the Libya resolution. They didn't allow a no fly zone. Iran and Hezbollah provided more manpower. Russia stepped in 2015. Assad kept his head above water and the rebels have been splintered up and now there's a bunch of extremist groups because of the money coming in from Saudi/Qatar and Turkey's open border policy letting these groups plus ISIS have free movement has been a disaster. The Turks have perhaps finally realized that regime change was a disaster and now they have to deal with terrorism in their borders and can't just blame Kurds. Hopefully the talks in Kazakhstan and the ones in Geneva can finally end this terrible war.

In Somalia, there's been a civil war for a quarter century which has transformed to the current situation (clan fiefdoms and autonomous region) with Al-Shabaab weakened but still performing attacks but the central government is weak and corruption is rife and there's been no investment in a real Somali National Army... hundreds of millions annually is going to the African Union Mission which has been there since 2007.

In Yemen, we have a disaster there. The Saudis legit can not fight a war and their airstrikes have destroyed Yemen's infrastructure, its agriculture... and the naval blockade has starved the population. And they're using our weapons. The worst humanitarian crisis probably outside of Syria in the world.

Sudan had a two decades long civil war that ended in the last decade... the country was split and ironically the real problem right now is in South Sudan where there's been domestic conflict there. Northern Sudan is still under Bashir who is still wanted by the ICC and relations with the USA are still cold.

Iraq we know about.

Iran is the only country on that list which isn't a failed or semi failed state. And we have big Iranian populations in DC and LA and many dual nationals who are able to go back and forth.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#1105 » by dckingsfan » Sat Feb 4, 2017 10:25 pm

Dat2U wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
tontoz wrote:Self defense is not vigilante violence. Every US citizen has the right to defend themselves if they are attacked, for any reason.

Ah, maybe I miss-understood you. I thought you were advocating sucker punches (Richard Spencer) & or what happened in Berkley with Milo Yiannopoulos.

Milo & Spencer got what they asked for. Hate begets hate. Not saying the act of violence is right but if you decide your role in life is to antagonize others, best believe you shall reap what you sow.

:nonono: Then the haters use that to retaliate and of we go... sigh.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#1106 » by Dat2U » Sat Feb 4, 2017 11:25 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:Ah, maybe I miss-understood you. I thought you were advocating sucker punches (Richard Spencer) & or what happened in Berkley with Milo Yiannopoulos.

Milo & Spencer got what they asked for. Hate begets hate. Not saying the act of violence is right but if you decide your role in life is to antagonize others, best believe you shall reap what you sow.

:nonono: Then the haters use that to retaliate and of we go... sigh.


You missed my point. I'm not advocating violence in response to the hate they spew. I'm saying a consequence of being a hate-monger is that karma will come back their way. What goes around comes around.

Milo especially is walking a dangerous line. Gaining fame by consistently insulting others will always have a negative chain reaction. It seems like he's on a chase to be a martyr for the alt right movement.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#1107 » by dckingsfan » Sat Feb 4, 2017 11:56 pm

Dat2U wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
Dat2U wrote:Milo & Spencer got what they asked for. Hate begets hate. Not saying the act of violence is right but if you decide your role in life is to antagonize others, best believe you shall reap what you sow.

:nonono: Then the haters use that to retaliate and of we go... sigh.

You missed my point. I'm not advocating violence in response to the hate they spew. I'm saying a consequence of being a hate-monger is that karma will come back their way. What goes around comes around.

Milo especially is walking a dangerous line. Gaining fame by consistently insulting others will always have a negative chain reaction. It seems like he's on a chase to be a martyr for the alt right movement.

Yep, I did miss your point. Got it... karma is a bitch.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#1108 » by verbal8 » Sun Feb 5, 2017 12:11 am

sfam wrote:This is certainly the argument posed for withdrawing from the world. Its an old debate - "F" everyone else and take care of our own. Unfortunately the world is connected economically, politically and socially.

Isolation is a great idea, just look at how well North Korea is doing.

sfam wrote: I'm sure it will lead to improved stability, like most of Trump's international actions.


You don't have to limit it to just his international actions.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#1109 » by FAH1223 » Sun Feb 5, 2017 1:09 am

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Lmao

I do like how Trump is giving no Fs about Russia. The Russophobia in this country is ridiculous.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#1110 » by AFM » Sun Feb 5, 2017 3:32 am

AFM wrote:About 20 minutes in, and this is one of the best podcasts I've ever heard :lol: :lol: :lol:

I wish I was friends with Alex jones, he's like this autistic savant of politics :lol:

If anyone has no plans tonight, I highly suggest cracking open a 6 pack and listening to this :lol:



This might be the GOAT podcast

Alex Jones is hysterical
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#1111 » by Wizardspride » Sun Feb 5, 2017 4:48 am

FAH1223 wrote:
Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Lmao

I do like how Trump is giving no Fs about Russia. The Russophobia in this country is ridiculous.

I can only imagine how the deplorables would respond if Obama had uttered those words....

President Donald Trump referred to African countries, Haiti and El Salvador as "shithole" nations during a meeting Thursday and asked why the U.S. can't have more immigrants from Norway.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#1112 » by Wizardspride » Sun Feb 5, 2017 4:59 am

Read on Twitter

President Donald Trump referred to African countries, Haiti and El Salvador as "shithole" nations during a meeting Thursday and asked why the U.S. can't have more immigrants from Norway.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#1113 » by Wizardspride » Sun Feb 5, 2017 5:09 am

Read on Twitter

President Donald Trump referred to African countries, Haiti and El Salvador as "shithole" nations during a meeting Thursday and asked why the U.S. can't have more immigrants from Norway.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#1114 » by Induveca » Sun Feb 5, 2017 5:12 am

Ruzious wrote:
Induveca wrote:
Ruzious wrote:LLLLOOOOLLLL. How ungrateful of them. We don't beat the crap out of them when we see them holding hands, and they still have solidarity marches! Chutzpa, right? And... having a march in February. How gay is that, right? At least do it in the right month.


What the hell are you talking about? I've had a place in Chelsea for years, gay couples holding hands was shocking in the 80s.

Give me a break. NYC/Miami/Boston/LA/SF/DC/Austin and most major cities PDAs amongst gay couples is normal. What's next proclaiming interracial couples are shocking and worthy of protest?

So, you're saying "Yes, you're right, Ruz. They should be grateful we let them hold hands and don't beat the crap out of them."

How dare they do things like try to make getting married in every state a normal thing.


You're acting as if things are going backwards is my point, acceptance of homosexuals within US society is at an all time high.

It's why someone like a Peter Thiel advises the President. Also why the CEO of Apple is gay, also why you don't have the big "coming out of the closet" unveilings any longer out of Hollywood.

Almost no one cares, it's a complete norm in American society. Love is love, so what? A lot of these protests and stories merely seem to be predictions with zero factual evidence that "things will surely get worse" under Trump, when the man has been in power for 2 weeks.

Pure hysteria.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#1115 » by Wizardspride » Sun Feb 5, 2017 5:18 am

A few weeks ago Nate asked why I think (some) of Trump's supporters are absolutely "deplorables".

This video is an example of the type of Trump voter I'm referring to.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2017/02/04/trump-wisconsin-supporters-carroll-pkg.cnn

President Donald Trump referred to African countries, Haiti and El Salvador as "shithole" nations during a meeting Thursday and asked why the U.S. can't have more immigrants from Norway.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#1116 » by AFM » Sun Feb 5, 2017 5:19 am

Wizardspride wrote:
FAH1223 wrote:
Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Lmao

I do like how Trump is giving no Fs about Russia. The Russophobia in this country is ridiculous.

I can only imagine how the deplorables would respond if Obama had uttered those words....


You're 100% right. :nod:

Pretty rare to hear a president be honest like this though.
We've done a lot of terrible damage throughout history re assassinations and regime changes.

I hope trump doesn't get assasinated.
Should listen to Kennedy's speech re: secret society's he made before being head shotted.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#1117 » by Wizardspride » Sun Feb 5, 2017 5:23 am

AFM wrote:
Wizardspride wrote:
FAH1223 wrote:
Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Lmao

I do like how Trump is giving no Fs about Russia. The Russophobia in this country is ridiculous.

I can only imagine how the deplorables would respond if Obama had uttered those words....


You're 100% right. :nod:

Pretty rare to hear a president be honest like this though.
We've done a lot of terrible damage throughout history re assassinations and regime changes.

I hope trump doesn't get assasinated.
Should listen to Kennedy's speech re: secret society's he made before being head shotted.

Trump isn't necessarily wrong but I'm not sure I'd equate us to Putin.

That dude makes journalist "disappear" for petty stuff.

What I find really interesting is the how Trump talks about China versus Russia.

He's much tougher on China when in actuality both countries when you get down to it are very similiar.


Not saying he's a Putin puppet but..... :)

President Donald Trump referred to African countries, Haiti and El Salvador as "shithole" nations during a meeting Thursday and asked why the U.S. can't have more immigrants from Norway.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#1118 » by DCZards » Sun Feb 5, 2017 5:38 am

Induveca wrote:You're acting as if things are going backwards is my point, acceptance of homosexuals within US society is at an all time high.

It's why someone like a Peter Thiel advises the President. Also why the CEO of Apple is gay, also why you don't have the big "coming out of the closet" unveilings any longer out of Hollywood.

Almost no one cares, it's a complete norm in American society. Love is love, so what? A lot of these protests and stories merely seem to be predictions with zero factual evidence that "things will surely get worse" under Trump, when the man has been in power for 2 weeks.

Pure hysteria.


Pure hysteria? I don't think so.

The gay and lesbian community has every right to be concerned. Many of Trump's supporters, particularly those in the evangelical community, would like nothing more than to turn back the clock on gay rights and marriage equality. And given that Trump is a wild card who seems intent on pleasing his supporters, there's no telling what he might do. So I think it's smart for the gay and lesbian community--and its allies--to remain vigilant and mobilized.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#1119 » by AFM » Sun Feb 5, 2017 5:41 am

DCZards wrote:
Induveca wrote:You're acting as if things are going backwards is my point, acceptance of homosexuals within US society is at an all time high.

It's why someone like a Peter Thiel advises the President. Also why the CEO of Apple is gay, also why you don't have the big "coming out of the closet" unveilings any longer out of Hollywood.

Almost no one cares, it's a complete norm in American society. Love is love, so what? A lot of these protests and stories merely seem to be predictions with zero factual evidence that "things will surely get worse" under Trump, when the man has been in power for 2 weeks.

Pure hysteria.


Pure hysteria? I don't think so.

The gay and lesbian community has every right to be concerned. Many of Trump's supporters, particularly those in the evangelical community, would like nothing more than to turn back the clock on gay rights and marriage equality. And given that Trump is a wild card who seems intent on pleasing his supporters, there's no telling what he might do. So I think it's smart for the gay and lesbian community--and its allies--to remain vigilant and mobilized.


Trump is pretty pro LGBT. I'm not worried about that.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XII 

Post#1120 » by DCZards » Sun Feb 5, 2017 6:09 am

AFM wrote:
DCZards wrote:
Induveca wrote:You're acting as if things are going backwards is my point, acceptance of homosexuals within US society is at an all time high.

It's why someone like a Peter Thiel advises the President. Also why the CEO of Apple is gay, also why you don't have the big "coming out of the closet" unveilings any longer out of Hollywood.

Almost no one cares, it's a complete norm in American society. Love is love, so what? A lot of these protests and stories merely seem to be predictions with zero factual evidence that "things will surely get worse" under Trump, when the man has been in power for 2 weeks.

Pure hysteria.


Pure hysteria? I don't think so.

The gay and lesbian community has every right to be concerned. Many of Trump's supporters, particularly those in the evangelical community, would like nothing more than to turn back the clock on gay rights and marriage equality. And given that Trump is a wild card who seems intent on pleasing his supporters, there's no telling what he might do. So I think it's smart for the gay and lesbian community--and its allies--to remain vigilant and mobilized.


Trump is pretty pro LGBT. I'm not worried about that.


Trump is pro Trump. He'll do whatever he thinks will make him look good. Why should the gay and lesbian community--or any other community--trust him?

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