Political Roundtable Part XII

[Wizardspride]

It is interesting turn of events. The Ds helped create an environment that provided an opening for someone like Trump, but take no responsibility for the events that led to his election.

They lecture the opposition but didn't put forth the effort (or the candidate) in the election or the previous administrative cycle to ensure that coherent policies were moved forward.

Paraphrasing Edmund Burke - The only thing necessary for the triumph of bad government is to do nothing about bad policies.

There have been so many failures of government by both the Ds and the Rs that we now have a vicious cycle between the two.

When the party in power fails - the other party rejoices with the notion that they are less incompetent or evil than the other.

Sadly, since both parties are currently incompetent and evil (I know, tough word) and fail repetitively, the cycle is repeated.

We shouldn't blame the Trump supporters. We should blame ourselves for not holding our representatives to a higher standard. We should blame ourselves for not promoting a better candidate. We should blame ourselves for not insisting that bad policy goes away even with the loss of political capital - but we don't.

And then when the next candidate comes along with the mantra of "throw the rascals out", we are dismayed.

At some point need to take responsibility for their own actions.

Honestly, it's not like any reasonable person couldn't see what was coming...so yeah, I absolutely blame the deplorables for electing this race-baiting, sexist moron.

Sorry...


Edit: And I particularly blame so-called evangelicals for voting for Trump.

There is literally nothing moral about this guy so basically they must have just voted their politics...and that's fine.

Just don't scream about morality in the future.

[Wizardspride]

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[nate33]

Wait a minute! I thought this dossier originated on 4chan.

Obviously, "fake news"

Read on Twitter

From the article:

Officials who spoke to CNN cautioned they still have not reached any judgment on whether the Russian government has any compromising information about the President.

Officials did not comment on or confirm any alleged conversations or meetings between Russian officials and US citizens, including associates of then-candidate Trump.

One of the officials stressed to CNN they have not corroborated "the more salacious things" alleged in the dossier.

I'll wait until there's actual dirt before I worry about it.

[nate33]

Latest on the Russian/Trump blackmail scandal. The CIA has denied a security clearance to Flynn. Given that our Intelligence ops warned their Israeli against sharing info with Trumps peeps, I'm betting that internally, they believe Trump to be comprised.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/mike-flynn-nsa-aide-trump-234923


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It sounds to me like they think Flynn might be compromised, not Trump. (There's also the possibility that there's a power play going on between the entrenched Deep State operatives in the CIA and Flynn, who is evidently highly critical of the CIA.)

At this point, I don't know what to believe, but I certainly don't take all leaks from the CIA at face value.

[payitforward]

It is interesting turn of events.

(1)The Ds helped create an environment that provided an opening for someone like Trump, but take no responsibility for the events that led to his election.

(2) They lecture the opposition but didn't put forth the effort (or the candidate) in the election or the previous administrative cycle to ensure that coherent policies were moved forward.

(3) Paraphrasing Edmund Burke - The only thing necessary for the triumph of bad government is to do nothing about bad policies.

(4) There have been so many failures of government by both the Ds and the Rs that we now have a vicious cycle between the two.

When the party in power fails - the other party rejoices with the notion that they are less incompetent or evil than the other.

Sadly, since both parties are currently incompetent and evil (I know, tough word) and fail repetitively, the cycle is repeated.

We shouldn't blame the Trump supporters. We should blame ourselves for not holding our representatives to a higher standard. We should blame ourselves for not promoting a better candidate. We should blame ourselves for not insisting that bad policy goes away even with the loss of political capital - but we don't.

(5) And then when the next candidate comes along with the mantra of "throw the rascals out", we are dismayed.

Well said.

Actually, I'd describe it as pretty far-fetched, popper. & I often agree w/ dckingsfan.

That said, I do understand the depressed tone of your post, dckingsfan.

I numbered some points to make it easier to respond:

(1) When you do something, you are responsible for doing it. The people who voted for Donald Trump are responsible for electing him. If you voted for him, popper, look in the mirror & you'll see someone who has responsibility for his being President.

(2) I don't know what "lecture the opposition" means, but if it means object to what Trump's up to, then I'm glad for it. Hillary was a weak candidate, no doubt. As to lack of "effort... in the election or the previous administrative cycle to ensure that coherent policies were moved forward" that's false on the face of it. We can argue about what "coherent policies" might be, one by one, but in this sentence all I can imagine the phrase to mean is that dckings doesn't like the policies of the previous administration. I.e. "coherent" is being used as an honorific, not to describe anything at all.

(3) Burke wrote: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." He didn't mean that it wasn't possible to help evil along as well! Once again, if you voted for the guy, look in the mirror.

If not, now's not the time to "do nothing." Fight against him & defeat what he does.

(4) "...so many failures" -- you bet. All governments have "so many" failures. All companies do. All people do. There's something "vicious" in our current situation, all right; it's the guy in the white house and those who support him. Throwing up your hands and declaring that what the heck they are all "evil" is just another way to excuse yourself from responsibility for him being there (if you voted for him) or struggling against him (if you didn't).

& of course you have to "blame" his supporters -- if you don't blame them why blame him?

(5) Dude... put aside your world-weariness if you please & lets get this jackass out of the white house if at all possible; if there's something impeachable there, lets find it and impeach him.

[Wizardspride]

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[nate33]

I thought Indonesia was where all the "good Muslims" are:

A video has emerged of a woman being lashed in public with a cane in footage showing Indonesia's brutal Sharia law punishment.

The woman can be heard screaming in pain in front of a cheering crowd as she takes her cruel beating before collapsing. Dozens of civilians can be seen gathering around an elevated stage and film the events on their smartphones. A masked man, whose identity is kept completely hidden, plays to the crowd by wiggling the cane provocatively near the woman's back. He then draws it back and unleashes it across her shoulder blades for an unknown alleged crime.

The woman, wearing a white shirt and a salmon-coloured headscarf, winces in pain with every blow. Between each savage lashing, she reaches back with her hand to try and relieve the agony. When the man delivers the fifth blow, she collapses in a heap on the stage, to the sound of applause.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4210986/Woman-lashed-brutal-Sharia-law-s-traditional-punishment.html?ito=embedded

Watch on YouTube

Here's one with a woman getting 26 lashes:

Watch on YouTube

Clearly, we need more Indonesian immigrants as well. Sharia Law is awesome. Diversity is our strength.

[nate33]

Hundreds Of Sex Traffickers Arrested Across U.S. Since Trump Became President

ABC7 in Chicago is reporting that more than 100 people have been arrested in the Chicago area in recent weeks for sex trafficking. On a national stage over 750 sex traffickers have been arrested since President Trump was sworn into the Oval Office on January 20, 2017.

From ABC7:

The National Johns Suppression Initiative ran from Jan. 18 through Feb. 5 and led to the arrests of 29 sex traffickers and of 723 people who tried to purchase sex, the Cook County sheriff’s office said. It included nearly 30 law enforcement agencies across 15 states.

In Cook County, 101 alleged sex buyers were arrested by deputies and officers with the Lansing and Matteson police departments. In Lake County, two people were arrested. In Arlington Heights, five people were arrested…

…In Houston, where Super Bowl 51 was held, 178 people were arrested by the Harris County Sheriff’s police and Houston police as part of the multi-state sex sting. Harris County netted the most arrests of any participating agency.

Time Magazine notes that the National Johns Suppression Initiative is controversial because it targets the men who buy sex while trying to help the women who sell it.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/02/750-sex-criminals-arrested-across-u-s-since-trump-became-president/

I don't know if 750 sex traffic arrests in a month is a lot (relatively speaking) or not. I also don't know if Trump has anything whatsoever to do with this. He did sign several executive orders focusing on crime

[Wizardspride]

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[AFM]

I don't even check the news anymore, wizardspride is my new source

[Wizardspride]

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[AFM]

Anyone ever read A Canticle for Leibowitz? The Simpletons are coming!!

[dckingsfan]

(1) When you do something, you are responsible for doing it. The people who voted for Donald Trump are responsible for electing him. If you voted for him, popper, look in the mirror & you'll see someone who has responsibility for his being President.

We ran Hillary - we are to blame as well. Guess you know I voted for her.

(2) I don't know what "lecture the opposition" means, but if it means object to what Trump's up to, then I'm glad for it. Hillary was a weak candidate, no doubt. As to lack of "effort... in the election or the previous administrative cycle to ensure that coherent policies were moved forward" that's false on the face of it. We can argue about what "coherent policies" might be, one by one, but in this sentence all I can imagine the phrase to mean is that dckings doesn't like the policies of the previous administration. I.e. "coherent" is being used as an honorific, not to describe anything at all.

I liked some of the policies from the previous administration and not others, that goes with just about every administration sans this one (mostly disagree thus far). An example of what I mean, we can't touch entitlements. We know it isn't sustainable but we won't touch it. Policies statements like that ensure long-term failure and the yo-yo process. But we have been happy to ignore it and cite the incompetence of the other party.

I also think that we took a pretty big hit with Obama's foreign policy (in terms of local US politics and looking weak - although Trump may have done even better in his first couple of weeks with One China.

(3) Burke wrote: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." He didn't mean that it wasn't possible to help evil along as well! Once again, if you voted for the guy, look in the mirror.

If not, now's not the time to "do nothing." Fight against him & defeat what he does.

I think you missed the nuance there... Bad policy does create the ability of folks like Trump to walk through the holes that those policies create.

No disagreement on the second statement.

(4) "...so many failures" -- you bet. All governments have "so many" failures. All companies do. All people do. There's something "vicious" in our current situation, all right; it's the guy in the white house and those who support him. Throwing up your hands and declaring that what the heck they are all "evil" is just another way to excuse yourself from responsibility for him being there (if you voted for him) or struggling against him (if you didn't).

& of course you have to "blame" his supporters -- if you don't blame them why blame him?

It is hard to understand his supporters - I get that. But take the time to understand why they voted against Hillary and the status quo. I think it was an ignorant stand - but I understand it. Blame goes to both sides not just one. Denial just gets us to where we are...

(5) Dude... put aside your world-weariness if you please & lets get this jackass out of the white house if at all possible; if there's something impeachable there, lets find it and impeach him.

Like to end on something that we agree on - happily, I think Trump will do it to himself. Okay, that is more of a prediction that call to action.

I also don't understand the weariness of having these discussions. I like the back and forth and have changed my mind of subjects (crime and imprisonment via Zonk for example). But sadly, there does seem to be a higher level of vitriol in this thread right now.

[closg00]

Think about it, Trump is a reckless bully in dealing people and other countries and their leaders, EXCEPT Russia. With Russia, he is Putin's sycophant, which is the exact opposite of his personality. Trump has been comprised and our intelligence agencies are tough spot politically. The case is circumstantial so-far, but there is more to this Russian/Trump thing.


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[AFM]

I heard Trump and Putin are behind PIZZAGATE

It definitely wouldn't surprise me if Putin had dirt on Trump. Even if he doesn't, it's pretty clear Putin is Trump's idol and Trumo wishes he could rule like Putin.

PS. Anyone know who the richest person in the world is?

Spoiler:

Putin, $200 billion, although no one knows for sure. To put that in perspective, Bill Gates is no 2 with ~80 Billion.

[bealwithit]

It is interesting turn of events.

(1)The Ds helped create an environment that provided an opening for someone like Trump, but take no responsibility for the events that led to his election.

(2) They lecture the opposition but didn't put forth the effort (or the candidate) in the election or the previous administrative cycle to ensure that coherent policies were moved forward.

(3) Paraphrasing Edmund Burke - The only thing necessary for the triumph of bad government is to do nothing about bad policies.

(4) There have been so many failures of government by both the Ds and the Rs that we now have a vicious cycle between the two.

When the party in power fails - the other party rejoices with the notion that they are less incompetent or evil than the other.

Sadly, since both parties are currently incompetent and evil (I know, tough word) and fail repetitively, the cycle is repeated.

We shouldn't blame the Trump supporters. We should blame ourselves for not holding our representatives to a higher standard. We should blame ourselves for not promoting a better candidate. We should blame ourselves for not insisting that bad policy goes away even with the loss of political capital - but we don't.

(5) And then when the next candidate comes along with the mantra of "throw the rascals out", we are dismayed.

Well said.

Actually, I'd describe it as pretty far-fetched, popper. & I often agree w/ dckingsfan.

That said, I do understand the depressed tone of your post, dckingsfan.

I numbered some points to make it easier to respond:

(1) When you do something, you are responsible for doing it. The people who voted for Donald Trump are responsible for electing him. If you voted for him, popper, look in the mirror & you'll see someone who has responsibility for his being President.

(2) I don't know what "lecture the opposition" means, but if it means object to what Trump's up to, then I'm glad for it. Hillary was a weak candidate, no doubt. As to lack of "effort... in the election or the previous administrative cycle to ensure that coherent policies were moved forward" that's false on the face of it. We can argue about what "coherent policies" might be, one by one, but in this sentence all I can imagine the phrase to mean is that dckings doesn't like the policies of the previous administration. I.e. "coherent" is being used as an honorific, not to describe anything at all.

(3) Burke wrote: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." He didn't mean that it wasn't possible to help evil along as well! Once again, if you voted for the guy, look in the mirror.

If not, now's not the time to "do nothing." Fight against him & defeat what he does.

(4) "...so many failures" -- you bet. All governments have "so many" failures. All companies do. All people do. There's something "vicious" in our current situation, all right; it's the guy in the white house and those who support him. Throwing up your hands and declaring that what the heck they are all "evil" is just another way to excuse yourself from responsibility for him being there (if you voted for him) or struggling against him (if you didn't).

& of course you have to "blame" his supporters -- if you don't blame them why blame him?

(5) Dude... put aside your world-weariness if you please & lets get this jackass out of the white house if at all possible; if there's something impeachable there, lets find it and impeach him.

Took the words out of my mouth PIF.

I just wanted to add on that acting like the Democratic Party and Republican Party are equally "incompetent and evil" is just not true. One party is coherent and presenting sensible, clear policy while the other has completely abandoned its principles because their voters chose a conning buffoon and they are unable to do things like present a clear replacement healthcare plan that they talked such a big game about and have slapped together the most unqualified, openly corrupt, by far wealthiest and potentially destructive cabinets in history.

I am no fan of bought out Democrats like Cory Booker who don't seem to understand that using Citizens United to your benefit is not what real progressives want and is just going to be your typical establishment Democrat when he runs. I was also no fan of Hillary Clinton, but she was one of the most qualified candidates to ever run for President. Her problem was she ran in the wrong election, being a boring (dumb that something like this matters so much, but it's how Americans are) corporatist running against an entertaining populist when that was what the country wanted. But to act like the two parties are equal is not correct. False equivalencies is what got us into this mess.

[nate33]

I heard Trump and Putin are behind PIZZAGATE

It definitely wouldn't surprise me if Putin had dirt on Trump. Even if he doesn't, it's pretty clear Putin is Trump's idol and Trumo wishes he could rule like Putin.

PS. Anyone know who the richest person in the world is?

Spoiler:

Putin, $200 billion, although no one knows for sure. To put that in perspective, Bill Gates is no 2 with ~80 Billion.

That $200B figure is wild speculation though. I'm sure he's been an effective kleptocrat who has stolen plenty from Russia, but I question that $200B figure.

[popper]

It is interesting turn of events.

(1)The Ds helped create an environment that provided an opening for someone like Trump, but take no responsibility for the events that led to his election.

(2) They lecture the opposition but didn't put forth the effort (or the candidate) in the election or the previous administrative cycle to ensure that coherent policies were moved forward.

(3) Paraphrasing Edmund Burke - The only thing necessary for the triumph of bad government is to do nothing about bad policies.

(4) There have been so many failures of government by both the Ds and the Rs that we now have a vicious cycle between the two.

When the party in power fails - the other party rejoices with the notion that they are less incompetent or evil than the other.

Sadly, since both parties are currently incompetent and evil (I know, tough word) and fail repetitively, the cycle is repeated.

We shouldn't blame the Trump supporters. We should blame ourselves for not holding our representatives to a higher standard. We should blame ourselves for not promoting a better candidate. We should blame ourselves for not insisting that bad policy goes away even with the loss of political capital - but we don't.

(5) And then when the next candidate comes along with the mantra of "throw the rascals out", we are dismayed.

Well said.

Actually, I'd describe it as pretty far-fetched, popper. & I often agree w/ dckingsfan.

That said, I do understand the depressed tone of your post, dckingsfan.

I numbered some points to make it easier to respond:

(1) When you do something, you are responsible for doing it. The people who voted for Donald Trump are responsible for electing him. If you voted for him, popper, look in the mirror & you'll see someone who has responsibility for his being President.

(2) I don't know what "lecture the opposition" means, but if it means object to what Trump's up to, then I'm glad for it. Hillary was a weak candidate, no doubt. As to lack of "effort... in the election or the previous administrative cycle to ensure that coherent policies were moved forward" that's false on the face of it. We can argue about what "coherent policies" might be, one by one, but in this sentence all I can imagine the phrase to mean is that dckings doesn't like the policies of the previous administration. I.e. "coherent" is being used as an honorific, not to describe anything at all.

(3) Burke wrote: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." He didn't mean that it wasn't possible to help evil along as well! Once again, if you voted for the guy, look in the mirror.

If not, now's not the time to "do nothing." Fight against him & defeat what he does.

(4) "...so many failures" -- you bet. All governments have "so many" failures. All companies do. All people do. There's something "vicious" in our current situation, all right; it's the guy in the white house and those who support him. Throwing up your hands and declaring that what the heck they are all "evil" is just another way to excuse yourself from responsibility for him being there (if you voted for him) or struggling against him (if you didn't).

& of course you have to "blame" his supporters -- if you don't blame them why blame him?

(5) Dude... put aside your world-weariness if you please & lets get this jackass out of the white house if at all possible; if there's something impeachable there, lets find it and impeach him.

I'd respond PIF but after six years of beating my head against the wall I know it would do no good. I've enjoyed reading the arguments of my progressive friends here and will continue to do so but the ideological die is cast and there is no point in me repeating the arguments I have made in the past. I think the battle lines are firmly drawn and we will have to see how it all plays out. My sincere hope is that it will be a peaceful and lawful reckoning.

[Induveca]

I'll still call it as I see it, after having grown up with it. Hysterics.

Much like republicans after Obama's election, there is no desire to work with Trump, but to an exponential factor of X (assign value yourselves). Trump is an oddball, but he's an elected oddball with a near even split of the voting tally. Logically should we not complain/attack after 6 months. Not 1 week in.....

Agreed with Popper, a bizarre line in the sand has been drawn between a nation of hundreds of millions apparently only able to "believe" in two ideologies pushed by political parties.

I've got a month left here in the US for a period of time and I'll be watching from afar, but still participating and ever hopeful the US can come back together. Sadly, and this does frighten me....I pray it doesn't take another horrible incident to bring back that bond.

For the horrors of 2001, watching everyone come together was an amazing display of the human spirit, I'd like to think not only only tragedy could bring sanity back to these discussions. Let's all try to remember, at the end of the day we all want the same thing. Physical and financial security for our loved ones.

One exec order impacting 10% (and in reality less than 1/10th of 1 percent) of Muslim individuals connected to war torn countries isn't cause to lose your sanity.

[bealwithit]

I'll still call it as I see it, after having grown up with it. Hysterics.

Much like republicans after Obama's election, there is no desire to work with Trump, but to an exponential factor of X (assign value yourselves). Trump is an oddball, but he's an elected oddball with a near even split of the voting tally. Logically should we not complain/attack after 6 months. Not 1 week in.....

Agreed with Popper, a bizarre line in the sand has been drawn between a nation of hundreds of millions apparently only able to "believe" in two ideologies pushed by political parties.

I've got a month left here in the US for a period of time and I'll be watching from afar, but still participating and ever hopeful the US can come back together. Sadly, and this does frighten me....I pray it doesn't take another horrible incident to bring back that bond.

For the horrors of 2001, watching everyone come together was an amazing display of the human spirit, I'd like to think not only only tragedy could bring sanity back to these discussions. Let's all try to remember, at the end of the day we all want the same thing. Physical and financial security for our loved ones.

One exec order impacting 10% (and in reality less than 1/10th of 1 percent) of Muslim individuals connected to war torn countries isn't cause to lose your sanity.

When the other side consistently lies, uses terms like "alternative facts" and defends it, there's no common ground from which to work together. It's two different worlds people are living in. That's the problem.

Is Congress going to work better in this kind of a climate? Probably not, but the Republicans decided to make stagnation and obstruction an American political tradition. Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan get no sympathy from me about "unity" and "coming together".