The (Quintessential) Trade Thread, 2017 (Part 5.0)

[bucknersrevenge]

I've seen claims that Curry had the best offensive season of all time just last year. That may be true from an absolute standpoint, but you have to adjust for how much more efficient offenses are in the pace-and-space era. In 90-91 Jordan posted an O-Rating of 125 with a usage rate of 32%. Last year Curry posted nearly identical numbers (his usage was slightly higher than MJs). But in 90-91 the league average offensive rating was 107.9, while last year it was 108.6. Not a huge difference for those 2 seasons, but enough where I'd give MJ the edge. In some seasons, the difference is huge, however, like in 03-04 when the average offensive rating was 102.

My point is, I think there is some recency bias at play here, but it's hard and certainly subjective to rank players across eras. If you rank players by "highest peak" then Curry has a case for being named in the top 20, but I'd have him at least 5-10 spots lower.

I grew up on Larry and Magic's entire careers and am not prone to recency bias. I think some are prone to nostalgia, which is especially silly when they were too young to see Larry and Magic play. A very similar dynamic exists with Niners fans trying to discredit Brady over Montana, and they are equally as wrong.

Like it or not, Curry is already historically elite. He does not need anyone's permission slip for that.

FWIW, should we adjust for the lack of parity and team defense in the 1980s? Or MJ's lack of elite rivals in the 1990s?

Curry being a top 20-25 player already at this point in his career is not even a debatable point, quite frankly.

Yeah I'm inclined to agree with Cave. Based on that list, I'd feel pretty comfortable having him in the 20-25 range. Curry is the most primary figure in changing how this game is being played now. And what he did last year...you'll never see that again. Even he I don't think will ever have another season like that. It simply cannot be overstated how ridiculous he was last year. It was like watching someone play Double Dribble with the kinds of shots he was taking. His efficiency is unbelievable. No problem putting him 20-25 right now. May end up Top 10 by the time he's done.

[DarkAzcura]

What makes it a stark contrast is that you can't see that currently IT is pretty much doing what Curry was doing two years ago.

Curry was winning a title out of a historically elite conference two years ago.

Did you miss the part where I said you were doing this before he won MVP? You have been hyping Curry for years and justifiably so even when most doubted him (I remember big Curry supporters pretty well because I've been on his hype train since college). Now you have two MVPs and a championship to point to. Not saying IT will ever get to THAT point, because again Curry's last season was probably the greatest offensive season ever. Two seasons ago, though? I have no issue saying IT is playing on that level right now. He just is. He's doing very, very similar things right now in terms of impact. It's just an odd contrast. You were always so willing to jump on the Curry train, and that's why it is odd to still see you promote the bench stuff with IT. It's too extreme, and that was the point. Not that I think they are the same level of player historically because they most definitely are not.

EDIT: anyway, honestly this is just beating a dead horse at this point. I'll stop with the continued derailing.

[Bohemian]

Alright, so I guess when can let the rumors rest for another 48 hours. Madness will return on Monday until Thursday´s frenzy. Honestly, although the team looks solid (except for our rebounding issues) and although it might seem nothing will be done, this is when Danny usually attacks and makes deals. For some reasons, I link this to the Green for Perk trade times. Maybe I have memory issues, but I recall we thought there wouldn´t be many trades back then

[celtxman]

As far as him being a top 5 or 10 player of all time that is a joke he isn't a top 5 player of his own era.

CBS Sports just came out with a top 50 ever list. Curry is 19th only halfway through his career, ahead of all Celtics save Russell, Bird and KG (who would not be ahead of Curry with only his post-Minny career).

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/cbs-sports-50-greatest-nba-players-of-all-time-where-do-lebron-curry-rank/

The CBS authors say it all with Curry when they open with "Millenial Bias?" in regards to Curry. Maybe they ought to at least look at 2 minutes of film of Havlicek before they gush out Curry's name. These lists ALWAYS have an agenda. I remember years ago writing to an author who actually had Andre Kirilenko 10 spots in front of Paul Pierce in a poll of existing Top 25 in the NBA.
So when you list Curry 14 spots in front of Havlicek NOW, you are saying if Curry has a career ending injury , he has already done more than Havlicek. As Tommy would tell you when he coached him and now, " Give me a break!"

[chrisab123]

Alright, so I guess when can let the rumors rest for another 48 hours. Madness will return on Monday until Thursday´s frenzy. Honestly, although the team looks solid (except for our rebounding issues) and although it might seem nothing will be done, this is when Danny usually attacks and makes deals. For some reasons, I link this to the Green for Perk trade times. Maybe I have memory issues, but I recall we thought there wouldn´t be many trades back then

Last time Ainge made a deadline deal was two years ago. Last year stood pat. I think he stands pat again this year. Just seems like unless someone over pays him on any of his players even someone like Zeller or Young he is content keeping this current roster.

[darrendaye]

Read on Twitter

Please, and thank you.

[Celts17Pride]

Read on Twitter

Please, and thank you.

Seriously, it's the right move

[SmartWentCrazy]

Read on Twitter

Please, and thank you.

I believed Simmons when he said that Wyc wants to build through the draft. I really want to see how top young prospects grow in 50+ win environment from a pure case study element.

[ThirtyFour]

Read on Twitter

Please, and thank you.

Seriously, it's the right move

A little misleading, he says "I" don't anticipate any changes but he'll see what Danny brings him, big difference between that and telling fans not to anticipate any changes as the headline suggests.

[canman1971]

Read on Twitter

Please, and thank you.

I believed Simmons when he said that Wyc wants to build through the draft. I really want to see how top young prospects grow in 50+ win environment from a pure case study element.

This is just general cookie cutter coach talk. What the hell is he supposed to say? "yeah, I think Danny is gonna gut this team and make wholesale changes." I mean, this is just boring ****. And Kyle Draper is such a hack.

[VeryMuchWoke]

I've seen claims that Curry had the best offensive season of all time just last year. That may be true from an absolute standpoint, but you have to adjust for how much more efficient offenses are in the pace-and-space era. In 90-91 Jordan posted an O-Rating of 125 with a usage rate of 32%. Last year Curry posted nearly identical numbers (his usage was slightly higher than MJs). But in 90-91 the league average offensive rating was 107.9, while last year it was 108.6. Not a huge difference for those 2 seasons, but enough where I'd give MJ the edge. In some seasons, the difference is huge, however, like in 03-04 when the average offensive rating was 102.

My point is, I think there is some recency bias at play here, but it's hard and certainly subjective to rank players across eras. If you rank players by "highest peak" then Curry has a case for being named in the top 20, but I'd have him at least 5-10 spots lower.

I grew up on Larry and Magic's entire careers and am not prone to recency bias. I think some are prone to nostalgia, which is especially silly when they were too young to see Larry and Magic play. A very similar dynamic exists with Niners fans trying to discredit Brady over Montana, and they are equally as wrong.

Like it or not, Curry is already historically elite. He does not need anyone's permission slip for that.

FWIW, should we adjust for the lack of parity and team defense in the 1980s? Or MJ's lack of elite rivals in the 1990s?

Curry being a top 20-25 player already at this point in his career is not even a debatable point, quite frankly.

You missed the point entirely, which is that whether or not you adjust for these things, how and how much you adjust for them is entirely subjective. As I said, Curry turned in arguably the best offensive season of all time last year. There is an argument to be made for him in the top 15 if you value "peak" production. On the other hand, if you value longevity, he's only been doing it for 2 years ,and maybe he doesn't even make your top 40.

Again, whether you value the bigger stronger dude who scored efficiently in the physical hand-checking bully-ball era or the scrawny short dude who did the same against more complex defenses and quicker defenders is subjective.

[SmartWentCrazy]

Read on Twitter

Please, and thank you.

I believed Simmons when he said that Wyc wants to build through the draft. I really want to see how top young prospects grow in 50+ win environment from a pure case study element.

This is just general cookie cutter coach talk. What the hell is he supposed to say? "yeah, I think Danny is gonna gut this team and make wholesale changes." I mean, this is just boring ****. And Kyle Draper is such a hack.

Let me dream, man. Let me dream.

And yah, Draper sucks.

[darrendaye]

This is just general cookie cutter coach talk. What the hell is he supposed to say? "yeah, I think Danny is gonna gut this team and make wholesale changes." I mean, this is just boring ****. And Kyle Draper is such a hack.

I fell for the headline, matched my agenda, lol.

[StevensArmy]

The Celtics have certainly been getting a lot more attention lately, especially from the sports radio dudes around here. You can tell, almost immediately, that they do not know much about this team, and in some cases basketball as a whole.

I've been thinking about the Celtics roster potential going forward. Boston has a chance to have one of the best young lineups in the league in about 17 months.

Fultz/Smart/Brown/Bamba/Zizic
Could be Ball instead of Fultz, or Ayton instead of Bamba, and a variety of other possibilities.

Ultimately, the Celtics have plenty of assets to use in a trade without using the Brooklyn picks. The only real team need is another quality big. Avery coming back, and Brown coming back will give Smart the second unit back. He has been really good running the offense with the second unit.

I hope this is in line with DA’s thinking. He has stated that he has a plan and will not deal to jeopardize the long-term future of the franchise. I hope this would rule out using multiple valuable assets in a trade for a player, while an all-star, in the midst of their prime. A player like Butler, age 28 at the start of next season is potentially only 3-4 years away from the beginning his decline. I’m looking at Philadelphia and worried about the team they could become. When Embid is healthy, Philly is a near playoff team. When they add Simmons, two 2017 high lottery picks in a deep and talented draft, additional picks or players coming back in trades of Okafor or Noel or both and a key free agent signing, the Celtics might be chasing them in the standings in the not too distant future.
A hypothetical could see Philly next season already having assembled a future starting 5 of PG Jrue Holiday (FA signing), SG/Point Forward Simmons, SF Tatum, PF Isaac and C Embiid.
The Celtics will need both Brooklyn picks to keep pace with Philly in 3 years. The hypothetical future Celtics starting 5 of PG Fultz or Ball, SG Smart, SF Brown, Bamba or PF/C Ayton or C Zucic may still not be enough to compete with their starting 5.

[radcot]

As far as him being a top 5 or 10 player of all time that is a joke he isn't a top 5 player of his own era.

CBS Sports just came out with a top 50 ever list. Curry is 19th only halfway through his career, ahead of all Celtics save Russell, Bird and KG (who would not be ahead of Curry with only his post-Minny career).

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/cbs-sports-50-greatest-nba-players-of-all-time-where-do-lebron-curry-rank/

The CBS authors say it all with Curry when they open with "Millenial Bias?" in regards to Curry. Maybe they ought to at least look at 2 minutes of film of Havlicek before they gush out Curry's name. These lists ALWAYS have an agenda. I remember years ago writing to an author who actually had Andre Kirilenko 10 spots in front of Paul Pierce in a poll of existing Top 25 in the NBA.
So when you list Curry 14 spots in front of Havlicek NOW, you are saying if Curry has a career ending injury , he has already done more than Havlicek. As Tommy would tell you when he coached him and now, " Give me a break!"

Difficult to say where Curry ranks in career achievement halfway through his career (although it's certainly high), but he already belongs on a short list of players who transformed the game: Cousy, Chamberlain/Russell, Bird/Magic, MJ, LeBron. That's a pretty remarkable achievement no matter how you slice it.

[DarkAzcura]

Read on Twitter

Please, and thank you.

I believed Simmons when he said that Wyc wants to build through the draft. I really want to see how top young prospects grow in 50+ win environment from a pure case study element.

Just see the Spurs with Kawhi. I know he wasn't a top prospect out of college, but he was pretty good. We could have three shots at that type of development with Brown, BKN17, and BKN18. This is the direction I also wanted the Celtics to go through. Ideally Brown and BKN17 will be hitting the very beginning of their primes as IT and Horford exit theirs ala the Spurs with Kawhi a few years back..there may be one perfect storm year where the young guys are starting to put it together and IT/Horford are still significant contributors.

[Trippinskarlo]

Celtics
In: kevin Love, KOQ
Out: Bradley, Rozier, memphis pick, boston 2018 pick, 2nd rounder, filler.

Knicks
In: memphis pick, boston 2018, 2nd rounder, filler.
Out: Melo, KOQ

Cavs
In: Bradley, rozier, Melo
Out: Love, filler

Celtics get a skilled big that rebounds and can shoot the three. Works great ib the system and is a legit allstar. We also get another big with potential on the glass and defensively. This frees up our backcourt as well for our players of the future.

Knicks get to dump melo and get decent value. Can now easily tank for picks and get multiple firsts to help them rebuild properlu.

Cavs get another guy in melo that can get his own. Takes tons of pressure off lebron and great in playoffs. They also get one of the best 3 and d players in the entire league, as well as add a quality backup or even starting pg in rozier. They get much deeper and Love is a huge injury liability.

Feedback? Try not to be to harsh, firsr trade I have ever put together and I dont really understand the cap so well. More wondering if the value is there and if you think the teams in question pull the trigger.

Sorry for any typos,
Thanks.

[Cornbread]

Celtics
In: kevin Love, KOQ
Out: Bradley, Rozier, memphis pick, boston 2018 pick, 2nd rounder, filler.

Knicks
In: memphis pick, boston 2018, 2nd rounder, filler.
Out: Melo, KOQ

Cavs
In: Bradley, rozier, Melo
Out: Love, filler

Celtics get a skilled big that rebounds and can shoot the three. Works great ib the system and is a legit allstar. We also get another big with potential on the glass and defensively. This frees up our backcourt as well for our players of the future.

Knicks get to dump melo and get decent value. Can now easily tank for picks and get multiple firsts to help them rebuild properlu.

Cavs get another guy in melo that can get his own. Takes tons of pressure off lebron and great in playoffs. They also get one of the best 3 and d players in the entire league, as well as add a quality backup or even starting pg in rozier. They get much deeper and Love is a huge injury liability.

Feedback? Try not to be to harsh, firsr trade I have ever put together and I dont really understand the cap so well. More wondering if the value is there and if you think the teams in question pull the trigger.

Sorry for any typos,
Thanks.

Without getting into the details, the general framework of Bradley/Melo to the Cavs, Love to the Cs, assets to the Knicks makes sense. Probably need one moderate asset to go from Cleveland to NY in addition to the assets from the Cs.

[Trippinskarlo]

Spoiler:

Celtics
In: kevin Love, KOQ
Out: Bradley, Rozier, memphis pick, boston 2018 pick, 2nd rounder, filler.

Knicks
In: memphis pick, boston 2018, 2nd rounder, filler.
Out: Melo, KOQ

Cavs
In: Bradley, rozier, Melo
Out: Love, filler

Celtics get a skilled big that rebounds and can shoot the three. Works great ib the system and is a legit allstar. We also get another big with potential on the glass and defensively. This frees up our backcourt as well for our players of the future.

Knicks get to dump melo and get decent value. Can now easily tank for picks and get multiple firsts to help them rebuild properlu.

Cavs get another guy in melo that can get his own. Takes tons of pressure off lebron and great in playoffs. They also get one of the best 3 and d players in the entire league, as well as add a quality backup or even starting pg in rozier. They get much deeper and Love is a huge injury liability.

Feedback? Try not to be to harsh, firsr trade I have ever put together and I dont really understand the cap so well. More wondering if the value is there and if you think the teams in question pull the trigger.

Sorry for any typos,
Thanks.

Without getting into the details, the general framework of Bradley/Melo to the Cavs, Love to the Cs, assets to the Knicks makes sense. Probably need one moderate asset to go from Cleveland to NY in addition to the assets from the Cs.

Hey thanks for taking a look. I see a move like this to be a "first domino to fall" move. We get to reatain the nets picks, brown, and smart so danny still has tons of firepower to get creative with and I think this move gets us to th ECF. With our assets and our coach you then might even get guys willing to take a discount to come play here. I think if we consolidate some non bk assets into an allstar we could have a fantastic chance of hanging banner 18. Everybody under 30 as well!

[Cornbread]

Spoiler:

Celtics
In: kevin Love, KOQ
Out: Bradley, Rozier, memphis pick, boston 2018 pick, 2nd rounder, filler.

Knicks
In: memphis pick, boston 2018, 2nd rounder, filler.
Out: Melo, KOQ

Cavs
In: Bradley, rozier, Melo
Out: Love, filler

Celtics get a skilled big that rebounds and can shoot the three. Works great ib the system and is a legit allstar. We also get another big with potential on the glass and defensively. This frees up our backcourt as well for our players of the future.

Knicks get to dump melo and get decent value. Can now easily tank for picks and get multiple firsts to help them rebuild properlu.

Cavs get another guy in melo that can get his own. Takes tons of pressure off lebron and great in playoffs. They also get one of the best 3 and d players in the entire league, as well as add a quality backup or even starting pg in rozier. They get much deeper and Love is a huge injury liability.

Feedback? Try not to be to harsh, firsr trade I have ever put together and I dont really understand the cap so well. More wondering if the value is there and if you think the teams in question pull the trigger.

Sorry for any typos,
Thanks.

Without getting into the details, the general framework of Bradley/Melo to the Cavs, Love to the Cs, assets to the Knicks makes sense. Probably need one moderate asset to go from Cleveland to NY in addition to the assets from the Cs.

Hey thanks for taking a look. I see a move like this to be a "first domino to fall" move. We get to reatain the nets picks, brown, and smart so danny still has tons of firepower to get creative with and I think this move gets us to th ECF. With our assets and our coach you then might even get guys willing to take a discount to come play here. I think if we consolidate some non bk assets into an allstar we could have a fantastic chance of hanging banner 18. Everybody under 30 as well!