Anyone else not onboard with the direction of this team? #Treadmill

[Johnny Bball]

bro ur delusional if u think the raptors are gonna pay a penalty of $3.75 on top of every dollar of salary in order to resign all our guys. (which is the threshold we would meet in order to re-sign all the boys back)

You don't understand it right. First off, it's not 3.75 on every dollar over the tax, or for even every dollar over 20 million over the tax. Its incremental like your income tax. Its 3.75 for every dollar over 20 million over the cap. Its 1.50 for 0-5, 1.75 from 5-10 etc. And we aren't paying the repeater tax which was you original argument which you have now moved on from

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q21

Then there is the fact that Ujiri has repeatedly stated that he has the commitment from MLSE to spend what it takes. That was as recent as this week.

Ibaka and Tucker are both free agents this summer, but the Raptors do have their Bird rights and Ujiri reaffirmed the commitment from ownership to do whatever and spend whatever it takes.

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/02/23/raptors-acquire-pj-tucker-of-the-suns

You haven't also understood the tax is moving much further up each year up to 2020. Or that we can shed other salary. You just go with the max number and run around panicking.

Before you call people delusional, figure what the heck you're talking about first. Bro.

If you shed salary, you're becoming worse. Since you aren't good enough now how are you going to get better losing a piece? And yes the tax does go up each year....but after we re-sign Lowry, PP and Ibaka this off-season? It's Powell and Bebe the next. It's not like this season is the last year we have to re-sign guys.

You honestly put so little though into this, I don't know why I respond. If Delon Wright proves he can play we can shed Joseph, Or Poelt in the next couple years, JV, etc.

But conviently you ignore the real meat of my post which was both of you didn't understand the tax concept or have any of it right, or that MLSE has committed the money to the team, and you harp on the lesser of all points. I've said all I need to here.

[Zeno]

bro ur delusional if u think the raptors are gonna pay a penalty of $3.75 on top of every dollar of salary in order to resign all our guys. (which is the threshold we would meet in order to re-sign all the boys back)

You don't understand it right. First off, it's not 3.75 on every dollar over the tax, or for even every dollar over 20 million over the tax. Its incremental like your income tax. Its 3.75 for every dollar over 20 million over the cap. Its 1.50 for 0-5, 1.75 from 5-10 etc. And we aren't paying the repeater tax which was you original argument which you have now moved on from

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q21

Then there is the fact that Ujiri has repeatedly stated that he has the commitment from MLSE to spend what it takes. That was as recent as this week.

Ibaka and Tucker are both free agents this summer, but the Raptors do have their Bird rights and Ujiri reaffirmed the commitment from ownership to do whatever and spend whatever it takes.

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/02/23/raptors-acquire-pj-tucker-of-the-suns

You haven't also understood the tax is moving much further up each year up to 2020. Or that we can shed other salary. You just go with the max number and run around panicking.

Before you call people delusional, figure what the heck you're talking about first. Bro.

If you shed salary, you're becoming worse. Since you aren't good enough now how are you going to get better losing a piece? And yes the tax does go up each year....but after we re-sign Lowry, PP and Ibaka this off-season? It's Powell and Bebe the next. It's not like this season is the last year we have to re-sign guys.

Delon for example is only going to get better. He can, by next year, replacing Cory at a savings of 6 million dollars. Carroll has been a disappointment as well. If you traded him to the Nets with the 1st rounder for RHJ and resigned Tucker at let's 10 million to be the starter, I don't think the overall talent has gone down, but that saves an additional 5 million. You could do the same thing with JV. Bebe and Poeltl will be one year better able to step up and don't forget the assets you'd be getting back in the trades. There is a succession plan for these guys. I don't think there would necessarily be a drop off in talent at all.

[Red_White_Black]

1995-1998: We sucked.
1999-2002: We sucked less. Actually, we were good in 2001. Had VC made that bucket, we probably would've made the finals. So 1 quality year of Raptors basketball total.
2003-2005: Sucked.
2006-2008: Pretty much sucked. Couldn't win a round.
2009-2012: Sucked.
2013-Present: Hey, look - we're good. We actually have a shot of making the finals. This is incredible.

I can understand fretting about the future if you're somewhat of a new fan. But if you're like me and have been a fan since day 1, shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Amen! This continuity, players wanting to stay, and now 4 years straight of making the playoffs is a treadmill I can run a marathon on.

Day 1 fans know whats up. I cannot believe people are labeling the raptors "treadmill".. my god. We have found a way to compete and built for the future simultaneously, we have so many young assets as well as established all-stars in their prime.

Do you want to blow it up? If you are bothered by the raptors being a "treadmill" team, how the f are you going to handle waiting 4-7 years (see Minny, or philly) for the OPPORTUNITY to sniff the ECF? Jeez man!

I think you misread my post. What I meant to say is, if fans think this is a treadmill team then I will gladly stay on this "treadmill" because I am happy with where we are at considering our history. (ie. I DON'T think we are a treadmill)

[phanman]

Even though the overall theory on the trade deadline moves is that Masai is going all-in with the roster, I find it anything but. Only Demar, JV and Carroll have big-long contracts and this off season, regardless with how we finish off the season is still a big question mark. Other than that 1st rounder (worst of the two), we really gave up pieces that needed to move anyways and it allows the organization to properly evaluate the team with all of the major holes plugged in. Ross needed to moved regardless of the return package to make room for Norm, Sully wasn't doing anything here, and we have too many young players already to bring in more prospects.

I think if the Ibaka experiment works out, Patterson is as good as gone. Despite how good he is in the lineup, Ibaka just checks all the boxes he does, but at a higher level. He also has the size and shot blocking presence to slide over to the 5. Paying 20m for Ibaka and then another 12-15m for Patterson just isn't feasible, with the amount that is going to be required to bring back Lowry.

Cojo is as good as gone in the off season with Wright emerging, and likewise with Tucker who will price himself out. I don't see the team moving JV nor Carroll, barring a collapse down the stretch

[Darkseid]

SMH, Raptors breeds fans that actively want to lose.

[Torch23]

Long time lurker, haven't posted in a long time but check in here with some regularity. Logging in for my first time in years to give the OP some sh*t. First off, way to try and frame the argument assuming you're already correct. A correct poll would be "Are you happy with the Raptors roster as currently constructed" and letting people make their own decisions on our closeness to contention. Aside from what everyone else has said about enjoying the ride, and not being privy to MLSE spending decisions, I don't know where all you pessimistic Raptors fans are getting this zero percent chance business from. First off, there are lots of precedents of underdogs winning in sports-including two in the NBA since the OP has been watching! Furthermore, the 04 Pistons were like the Raps in so many ways....from potentially facing a "super-team", to having a late bloomer PG to trading for a tough stretch 4 mid-season. More inportantly, if we have a "better your life on it 0 percent chance", why do Vegas oddsmakers have us at 60 to 1 odds. So, definitely not good, but better than 22 other teams and higher than 0. Are the 0 percenters on a casual site really that much better than professional gamblers? And what about injuries? Also, this is coming off a slide and we haven't seen Tucker or Ibaka in uniform yet.

I'm not suggesting we will win it, just that it IS possible. To suggest otherwise is unnecessary pessimism. Lastly, we are in a pretty great position going forward. We have, as other readers pointed out, assets, bird rights, and an organization that has at least claimed they are willing to pay the luxury tax. And let's not forget it took a new coach with a team friendly system that cut way down on ISOs to get GS out of the first round. Not to mention DD has found something to improve on every single year. If we do falter, a new coach and a DD who adds a 3 ball (or defence) could make a huge difference for the club and propel them to the top. Maybe, maybe not but we'll never know. Tom Brady was a 7th round pick. Isaiah Thomas was the last pick of the draft. The Lakers were supposed to sweep the Pistons. In sports, nothing is predetermined, so stop acting arrogant and pessimistic and enjoy the ride!!

[kilpin]

I'd probably swap rosters with 3-4 teams in the league, not more. What do we have to do not to have people complaining? Four years ago, being as good as we are now, was more than a dream! We just made some very good moves, we are an interesting team to watch. Let's just focus on basketball games and stop with this!

[HolyMage110]

No. Treadmill was when the raps were fighting for the 8th seed a few seasons back (before MU)

[Klayforspicy]

Even a 7-8 seed team can become contenders in an instant. See what HOU has done.

I think treadmilling all depends on your teams flexibility.

[LonZoBallin]

You don't understand it right. First off, it's not 3.75 on every dollar over the tax, or for even every dollar over 20 million over the tax. Its incremental like your income tax. Its 3.75 for every dollar over 20 million over the cap. Its 1.50 for 0-5, 1.75 from 5-10 etc. And we aren't paying the repeater tax which was you original argument which you have now moved on from

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q21

Then there is the fact that Ujiri has repeatedly stated that he has the commitment from MLSE to spend what it takes. That was as recent as this week.



http://www.torontosun.com/2017/02/23/raptors-acquire-pj-tucker-of-the-suns

You haven't also understood the tax is moving much further up each year up to 2020. Or that we can shed other salary. You just go with the max number and run around panicking.

Before you call people delusional, figure what the heck you're talking about first. Bro.

If you shed salary, you're becoming worse. Since you aren't good enough now how are you going to get better losing a piece? And yes the tax does go up each year....but after we re-sign Lowry, PP and Ibaka this off-season? It's Powell and Bebe the next. It's not like this season is the last year we have to re-sign guys.

You honestly put so little though into this, I don't know why I respond. If Delon Wright proves he can play we can shed Joseph, Or Poelt in the next couple years, JV, etc.

But conviently you ignore the real meat of my post which was both of you didn't understand the tax concept or have any of it right, or that MLSE has committed the money to the team, and you harp on the lesser of all points. I've said all I need to here.

My point exactly lmao you are planning to dump players on the team for current players that are on the team lol Great formula to get better.

Nah, treadmill

[sbsat]

Amen! This continuity, players wanting to stay, and now 4 years straight of making the playoffs is a treadmill I can run a marathon on.

Day 1 fans know whats up. I cannot believe people are labeling the raptors "treadmill".. my god. We have found a way to compete and built for the future simultaneously, we have so many young assets as well as established all-stars in their prime.

Do you want to blow it up? If you are bothered by the raptors being a "treadmill" team, how the f are you going to handle waiting 4-7 years (see Minny, or philly) for the OPPORTUNITY to sniff the ECF? Jeez man!

I think you misread my post. What I meant to say is, if fans think this is a treadmill team then I will gladly stay on this "treadmill" because I am happy with where we are at considering our history. (ie. I DON'T think we are a treadmill)

Didn't mis-read your post - I was agreeing with you and calling out the perma pessimistic fans that comprise this forum. Let's stay on this 'treadmill' as long as possible!

[Gold Dragon]

A few weeks ago, team negative would have dominated this thread with and-1s. Masai has muzzled them for the time being with these trades but they will be back at the first loss or derozan poor shooting night. I'm looking forward to more silence from them to make this place more enjoyable to read.

[Johnny Bball]

If you shed salary, you're becoming worse. Since you aren't good enough now how are you going to get better losing a piece? And yes the tax does go up each year....but after we re-sign Lowry, PP and Ibaka this off-season? It's Powell and Bebe the next. It's not like this season is the last year we have to re-sign guys.

You honestly put so little though into this, I don't know why I respond. If Delon Wright proves he can play we can shed Joseph, Or Poelt in the next couple years, JV, etc.

But conviently you ignore the real meat of my post which was both of you didn't understand the tax concept or have any of it right, or that MLSE has committed the money to the team, and you harp on the lesser of all points. I've said all I need to here.

My point exactly lmao you are planning to dump players on the team for current players that are on the team lol Great formula to get better.

Nah, treadmill

yeah players never improve. they stay the same as they were in college and nothing changes. and we didn't just trade to fix two of our biggest weaknesses. did your parents drop you on your head?

[Reg00]

Tier 2 Treadmill team.

That's a good space to be in. Plus there is youth in there as well.

[LonZoBallin]

You honestly put so little though into this, I don't know why I respond. If Delon Wright proves he can play we can shed Joseph, Or Poelt in the next couple years, JV, etc.

But conviently you ignore the real meat of my post which was both of you didn't understand the tax concept or have any of it right, or that MLSE has committed the money to the team, and you harp on the lesser of all points. I've said all I need to here.

My point exactly lmao you are planning to dump players on the team for current players that are on the team lol Great formula to get better.

Nah, treadmill

yeah players never improve. they stay the same as they were in college and nothing changes. and we didn't just trade to fix two of our biggest weaknesses. did your parents drop you on your head?

Woah! You have big hopes for Dwright and poeltl lol they're role players and will never put you over the top.

And lowry and DD are going to get better? lmao ibaka has been on the decline for years but he's getting better? JV has been the same his whole career but he's getting better? lmao just stop

Dude you are delusional and the real one that needs help


Treadmill

[Lukeem]

I love how it was a complete BS phrasing of poll question using bias and trying to get a particular answer but it still got spanked

I'll never vote when the phrasing is so weak

I'm not okay being a tier below, I am okay with Masai making these moves to attempt to win. The favourites usually win but sometimes somebody else sneaks in an wins... we are right there making an effort at that.

I wouldn't be okay with a GM being this close and not even bother trying because we don't have lebron and can't be the favourites to win it all. That mentality doesn't belong in professional sports, could you image a league with 90% of the teams constantly tanking

[Double Helix]

I wouldn't be okay with a GM being this close and not even bother trying because we don't have lebron and can't be the favourites to win it all. That mentality doesn't belong in professional sports, could you image a league with 90% of the teams constantly tanking

Imagine it? Some here dream of it. A random simulation of rosters based entirely on pre-NBA statistics picks which two teams will be the only ones worthy to play in the best of 7. The only best of 7 that will occur over the course of the entire year. Those two teams are removed from the tank league entirely and practice for their eventual matchup with each other for months.

The other 28 teams all then have a competition to see who can be the absolute worst of the lot and the games are played to Benny Hill music while a roster of ex celebrities and comic relief characters take the court, kicking the ball out of bounds occasionally, dropping banana peels and pretending to fart on the ball for good luck at the free throw line before deliberately air balling it.

Meanwhile the real TV focus shifts to the prospects but in this league the draft age lowers from 19 to age 9. Reality TV crews actually start to follow the kids in the lead up to age 9 draft eligibility while they are in kindergarten. One controversial show titled "Lil baller babies" follows tall parents through their pregnancy with each season culminating on the birth of the child and his measurements. Scouts analyze how the children deal with art class, handle their first bullies, nose bleeds and learn their first basketball moves. Geneticists reveal probability scores on their likelihood to reach certain heights during adulthood based on their parents and siblings. These video clips are narrated by scouts. Big boards for the 5 year olds are updated daily because everyone has ADD and requires big board updates constantly. Trey Dawkins tied his shoes today but also started dribbling with his left hand. He's moving up a slot. Somebody who went undrafted past age 9 hit an unexpected growth spurt at age 13 and is now the talk of the league and putting up massive numbers in middle school.

While this is happening the comedy of the on-court product for the tank teams reaches new lows when Sam Hinkie removes juvenile comedy from his team entirely and instructs his team to score on their own basket at the beginning of every game and then promptly forfeit the game.

The two top teams engage in boxing and UFC-like promotions throughout the year. Showing how hard they're practicing and talking up how badly they're going to destroy the other team.

[Boogie!]

the issue i have with the team is that the potential is capped out. idk what the arbitrary definition of a treadmill team is, but we're good enough to be a playoff team for years to come if we stick with this core. the issue that i have is that as a team your goal is constantly to get better. we've limited ourselves in that regard by committing to derozan long term. if derozan is a primary fixture on your team, theres no way you can compete for a championship unless hes surrounded by 2 other superstar level talents... the conundrum with that situation is that derozan is getting paid like a superstar and therefore its hard to also get other superstars to play next to him because of the cap issues... also, his role would have to change next to those superstars, and his skillset is only really suited to being a high usage scorer, which means its questionable how he fits next to other ball dominant, high usage stars. i want us to be good but i also want to know that the team is committed to taking that next step to becoming a perennial contender... but as smart a guy as masai is, it seems that he doesnt see how flawed building a team around demar is and doesnt accept that we cant ever be a perennial contender with him as the main guy, getting paid one of the highest salaries.

lowry is the key piece here and as long as we keep him around, and as long as he still keeps his same level of production, we'll always be competitive. imo, the only way to take the next step is to realize the limitation we have in demar and capitalize on his value. it doesnt necessarily mean we will be a championship contender if we get rid of him either, but the point is we'll still be competitive and be a playoff team anyway, and theres a chance we could get better. where as if we stick with him for the long haul, we're basically setting a ceiling for ourselves as a team.

[GreatWhiteStiff]

I think we got outscored by 100 pts in the playoffs last year, maybe it was like 75. We traded a first round pick and 2 2nd rounders for players who don't really push us into contender status (one of which is probably worse than Ross). I think it can be argued we're a treadmill team, though still easily in the top 10 in the nba, with some decent prospects perhaps for the future.

[PerfectJab]

I think your definition of a treadmill team is skewed. I view it as a team that is mediocre, hovers around the 500 mark, that loses in the first round every season.

It's a little too soon to call this a treadmill team. They just made it to the ECF last year and despite the recent struggles are a competitive team.

Not every team is going to be of championship caliber. I'd rather the team be competitive than tanking every year with the hope that one day they'll get it right.

I really feel this team is a piece away from contending for a championship.