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What will it take for Ballmer to admit that the GM/Coach Doc experiment has failed?

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Re: What will it take for Ballmer to admit that the GM/Coach Doc experiment has failed? 

Post#41 » by QRich3 » Thu Mar 2, 2017 6:05 pm

Clemenza wrote:
QRich3 wrote:So who's this best coach in the business that the Clippers can hire if they fire Doc then? does he have a name or is he just some imaginary fairy tale?

Need a real GM in place first then get a young up and coming coach. The assistant who's up next in league circles. A X & O's guy that develops youngsters and has no loyalty to players. It doesn't have to be a big name brand coach all the time. This **** right now is spiraling out of control. Doc seems to be in over his head

Yeah, this is the correct answer, that's why I asked about this "best coach in the business" nonsense. There's no coach in the market that's realistically gonna give a better immediate performance right now than Doc is doing at the moment, no matter how many thoughtless hot takes people say about him in their frustration.

I'm not opposed to moving on from him, I haven't been for a while, but if you do that, you need to go for a young coach who has room to grow, and you have to live with him making rookie mistakes and not having the same strategic advantage in playoff series that Doc offers currently.

Someone like Tibbetts from Portland, Jensen from Utah or Udoka from San Antonio would make sense if you go for an assistant coach. Maybe even Silas from the Hornets, since he got all that hype last summer with the Warriors trying to get him.
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Re: What will it take for Ballmer to admit that the GM/Coach Doc experiment has failed? 

Post#42 » by nickhx2 » Thu Mar 2, 2017 6:10 pm

ime udoka is coaching? i did not know that
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Re: What will it take for Ballmer to admit that the GM/Coach Doc experiment has failed? 

Post#43 » by Wammy Giveaway » Thu Mar 2, 2017 6:18 pm

MartinToVaught wrote:At this point, it's beyond obvious to everyone except Ballmer that he needs to go.


Ballmer may not have the heart to do it for this one little reason: the Donald Sterling scandal. When it broke, everybody in the franchise felt miserable and ashamed, guilty by association. Who helped the players and employees get through all this: Doc Rivers. They owe him so much for uplifting their hearts, they're not gonna let him go.

Once again, love gets in the way of business. Based on my reading of "The Curse" by Mick Minas, this has been their Achilles heel since day one, even during their Buffalo days.
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Re: What will it take for Ballmer to admit that the GM/Coach Doc experiment has failed? 

Post#44 » by QRich3 » Thu Mar 2, 2017 6:20 pm

Not only is he coaching, he's been Pop's assistant for 5 years, and Pop's top assistant since Brown and Budenholzer left for Philly and Atlanta in 2013. They've had Messina for a couple of years now, but Udoka is still listed as the top assistant. Who woulda thought from his playing days, he always was a bruiser with an unimpressive IQ to me
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Re: What will it take for Ballmer to admit that the GM/Coach Doc experiment has failed? 

Post#45 » by nickhx2 » Thu Mar 2, 2017 6:25 pm

btw basically yeah i agree with above post. who out there is actually better right now? you're not gonna find anyone. if you want someone who CAN be better you start next season with a young coach who will grow with the team, the way gs did with kerr and boston did with stevens.

for the moment you just gotta press on ahead, make due with what can still be a very good basketball team, and make sure cp3/blake/jj are re-signed.
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Re: What will it take for Ballmer to admit that the GM/Coach Doc experiment has failed? 

Post#46 » by Clemenza » Thu Mar 2, 2017 7:39 pm

QRich3 wrote:
Clemenza wrote:
QRich3 wrote:So who's this best coach in the business that the Clippers can hire if they fire Doc then? does he have a name or is he just some imaginary fairy tale?

Need a real GM in place first then get a young up and coming coach. The assistant who's up next in league circles. A X & O's guy that develops youngsters and has no loyalty to players. It doesn't have to be a big name brand coach all the time. This **** right now is spiraling out of control. Doc seems to be in over his head

Yeah, this is the correct answer, that's why I asked about this "best coach in the business" nonsense. There's no coach in the market that's realistically gonna give a better immediate performance right now than Doc is doing at the moment, no matter how many thoughtless hot takes people say about him in their frustration.

I'm not opposed to moving on from him, I haven't been for a while, but if you do that, you need to go for a young coach who has room to grow, and you have to live with him making rookie mistakes and not having the same strategic advantage in playoff series that Doc offers currently.

Someone like Tibbetts from Portland, Jensen from Utah or Udoka from San Antonio would make sense if you go for an assistant coach. Maybe even Silas from the Hornets, since he got all that hype last summer with the Warriors trying to get him.


Put down the Doc flavored kool-aid my friend. What has Doc done for us that Vinny The Black didn't do during his tenure as head coach? What "strategic advantage" has Doc given us in the postseason.. seriously? No hyperbole, I just don't see it. Last time I checked we still haven't made it past the 2nd round in the playoffs. Forget the GM part, coaching wise: The small ball fiasco last season, giving Austin free reign to play through mistakes but other players not given this luxury, Jamal Crawford sabotaging the offense, playing Josh Smith at center, playing Pierce too many minutes, not developing younger talent other than Austin, etc etc etc.. Forget his name brand for a second. All bull aside, what has Doc done for this franchise?
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Re: What will it take for Ballmer to admit that the GM/Coach Doc experiment has failed? 

Post#47 » by MartinToVaught » Thu Mar 2, 2017 8:43 pm

The idea that Doc gives us a "strategic advantage" in the playoffs is laughable. If that were the case, we'd be able to win a series in less than seven games and we wouldn't choke every time we race out to a series lead. Doc has been outcoached by the likes of Mike Woodson, Mike Brown, VDN, Scott Brooks, Kevin McHale and Mark Jackson over the years, despite having the overall talent advantage (which has led to his teams winning some of those series anyway in spite of his "coaching"). Doc clings to terrible ideas and refuses to make adjustments, so the other team is never out of a series against us. Seriously, where is the evidence of this "strategic advantage"? Because to me, it sounds a lot like the "decided schematic advantage" that Charlie Weis promised when Notre Dame hired him. In other words, a load of hot air.
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Re: What will it take for Ballmer to admit that the GM/Coach Doc experiment has failed? 

Post#48 » by Wammy Giveaway » Thu Mar 2, 2017 11:34 pm

Clemenza wrote:All bull aside, what has Doc done for this franchise?


One thing and one thing only: guiding the Clippers through the Donald Sterling scandal. That was all it took for Steve Ballmer to promote him.
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Re: What will it take for Ballmer to admit that the GM/Coach Doc experiment has failed? 

Post#49 » by nickhx2 » Thu Mar 2, 2017 11:42 pm

stop making things up
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Re: What will it take for Ballmer to admit that the GM/Coach Doc experiment has failed? 

Post#50 » by QRich3 » Thu Mar 2, 2017 11:50 pm

lol you guys are funny, I'm not sure how I keep getting myself in these conversations. If all you can pay attention to is rotations and who ended up winning the series no wonder you think anyone can do better, Vinny included. Then when somebody comes and does worse, it's back to moaning again, doesn't matter if you don't understand why it's happening. A strategic advantage is for instance they way he gameplanned last year so a team with Lillard and McCollum ends up with Plumlee as their main playmaker. Or how he pretty much nullified Kawhi two years ago when he was playing crunch time defense by smacking him with a million screens. But I bet you lot didn't pay attention to that, but to his face when talking to the refs and some shot Crawford took at the start of the 4th quarter. I guess we understand strategy in a different way.
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Re: What will it take for Ballmer to admit that the GM/Coach Doc experiment has failed? 

Post#51 » by og15 » Fri Mar 3, 2017 3:13 am

No point firing a coach at this point in time. Let's examine this at the end of the season. QRich gave some good suggestions, I wish people who complain so vehemently on here with their sky is falling type complaining would also be helpful in contributing to good discussion like that. A young coach who can grow with the team such as one of the young assistants from a team like SA, etc is a great idea.

Then front office wise we can also look at who is assisting on a team like Toronto, etc and try and see if there is anyone we an poach from around the league who is currently in an assistant type of role.
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Re: What will it take for Ballmer to admit that the GM/Coach Doc experiment has failed? 

Post#52 » by nickhx2 » Fri Mar 3, 2017 5:17 am

QRich3 wrote:Not only is he coaching, he's been Pop's assistant for 5 years, and Pop's top assistant since Brown and Budenholzer left for Philly and Atlanta in 2013. They've had Messina for a couple of years now, but Udoka is still listed as the top assistant. Who woulda thought from his playing days, he always was a bruiser with an unimpressive IQ to me


have you ever heard of his basketball brawl story?

he's a certified monster


for those who haven't:
http://hoopshype.com/2007/12/09/ime-the-great/
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Re: What will it take for Ballmer to admit that the GM/Coach Doc experiment has failed? 

Post#53 » by TucsonClip » Fri Mar 3, 2017 6:10 am

If Doc is out within the next year, I'll be surprised. This summer is about making a run at Melo and re-signing Blake and CP3.

Next year is do or die for this group IMO, especially if we don't get Melo.

Before Doc, my eyes were set on Dennis Lindsey as GM and Budenholzer as coach. Moving forward without Doc all depends on the vision if the franchise. Which players do we keep and which ones do we trade? Doc won't be making that call, or at least shouldnt.
Plus, why would I want to go to the NBA? Duke players suck in the pros.

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Re: What will it take for Ballmer to admit that the GM/Coach Doc experiment has failed? 

Post#54 » by QRich3 » Fri Mar 3, 2017 10:52 am

nickhx2 wrote:
QRich3 wrote:Not only is he coaching, he's been Pop's assistant for 5 years, and Pop's top assistant since Brown and Budenholzer left for Philly and Atlanta in 2013. They've had Messina for a couple of years now, but Udoka is still listed as the top assistant. Who woulda thought from his playing days, he always was a bruiser with an unimpressive IQ to me


have you ever heard of his basketball brawl story?

he's a certified monster


for those who haven't:
http://hoopshype.com/2007/12/09/ime-the-great/

haha that is an awesome story! now I do want to have him coach this team
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Re: What will it take for Ballmer to admit that the GM/Coach Doc experiment has failed? 

Post#55 » by Captain Ballmer » Fri Mar 3, 2017 8:07 pm

nickhx2 wrote:btw basically yeah i agree with above post. who out there is actually better right now? you're not gonna find anyone. if you want someone who CAN be better you start next season with a young coach who will grow with the team, the way gs did with kerr and boston did with stevens.

for the moment you just gotta press on ahead, make due with what can still be a very good basketball team, and make sure cp3/blake/jj are re-signed.


How about Monty Williams for this summer? I thought he did a decent job in New Orleans especially helping that team in 2015 for that single playoff season.
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Re: What will it take for Ballmer to admit that the GM/Coach Doc experiment has failed? 

Post#56 » by MartinToVaught » Fri Mar 3, 2017 9:07 pm

DieHardFan wrote:How about Monty Williams for this summer? I thought he did a decent job in New Orleans especially helping that team in 2015 for that single playoff season.

I'll pass. I remember what Pels fans were saying about him when he was there - how he didn't make adjustments, how dependent he was on his assistants, how bad his rotations were, how he played favorites with washed-up veterans - and I can't imagine he'd be an upgrade over Doc.

Actual quote from Jeff Withey, who played for Monty in New Orleans early on in his career, during his first year with Utah:

"The coaches here are amazing," he told Basketball Insiders. "They give you a lot of confidence."

The contrast was stark to his previous home.

"In New Orleans, it was a tough place for me, just because the coach [Monty Williams], he didn't really give me a shot, you know what I mean? Even if I was playing, if I screwed up one time or anything like that, he would just take me right out. Here, Coach [Snyder], he'll come to you… it's just a different type of coaching. More player-friendly, for sure."


http://www.basketballinsiders.com/jeff-withey-forgotten-man-flourishing/

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Re: What will it take for Ballmer to admit that the GM/Coach Doc experiment has failed? 

Post#57 » by Clemenza » Sat Mar 4, 2017 6:30 pm

QRich3 wrote:lol you guys are funny, I'm not sure how I keep getting myself in these conversations. If all you can pay attention to is rotations and who ended up winning the series no wonder you think anyone can do better, Vinny included. Then when somebody comes and does worse, it's back to moaning again, doesn't matter if you don't understand why it's happening. A strategic advantage is for instance they way he gameplanned last year so a team with Lillard and McCollum ends up with Plumlee as their main playmaker. Or how he pretty much nullified Kawhi two years ago when he was playing crunch time defense by smacking him with a million screens. But I bet you lot didn't pay attention to that, but to his face when talking to the refs and some shot Crawford took at the start of the 4th quarter. I guess we understand strategy in a different way.

So basically Doc game-planed for Kawhi, Lillard, and McCollum- the best players on Spurs and Blazers. What coach doesn't do this? That's not a 'strategic advantage'.
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Re: What will it take for Ballmer to admit that the GM/Coach Doc experiment has failed? 

Post#58 » by MartinToVaught » Sat Mar 4, 2017 7:03 pm

Plus, even if Doc's initial gameplans are good, he has no response when other coaches make adjustments. Just look at the Rockets game the other night. Doc went in planning to have Luc guard Harden - the blatantly obvious move that any coach would make with our personnel. But then he proceeded to watch and do nothing as DJ got switched on to Harden all game long. This is the second highest paid coach in the league, and he had no idea what to do when the Rockets started running basic high HORNS sets. He knows (or at least he should know) that Harden is one of the best in the league at orchestrating the PNR, but he still had no answer for it. What kind of "strategic advantage" doesn't include simple adjustments and counter-adjustments?

And that's just on the micro level. On the macro level, Doc hops on the latest fads without fully understanding them. He sees teams like the Rockets, Cavs and Warriors raining threes at a historic rate, so he makes our current roster rush up lots of jumpers instead of playing to the strengths of our personnel. He sees teams around the league going small at the 4 and the 5, so he trots out midgets at the 2 and the 3. Then he wonders why it's not working, because he hears that small-ball is the wave of the future and thinks that means he can get away with going small anywhere on the court. But instead of learning from his mistakes and adjusting his approach to roster construction and personnel usage accordingly, he just keeps quadrupling down on the same failed strategies. Again, not seeing the advantage here.

On the rare occasion that Doc flukes into a strategy that somewhat works, it's always ripped off from a superior coach. For instance, Pop invented the gimmick of conceding offensive rebounds to get back on D more quickly. Doc took all the credit for it. Jimmy Patsos (the Loyola coach at the time) invented the strategy of aggressively doubling and even tripling Curry all game when he was still in college. Doc took all the credit for it. A coach who gives their team a strategic advantage would be inventing these kinds of strategies, not just following the trends.

The only things Doc is good at are making excuses and deflecting all blame off of himself. And it looks like he still has some people fooled. There are still people who think he's some brilliant coach because the Big Three dragged him to a ring almost a decade ago.
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Re: What will it take for Ballmer to admit that the GM/Coach Doc experiment has failed? 

Post#59 » by og15 » Mon Mar 6, 2017 1:19 am

MartinToVaught wrote:Plus, even if Doc's initial gameplans are good, he has no response when other coaches make adjustments. Just look at the Rockets game the other night. Doc went in planning to have Luc guard Harden - the blatantly obvious move that any coach would make with our personnel. But then he proceeded to watch and do nothing as DJ got switched on to Harden all game long. This is the second highest paid coach in the league, and he had no idea what to do when the Rockets started running basic high HORNS sets. He knows (or at least he should know) that Harden is one of the best in the league at orchestrating the PNR, but he still had no answer for it. What kind of "strategic advantage" doesn't include simple adjustments and counter-adjustments?

Good points, but I don't think this is in any way a Doc problem, this is kind of an every coach problem, it just depends to what degree. For example, the same thing you just mentioned Doc doing in one game was exactly what Pop did for the whole series in 14-15. Clippers ran high horns to get Kawhi off Paul, and it consistently opened up mismatches with Paul going against their bigs or even Blake on a small, and it killed them. Pop never adjusted the whole series. The 10-11 Lakers lost two games they had no business losing to the Hornets who lost David West just before the playoffs. Paul abused them on the pick and roll, they kept giving up switches and allowing him to isolate against Pau and/or Bynum. Phil didn't adjust all series, but they won due to just the large talent disparity. Series shouldn't have gone to more than 4-5 games as they were playing a team with Carl Landry as their second option.

On that point though, there's a situation here where coaches are essentially in a lose/lose situation when it comes to adjustments. If they stick with their game plan which seemed to be failing (at least short term), if that same game plan ends up working because the opposing team isn't making every shot anymore, fans might say "well he just got lucky, he should have adjusted". If they lose, then of course "what an idiot, he should have adjusted". I agree with coaches having to make adjustments, but I find it interesting how arrogant we can be as fans that if the coach had just done the adjustment we thought was correct, the team would certainly have won. Half the time people don't even notice the minor adjustments that are made, and then we tend to ignore when the adjustment we called for is done, and it totally fails and just find another thing to attack (rotations or something).

If the coach changes the game plan and they win, the coach might get credit, good adjustment. If the coach changes the game plan and they lose, then the response is "what an idiot, why would you divert from your game plan just because it wasn't working for a stretch, you should stick to it because the game plan is for the "big picture" large sample size, not for the small sample". Coaching ability and adjustments tend to get judged based on the final outcome not on any objective basis of whether or not it was the right adjustment or decision.

And that's just on the micro level. On the macro level, Doc hops on the latest fads without fully understanding them. He sees teams like the Rockets, Cavs and Warriors raining threes at a historic rate, so he makes our current roster rush up lots of jumpers instead of playing to the strengths of our personnel. He sees teams around the league going small at the 4 and the 5, so he trots out midgets at the 2 and the 3. Then he wonders why it's not working, because he hears that small-ball is the wave of the future and thinks that means he can get away with going small anywhere on the court. But instead of learning from his mistakes and adjusting his approach to roster construction and personnel usage accordingly, he just keeps quadrupling down on the same failed strategies. Again, not seeing the advantage here.
In reality the whole league is a copycat league, and it's not necessarily a bad thing. If something is working, copy it, but it can be a problem when you don't have anything close to the right personnel to accomplish that thing effectively. I think it is a bit arrogant of us to suggest that Doc doesn't fully understand the "latest fads". The problem with this is that a coaching staff is not one person, and for us to suggest that the whole coaching staff along with Doc is just so dumb and can't grasp all the latest fads like we are able to, well...

Doc understands the latest fads, Doc knows what he lacks in terms of personnel, the problem is that first it is never as easy as it seems to acquire the personnel you ideally need, and Doc has had some overconfidence issues in terms of how capable he thinks he is of "coaching up" players. This has led to him wasting the minimal assets he's had by acquiring the wrong players. When your major supporting contributors on a yearly basis are minimum players, you're unlikely to get the ideal pieces.

I don't really mind the copying, nobne of us should, but of course don't copy poorly. Outside of that though, the issue I've seen is that Doc has built rosters with players who require minutes that essentially force the team to play certain lineups. When you have both Rivers and Crawford, you create the problem of having two SG's, neither of which is a proper PG, and neither of which is a proper SF. So you either play one out of position at PG and have issues there, or play one out of position at SF, and have issues there.

On the rare occasion that Doc flukes into a strategy that somewhat works, it's always ripped off from a superior coach. For instance, Pop invented the gimmick of conceding offensive rebounds to get back on D more quickly. Doc took all the credit for it. Jimmy Patsos (the Loyola coach at the time) invented the strategy of aggressively doubling and even tripling Curry all game when he was still in college. Doc took all the credit for it. A coach who gives their team a strategic advantage would be inventing these kinds of strategies, not just following the trends.
Taking from other coaches is not a bad thing either. The willingness to learn from the experiences of others is actually a good coaching trait. Basically all the great coaches in the league will say that part of how they got great is their willingness to learn from other coaches. Doc was not the only coach to follow in Pop's footsteps . All the Pop disciples did, but we also had Carlisle, a coach many highly regard who copied that. SVG, Clifford, Spoelstra and Stotts. Can you be a strong offensive rebounding team and a strong transition defense? Sure, but the Clippers had not shown themselves to be capable of that. I have felt that they should go back to attempting to be a strong offensive rebounding team though, just as a counter to the league trend, but if they don't defend transition they will burn themselves.

The only things Doc is good at are making excuses and deflecting all blame off of himself. And it looks like he still has some people fooled. There are still people who think he's some brilliant coach because the Big Three dragged him to a ring almost a decade ago.

Doc's actual ability is in the middle of being a brilliant coach (which I'm not really sure I hear / read anyone saying), and being this terrible idiot of a coach who has no original thought of his own, somehow doesn't understand basketball even as much as the average RealGM Clippers fan, and doesn't know what a proper rotation or adjustment is. Of course maybe we just love a lot of hyperbole, who knows.
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Re: What will it take for Ballmer to admit that the GM/Coach Doc experiment has failed? 

Post#60 » by QRich3 » Mon Mar 6, 2017 9:25 am

Clemenza wrote:So basically Doc game-planed for Kawhi, Lillard, and McCollum- the best players on Spurs and Blazers. What coach doesn't do this? That's not a 'strategic advantage'.

I mean, if you can't see the difference between the way he planned and the way, for instance, Warriors coaching staff did a series later, and how it is an advantage, I'm not sure I should spend any more energy debating this. I certainly don't have as much patience as og does to write a bunch of paragraphs in detail for someone that doesn't even wanna try to challenge their own rash judgement. I'm sure you'll just go look the Warriors won and the Clippers didn't so it must be the coach right?

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