It's Time: Grade the Trade

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Grade the deal

A
23
66%
B
12
34%
C
0
No votes
D
0
No votes
F
0
No votes
Inc
0
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Total votes: 35

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Re: It's Time: Grade the Trade 

Post#21 » by lambchop » Wed Mar 1, 2017 1:08 pm

Great move for the thunder
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Re: It's Time: Grade the Trade 

Post#22 » by NuggetsWY » Fri Mar 3, 2017 7:41 pm

It sure seems like a great trade for OKC. You've added a couple of players that will fit right in alongside your starters. Then again, your GM has a knack for finding some good pieces IMO. Gibson a solid, known player and Mr. McBuckets is a decent shooting, great scoring player who plays defense with his head.

On the other hand, Chicago might have been making the trade to open some PT for a couple guys place grabbing some young pieces that they like. I think they did ok, but my nod goes to OK on this one.
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Re: It's Time: Grade the Trade 

Post#23 » by dice » Mon Mar 6, 2017 2:59 am

NuggetsWY wrote:It sure seems like a great trade for OKC. You've added a couple of players that will fit right in alongside your starters. Then again, your GM has a knack for finding some good pieces IMO. Gibson a solid, known player and Mr. McBuckets is a decent shooting, great scoring player who plays defense with his head

that may be. he sure doesn't play it with any other part of his body
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Re: It's Time: Grade the Trade 

Post#24 » by Pillendreher » Mon Mar 6, 2017 9:27 am

DMD has already turned into Kyle Singler.
"I don't know of any player that, when the shot goes up, he doesn't want it to go in," Donovan said
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Re: It's Time: Grade the Trade 

Post#25 » by NaturalThunder » Mon Mar 6, 2017 2:25 pm

Pillendreher wrote:DMD has already turned into Kyle Singler.

Yep. Right now we're wasting five roster spots on the following:

- Two Kyle Singlers

- Two awful backup PGs

- And a washed up, non-contributory veteran.


Now, before someone blasts me, I have no problem giving Nick a roster spot. He's earned it and he will forever be beloved by OKC fans. But him having a roster spot only magnifies how we've got so many useless, borderline NBA players at best, using up roster spots.
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Re: It's Time: Grade the Trade 

Post#26 » by spearsy23 » Tue Mar 7, 2017 4:57 am

Can we talk about how bad Taj has been too? In 3 fewer mpg he's averaging 3.5 fewer points, 3 fewer rebounds, and shooting 8% worse than with the bulls. -5.3 BPM.
“If you're getting stops and you're making threes and the other team's not scoring, that's when you're going to see a huge point difference there,” coach Billy Donovan said.
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Re: It's Time: Grade the Trade 

Post#27 » by bondom34 » Tue Mar 7, 2017 5:03 am

spearsy23 wrote:Can we talk about how bad Taj has been too? In 3 fewer mpg he's averaging 3.5 fewer points, 3 fewer rebounds, and shooting 8% worse than with the bulls. -5.3 BPM.

He's shooting more midrange shots, where he's not good, and its probably not helping his rebounding being out there. TBH I'm more pissed McD gets 35 mpg while Taj sits and doesn't start.
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Re: It's Time: Grade the Trade 

Post#28 » by spearsy23 » Tue Mar 7, 2017 5:13 am

bondom34 wrote:
spearsy23 wrote:Can we talk about how bad Taj has been too? In 3 fewer mpg he's averaging 3.5 fewer points, 3 fewer rebounds, and shooting 8% worse than with the bulls. -5.3 BPM.

He's shooting more midrange shots, where he's not good, and its probably not helping his rebounding being out there. TBH I'm more pissed McD gets 35 mpg while Taj sits and doesn't start.

I mean it's just becoming more and more clear that we don't put players in positions to succeed. Every player we've acquired from another team in the last couple of years has gone to **** playing for us except Kanter. Augustin, Singler, Grant, Foye, dion, Mcdermott, Taj, even oladipo has regressed. Granted half of them were crap players in their old teams too, but they all at least filled legitimate NBA roles.
“If you're getting stops and you're making threes and the other team's not scoring, that's when you're going to see a huge point difference there,” coach Billy Donovan said.
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Re: It's Time: Grade the Trade 

Post#29 » by bondom34 » Tue Mar 7, 2017 5:16 am

spearsy23 wrote:
bondom34 wrote:
spearsy23 wrote:Can we talk about how bad Taj has been too? In 3 fewer mpg he's averaging 3.5 fewer points, 3 fewer rebounds, and shooting 8% worse than with the bulls. -5.3 BPM.

He's shooting more midrange shots, where he's not good, and its probably not helping his rebounding being out there. TBH I'm more pissed McD gets 35 mpg while Taj sits and doesn't start.

I mean it's just becoming more and more clear that we don't put players in positions to succeed. Every player we've acquired from another team in the last couple of years has gone to **** playing for us except Kanter. Augustin, Singler, Grant, Foye, dion, Mcdermott, Taj, even oladipo has regressed. Granted half of them were crap players in their old teams too, but they all at least filled legitimate NBA roles.

Kanter to me has improved. Agree on the rest though. Sorry, coach still is bad.
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Re: It's Time: Grade the Trade 

Post#30 » by oken » Tue Mar 7, 2017 6:57 am

spearsy23 wrote:Can we talk about how bad Taj has been too? In 3 fewer mpg he's averaging 3.5 fewer points, 3 fewer rebounds, and shooting 8% worse than with the bulls. -5.3 BPM.

I think Presti would offer Taj a 5 year offer in the summer just like he did to Singler when he recorded significantly lower percentages after being traded from Detroit. He thinks it's a sign of good things to come.
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Re: It's Time: Grade the Trade 

Post#31 » by Pillendreher » Tue Mar 7, 2017 9:25 am

spearsy23 wrote:
bondom34 wrote:
spearsy23 wrote:Can we talk about how bad Taj has been too? In 3 fewer mpg he's averaging 3.5 fewer points, 3 fewer rebounds, and shooting 8% worse than with the bulls. -5.3 BPM.

He's shooting more midrange shots, where he's not good, and its probably not helping his rebounding being out there. TBH I'm more pissed McD gets 35 mpg while Taj sits and doesn't start.

I mean it's just becoming more and more clear that we don't put players in positions to succeed. Every player we've acquired from another team in the last couple of years has gone to **** playing for us except Kanter. Augustin, Singler, Grant, Foye, dion, Mcdermott, Taj, even oladipo has regressed. Granted half of them were crap players in their old teams too, but they all at least filled legitimate NBA roles.


At this point it's safe to assume it has be Billy (at least to some extent), right?
"I don't know of any player that, when the shot goes up, he doesn't want it to go in," Donovan said
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Re: It's Time: Grade the Trade 

Post#32 » by spearsy23 » Tue Mar 7, 2017 9:58 am

Pillendreher wrote:
spearsy23 wrote:
bondom34 wrote:He's shooting more midrange shots, where he's not good, and its probably not helping his rebounding being out there. TBH I'm more pissed McD gets 35 mpg while Taj sits and doesn't start.

I mean it's just becoming more and more clear that we don't put players in positions to succeed. Every player we've acquired from another team in the last couple of years has gone to **** playing for us except Kanter. Augustin, Singler, Grant, Foye, dion, Mcdermott, Taj, even oladipo has regressed. Granted half of them were crap players in their old teams too, but they all at least filled legitimate NBA roles.


At this point it's safe to assume it has be Billy (at least to some extent), right?

Can't ask me that, I've hated Billy since he was hired :lol: I think there was one stretch last year around training camp where I was buying into the crap he was selling.

Imo our overall problems are Billy to a large extent because I think his schemes are ineffective and/or outdated. I've always believed that defense starts with protecting the paint, even as the NBA moves to 3 point shooting the most effective way to generate a three is by driving and kicking. We're next to last in the league in points allowed in the paint, that shows that even If teams weren't shooting a good percentage they're getting into the paint at a high rate, and we're 5th best n transition points allowed so that means they're getting into the paint in the half court.

Offensively there just isn't a scheme at all. It's Russ dive into the paint or Kanter post up. Russ dive into the paint is very effective but having a superstar be effective isn't exactly great coaching. That said, there are clearly some major constraints he's working with, but he continues parking Robes at the three point line where he's least effective instead of moving him around the court and utilizing him as a screener and cutter (same with Grant, who never catches the ball less than twenty feet from the basket even though he trips every time he moves his feet). Domas has become practically worthless, part of that is just hitting the rookie wall, but when's the last time we actually ran action with the intent of getting him a good shot? I don't even remember any pick and rolls with him in the last month. Really you can go down the roster and the only guys I wouldn't complain about how they're being used are Russ, Steven, and Alex. I think he's married to what worked in college even though we don't have the personnel to make it work.
“If you're getting stops and you're making threes and the other team's not scoring, that's when you're going to see a huge point difference there,” coach Billy Donovan said.
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Re: It's Time: Grade the Trade 

Post#33 » by Pillendreher » Tue Mar 7, 2017 10:52 am

spearsy23 wrote:Imo our overall problems are Billy to a large extent because I think his schemes are ineffective and/or outdated. I've always believed that defense starts with protecting the paint, even as the NBA moves to 3 point shooting the most effective way to generate a three is by driving and kicking. We're next to last in the league in points allowed in the paint, that shows that even If teams weren't shooting a good percentage they're getting into the paint at a high rate, and we're 5th best n transition points allowed so that means they're getting into the paint in the half court.


Per stats.nba.com:

oppFGA in the paint: 2nd most
oppFG% in the paint: 8th best
oppFGM in the paint: 4th most

oppFGA in the restricted area (non-paint): 9th most
oppFG% in the restricted area (non-paint): 21st best
oppFGM in the restricted area (non-paint): 5th most

oppFGA from midrange: 24th most
oppFG% from midrange: 6th best
oppFGM from midrange: 25th most

oppFGA from 3: 26th most
oppFG% from 3: 11th best
oppFGM from 3: 27th most

oppFGA from 3 (corner): 22nd most
oppFG% from 3 (corner): 14th best
oppFGM from 3 (corner): 22nd most


So yeah. Seems like we actively funnel things to the paint. Having close to none shot-blocking on this team (the only guys blocking shots are Adams, Grant and Robes) and Adams struggling with rim protection (even though he had the 20th best DFG% among guys with at least 400 DFGA (48.8 %), he's 26th among guys with at least 300 DFGA (52.6 %) - that's slightly better than Kanter, who's at 53 % in both seasons; Domas is at 47.4 % on 230 DFGA). Adams not progressing defensively (DBPM 1.3: Same as last year; went from 12th in DRPM among Centers to 24th) hasn't exactly helped this season.

Funneling to the paint might be something we do because our wings apart from Robes aren't all that good at containing dribble penetration most of the time.


spearsy23 wrote:Offensively there just isn't a scheme at all. It's Russ dive into the paint or Kanter post up. Russ dive into the paint is very effective but having a superstar be effective isn't exactly great coaching. That said, there are clearly some major constraints he's working with, but he continues parking Robes at the three point line where he's least effective instead of moving him around the court and utilizing him as a screener and cutter (same with Grant, who never catches the ball less than twenty feet from the basket even though he trips every time he moves his feet). Domas has become practically worthless, part of that is just hitting the rookie wall, but when's the last time we actually ran action with the intent of getting him a good shot? I don't even remember any pick and rolls with him in the last month. Really you can go down the roster and the only guys I wouldn't complain about how they're being used are Russ, Steven, and Alex. I think he's married to what worked in college even though we don't have the personnel to make it work.


Our offense has become more simplistic month after month. We don't even run the Pick And Roll anymore. When was the last time you saw Russ really using a screener? Almost everybody slips the screen before he even makes contact with the opposing player. Domas is not even a part of the team in that regard anymore. It's like he's just out there for the sake of it, not because he should be part of the team.
"I don't know of any player that, when the shot goes up, he doesn't want it to go in," Donovan said
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Re: It's Time: Grade the Trade 

Post#34 » by slick_watts » Tue Mar 7, 2017 6:36 pm

cameron payne is better than doug mcdermott. taj gibson will probably leave in the summer. two 2nd round picks are nice, though. C.
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Re: It's Time: Grade the Trade 

Post#35 » by GimmeDat » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:16 am

I'm not sure why Taj is playing worse for you guys, may be just a slow time adjusting - he'd be in Chicago his whole career up to this point. He's a decent mid-range shooter, very good during stretches of the season that he's 'on', but his bread and butter is in the post and as a finisher.

Doug, well, I expect more out of him as well. He's had a trash season but he's shown he can be better than he has been. I'd give both of them some time.

From our end, we're not too encouraged by what we've seen from Payne so far. What elements of his game made you guys like him?
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Re: It's Time: Grade the Trade 

Post#36 » by bondom34 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:50 pm

GimmeDat wrote:I'm not sure why Taj is playing worse for you guys, may be just a slow time adjusting - he'd be in Chicago his whole career up to this point. He's a decent mid-range shooter, very good during stretches of the season that he's 'on', but his bread and butter is in the post and as a finisher.

Doug, well, I expect more out of him as well. He's had a trash season but he's shown he can be better than he has been. I'd give both of them some time.

From our end, we're not too encouraged by what we've seen from Payne so far. What elements of his game made you guys like him?

He's shown games when his shot is on and passing looks really on point. I really think the injury got him way out of rhythm as last season when he played the bench just ran 100 times smoother. It got post all star break when coaches just tend to sit rookies for no great reason and he was benched, then injured. Nobody knows why Randy Foye played, Payne was way better, but he showed enough for me running the offense last year I had pretty high hopes.

Oh and the floater is nice at times as well.
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Re: It's Time: Grade the Trade 

Post#37 » by GimmeDat » Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:17 am

bondom34 wrote:
GimmeDat wrote:I'm not sure why Taj is playing worse for you guys, may be just a slow time adjusting - he'd be in Chicago his whole career up to this point. He's a decent mid-range shooter, very good during stretches of the season that he's 'on', but his bread and butter is in the post and as a finisher.

Doug, well, I expect more out of him as well. He's had a trash season but he's shown he can be better than he has been. I'd give both of them some time.

From our end, we're not too encouraged by what we've seen from Payne so far. What elements of his game made you guys like him?

He's shown games when his shot is on and passing looks really on point. I really think the injury got him way out of rhythm as last season when he played the bench just ran 100 times smoother. It got post all star break when coaches just tend to sit rookies for no great reason and he was benched, then injured. Nobody knows why Randy Foye played, Payne was way better, but he showed enough for me running the offense last year I had pretty high hopes.

Oh and the floater is nice at times as well.


I hope so. I think he'll prove to be a better shooter than his %'s suggest, he was obviously a good shooter in college. It's been tough for him to show much of a 'PG' game because he's been easing in to the team, plus often coupled with Rondo or one of Wade/Butler in his lineups.

I think the main concern a lot of Bulls fan have is his frame and inability to score inside. Seems a bit physically out of his league and has to settle for tough shots.
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Re: It's Time: Grade the Trade 

Post#38 » by bondom34 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:52 am

GimmeDat wrote:
bondom34 wrote:
GimmeDat wrote:I'm not sure why Taj is playing worse for you guys, may be just a slow time adjusting - he'd be in Chicago his whole career up to this point. He's a decent mid-range shooter, very good during stretches of the season that he's 'on', but his bread and butter is in the post and as a finisher.

Doug, well, I expect more out of him as well. He's had a trash season but he's shown he can be better than he has been. I'd give both of them some time.

From our end, we're not too encouraged by what we've seen from Payne so far. What elements of his game made you guys like him?

He's shown games when his shot is on and passing looks really on point. I really think the injury got him way out of rhythm as last season when he played the bench just ran 100 times smoother. It got post all star break when coaches just tend to sit rookies for no great reason and he was benched, then injured. Nobody knows why Randy Foye played, Payne was way better, but he showed enough for me running the offense last year I had pretty high hopes.

Oh and the floater is nice at times as well.


I hope so. I think he'll prove to be a better shooter than his %'s suggest, he was obviously a good shooter in college. It's been tough for him to show much of a 'PG' game because he's been easing in to the team, plus often coupled with Rondo or one of Wade/Butler in his lineups.

I think the main concern a lot of Bulls fan have is his frame and inability to score inside. Seems a bit physically out of his league and has to settle for tough shots.

He is definitely a bit small, though personally I don't worry a ton about getting to the rim so it wasn't something I paid attention to. He is a better shooter than he's shown IMO.
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Re: It's Time: Grade the Trade 

Post#39 » by oken » Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:32 pm

I guess Bulls fans will get angrier each other day:

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Re: It's Time: Grade the Trade 

Post#40 » by oken » Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:39 pm

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