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Political Roundtable Part XIII

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1061 » by sfam » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:30 pm

As a follow-up on Trump's lying about faulty jobs numbers which magically got great when he was in office, we have to ask whether the whole Obamacare is designed to fail in 2017 line of BS is true. My answer - if Trump is saying it, its clearly not true.

According to Trump and the Republicans, like no jobs really being created in Obama's 8 years even though the unemployment is below 5% (what Obama promised, btw), they say the ACA never helped anyone, even though 20 million more have coverage. According to Republicans, those are all fake coverages, similar to the fake jobs.

Krugman addresses this this morning

Facts Are Enemies of the People

The U.S. economy added 10.3 million jobs during President Obama’s second term, or 214,000 a month. This brought the official unemployment rate below 5 percent, and a number of indicators suggested that by late last year we were fairly close to full employment. But Donald Trump insisted that the good news on jobs was “phony,” that America was actually suffering from mass unemployment.

Then came the first employment report of the Trump administration, which at 235,000 jobs added looked very much like a continuation of the previous trend. And the administration claimed credit: Job numbers, Mr. Trump’s press secretary declared, “may have been phony in the past, but it’s very real now.”

Reporters laughed — and should be ashamed of themselves for doing so. For it really wasn’t a joke. America is now governed by a president and party that fundamentally don’t accept the idea that there are objective facts. Instead, they want everyone to accept that reality is whatever they say it is.

So we’re just supposed to believe the president if he says, falsely, that his inauguration crowd was the biggest ever; if he claims, ludicrously, that millions of votes were cast illegally for his opponent; if he insists, with no evidence, that his predecessor tapped his phones.

And it’s not just about serving one man’s vanity. If you want to see how this attitude can hurt millions of people, consider the state of play on health care reform.

Obamacare has led to a sharp decline in the number of Americans without health insurance. You can argue that the decline should have been even sharper, that there may be troubles ahead, or that we should have done better. But the reality of the law’s achievement shouldn’t be in question, and you should worry about the consequences of Trumpcare, which would drastically weaken key provisions.

Republicans, however, are in denial about recent gains. The president of the Heritage Foundation dismisses the positive effects of the Affordable Care Act as “fake news.” In Louisville over the weekend, Vice President Mike Pence declared that “Obamacare has failed the people of Kentucky” — this in a state where the percentage of people without insurance fell from 16.6 to 7 percent when the law went into effect.

And as for the likely impacts of Trumpcare — well, they literally don’t want to know...


Trump's entire approach is to lie. Truth is irrelevant. Seems kind of hard to defend a policy position with this as the backdrop. We will have the exact same debate with every policy discussion for the next 4 years. Nobody will believe a word this guy says, because he's usually lying. The employment figures show he really doesn't care when caught.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1062 » by nate33 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:30 pm

sfam wrote:
Wizardspride wrote:
Read on Twitter

Steve King tells us clearly what the problem is. He means this is OUR country - white people country. Yes, we have some brown skinned people here, but we don't want any more. This somewhat at odds with the notion of America as the melting pot. If you don't have native American indians in your blood, you're an immigrant. The culture that exists here is fueled by assimilating immigrants. It has never been a static culture - it has always been vibrant and changing.


America was not founded as a "melting pot". That is historically inaccurate.

It was settled by mostly Anglos, Celtics and Germans and remained that way (with the obvious exception of African slaves) from the 1600's through 1880. The nation was founded by almost exclusively Anglo, Celtic and German Protestants, its Constitution was written by Anglo, Celtic and German Protestants, it's wars of independence were fought by Anglo, Celtic and German Protestants, the lands to the west were taken and consolidated by Anglo, Celtic and German Protestants. The cultural traditions and government policies were developed by Anglo, Celtic and German Protestants.

The rhetoric that America is a "melting pot" was first disseminated in a widespread publication in the late 1880's and didn't become part of the lexicon until 1908. The rhetoric was pushed in the late 1800's and early 1900's to encourage the wave of "new immigrants" (mostly from southern Europe and Eastern Europe) to have a stake in America.

Things certainly changed in the 20th century with the arrival of Irish and Italian Catholics, Orthodox Slavs, and Jews; and later with the arrival of Hispanic immigrants from the South. It has become a "melting pot" over the last century and it is reasonable to debate the merits and practicality of a "melting pot" nation going forward, but the notion that America has always been a land where vastly different cultures have blended together is simply false.

And the notion that if you're not a native American, you are an "immigrant" is silly. Native Americans may have lived on this particularly piece of geography first, but they didn't have any material role in the formation of the cultural and political entity known as the United States of America.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1063 » by dckingsfan » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:41 pm

sfam wrote:Trump's entire approach is to lie. Truth is irrelevant. Seems kind of hard to defend a policy position with this as the backdrop. We will have the exact same debate with every policy discussion for the next 4 years. Nobody will believe a word this guy says, because he's usually lying. The employment figures show he really doesn't care when caught.

Well... sfam, haven't we gone over this before? It isn't unemployment it is the percentage of workers that are employed in the 25 to 54 range.

And neither Trump nor Obama or previous presidents should get the credit. We have gone over this in the past as well.

If you want to actually look at what stabilized employment, look at the Fed. Sadly though, those quantitative easing policies had a price.

BTW, I am not defending the serial liar that is Trump. It is just hard to care when you have Pelosi and Sanders on the other side lying away (yes, not to the same extent).
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1064 » by sfam » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:42 pm

nate33 wrote:
sfam wrote:
Wizardspride wrote:
Read on Twitter

Steve King tells us clearly what the problem is. He means this is OUR country - white people country. Yes, we have some brown skinned people here, but we don't want any more. This somewhat at odds with the notion of America as the melting pot. If you don't have native American indians in your blood, you're an immigrant. The culture that exists here is fueled by assimilating immigrants. It has never been a static culture - it has always been vibrant and changing.


America was not founded as a "melting pot". That is historically inaccurate.

It was settled by mostly Anglos, Celtics and Germans and remained that way (with the obvious exception of African slaves) from the 1600's through 1880. The nation was founded by almost exclusively Anglo, Celtic and German Protestants, its Constitution was written by Anglo, Celtic and German Protestants, it's wars of independence were fought by Anglo, Celtic and German Protestants, the lands to the west were taken and consolidated by Anglo, Celtic and German Protestants. The cultural traditions and government policies were developed by Anglo, Celtic and German Protestants.

The rhetoric that America is a "melting pot" was first disseminated in a widespread publication in the late 1880's and didn't become part of the lexicon until 1908. The rhetoric was pushed in the late 1800's and early 1900's to encourage the wave of "new immigrants" (mostly from southern Europe and Eastern Europe) to have a stake in America.

Things certainly changed in the 20th century with the arrival of Irish and Italian Catholics and Jews; and later with the arrival of Hispanic immigrants from the South. It has become a "melting pot" over the last century and it is reasonable to debate the merits and practicality of a "melting pot" nation going forward, but the notion that America has always been a land where vastly different cultures have blended together is simply false.

And the notion that if you're not a native American, you are an "immigrant" is silly. Native Americans may have lived on this particularly piece of geography first, but they didn't have any material role in the formation of the cultural and political entity known as the United States of America.

What's really silly is the notion that Anglos, Celtics and Germans have the pre-eminent role in our culture ("with the obvious exception of African slaves"). I would point out that New Mexico was settled by the Spanish as early as the late 1500s. Muslim Americans fought in the Revolutionary War. "East Indian" was a person type in the Jamestown colony. Filipenos established a colony in Louisiana in the 1600s. It is true that those groups were in power, but that is different from saying the others did not exist, a whitewashing of history if you will.

And really, things have changed here since the early 1900s. The US is FAR FAR FAR more characterized as a melting pot than it is the bastion of Anglos, Celtic and German thought. This is a fantasy history, and more to the point, bares little resemblance to the country we see today.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1065 » by sfam » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:43 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
sfam wrote:Trump's entire approach is to lie. Truth is irrelevant. Seems kind of hard to defend a policy position with this as the backdrop. We will have the exact same debate with every policy discussion for the next 4 years. Nobody will believe a word this guy says, because he's usually lying. The employment figures show he really doesn't care when caught.

Well... sfam, haven't we gone over this before? It isn't unemployment it is the percentage of workers that are employed in the 25 to 54 range.

And neither Trump nor Obama or previous presidents should get the credit. We have gone over this in the past as well.

If you want to actually look at what stabilized employment, look at the Fed. Sadly though, those quantitative easing policies had a price.

BTW, I am not defending the serial liar that is Trump. It is just hard to care when you have Pelosi and Sanders on the other side lying away (yes, not to the same extent).

If you have problems with the numbers before this month, they haven't changed. Unless you are the Trump administration. They were faulty before and now are perfect.

There is no equivalence for this. There really isn't.

As for Obama not deserving credit, its really hard to look at this chart and state that. Its almost like stating that Obama handed Trump a mess of a country

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1066 » by dckingsfan » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:50 pm

sfam wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
sfam wrote:Trump's entire approach is to lie. Truth is irrelevant. Seems kind of hard to defend a policy position with this as the backdrop. We will have the exact same debate with every policy discussion for the next 4 years. Nobody will believe a word this guy says, because he's usually lying. The employment figures show he really doesn't care when caught.

Well... sfam, haven't we gone over this before? It isn't unemployment it is the percentage of workers that are employed in the 25 to 54 range.

And neither Trump nor Obama or previous presidents should get the credit. We have gone over this in the past as well.

If you want to actually look at what stabilized employment, look at the Fed. Sadly though, those quantitative easing policies had a price.

BTW, I am not defending the serial liar that is Trump. It is just hard to care when you have Pelosi and Sanders on the other side lying away (yes, not to the same extent).

If you have problems with the numbers before this month, they haven't changed. Unless you are the Trump administration. They were faulty before and now are perfect.

There is no equivalence for this. There really isn't.

As for Obama not deserving credit, its really hard to look at this chart and state that. Its almost like stating that Obama handed Trump a mess of a country

Image

Again, nice chart but who deserves credit?

Again, Trump is a serial liar, I get that - but unemployment is the wrong metric - look at employment rate of 25 to 64.

Come on sfam.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1067 » by sfam » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:04 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
sfam wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:Well... sfam, haven't we gone over this before? It isn't unemployment it is the percentage of workers that are employed in the 25 to 54 range.

And neither Trump nor Obama or previous presidents should get the credit. We have gone over this in the past as well.

If you want to actually look at what stabilized employment, look at the Fed. Sadly though, those quantitative easing policies had a price.

BTW, I am not defending the serial liar that is Trump. It is just hard to care when you have Pelosi and Sanders on the other side lying away (yes, not to the same extent).

If you have problems with the numbers before this month, they haven't changed. Unless you are the Trump administration. They were faulty before and now are perfect.

There is no equivalence for this. There really isn't.

As for Obama not deserving credit, its really hard to look at this chart and state that. Its almost like stating that Obama handed Trump a mess of a country

Image

Again, nice chart but who deserves credit?

Again, Trump is a serial liar, I get that - but unemployment is the wrong metric - look at employment rate of 25 to 64.

Come on sfam.

I think its pretty clear who deserves credit. Both George Bush and then Obama along in close coordination with the Fed took a series of actions at the end of the Bush administration to the beginning of the Obama administration to inject funds in the economy save the car industry and on and on. This is like 8 years back. To say Obama's actions on this had no impact is pretty strange.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1068 » by sfam » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:09 pm

So a guy goes for a chicken shwarma and shockingly, finds a bus boy working there who look like he might be middle eastern in decent. His immediate reaction? Make America Great by protecting a random woman standing there, who clearly is being held hostage, because she was apparently wearing a "hostage shirt". Besides, this is "what arabs do."

This dude looks a heck of a lot scarier than most Muslim Americans I've met.
Image
The disturbance at the Middle Eastern restaurant morphed within minutes from bizarre to a violent, one-sided assault.

Jason Kendall was walking down State Street about 3 p.m. Saturday when he saw a woman standing inside Al Aqsa Restaurant in Salem, Ore., according to Fox affiliate KPTV. The Mediterranean food joint is a few blocks from the state’s Capitol and Willamette University.

Kendall said he thought the woman was being held hostage because “of the type of shirt she was wearing,” the news station reported. He would later tell police that holding women hostage was “what Arabs do.”

So he walked into the restaurant and told the woman that she was “free to leave,” according to KPTV.

Then he started yelling because he saw a “Saddam Hussein-looking guy” inside the restaurant,
according to the Salem Statesman Journal.

“Go back to your country, terrorist,” he told the man. “Get out of America.”

Local media said employees were able to get Kendall to leave, but not for long.

He allegedly returned a few minutes later with a pipe — he told officers that it was his “horn of Gabriel” and that he was walking a “warrior’s path” — and started beating the man who he said looked like Hussein in the head.

Police arrived and arrested Kendall, charging him with assault, unlawful use of a weapon and intimidation. He remained in jail on Sunday with bail set at $65,000.

According to the Statesman Journal, the intimidation charge stems from Kendall’s alleged threat to inflict injury “based on his perception of the race or national origin of the employee.”
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1069 » by dckingsfan » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:18 pm

sfam wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
sfam wrote:If you have problems with the numbers before this month, they haven't changed. Unless you are the Trump administration. They were faulty before and now are perfect.

There is no equivalence for this. There really isn't.

As for Obama not deserving credit, its really hard to look at this chart and state that. Its almost like stating that Obama handed Trump a mess of a country

Image

Again, nice chart but who deserves credit?

Again, Trump is a serial liar, I get that - but unemployment is the wrong metric - look at employment rate of 25 to 64.

Come on sfam.

I think its pretty clear who deserves credit. Both George Bush and then Obama along in close coordination with the Fed took a series of actions at the end of the Bush administration to the beginning of the Obama administration to inject funds in the economy save the car industry and on and on. This is like 8 years back. To say Obama's actions on this had no impact is pretty strange.

Don't think I said "no" impact. I just said it was limited. The stimulus didn't turn out to be great policy. It didn't really help. Bush/Obama TARP - yes although it was limited to certain industries. Both parties are now claiming responsibility for the "good times" and neither should get credit.

My point - it was the Fed that did most of the work.

And Trump's assertion that Obama is handing Trump a mess is just an absurd lie.

The fundamentals haven't been in good shape in quite some time. And both parties are happily kicking the can down the road.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1070 » by tontoz » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:20 pm

A 24-year-old Indian sportsman has been arrested here on charges of sexually abusing a minor girl, days after he arrived in the US from Kashmir for a snowshoe competition.

Tanveer Hussain arrived in the small village of Saranac Lake in New York state for the World Snowshoe Championships.
Police said he had been charged with sexual assault and endangering the welfare of a child.

He had garnered much attention before arriving for the championship after the US Embassy in New Delhi denied him and another athlete Abid Khan visas around the same time President Donald Trump had issued an order barring people from seven Muslim-dominant countries to the US.


(Follow The Tribune on Facebook; and Twitter @thetribunechd)

Though India was not among the seven countries, the denial of visa was seen associated with the executive order.
Hussain was allowed a visa to enter the US for the competition following intense lobbying from local officials and residents in the Adirondacks, as well as by US Senators Kirsten Gillibrand and Charles Schumer.

Police arrested Hussain on Wednesday after the girl, who is under the age of 13, accused him of sexually abusing her, a report in the Adirondack Daily Entreprise said.


http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/sport/indian-sportsman-held-in-us-for-sexually-abusing-minor-girl/372092.html



I can imagine his defense.. ' I wasn't molesting her I am just looking for a wife and wanted to see if she was a good kisser'.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1071 » by gtn130 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:02 pm

sfam wrote:So a guy goes for a chicken shwarma and shockingly, finds a bus boy working there who look like he might be middle eastern in decent. His immediate reaction? Make America Great by protecting a random woman standing there, who clearly is being held hostage, because she was apparently wearing a "hostage shirt". Besides, this is "what arabs do."

This dude looks a heck of a lot scarier than most Muslim Americans I've met.
Image
The disturbance at the Middle Eastern restaurant morphed within minutes from bizarre to a violent, one-sided assault.

Jason Kendall was walking down State Street about 3 p.m. Saturday when he saw a woman standing inside Al Aqsa Restaurant in Salem, Ore., according to Fox affiliate KPTV. The Mediterranean food joint is a few blocks from the state’s Capitol and Willamette University.

Kendall said he thought the woman was being held hostage because “of the type of shirt she was wearing,” the news station reported. He would later tell police that holding women hostage was “what Arabs do.”

So he walked into the restaurant and told the woman that she was “free to leave,” according to KPTV.

Then he started yelling because he saw a “Saddam Hussein-looking guy” inside the restaurant,
according to the Salem Statesman Journal.

“Go back to your country, terrorist,” he told the man. “Get out of America.”

Local media said employees were able to get Kendall to leave, but not for long.

He allegedly returned a few minutes later with a pipe — he told officers that it was his “horn of Gabriel” and that he was walking a “warrior’s path” — and started beating the man who he said looked like Hussein in the head.

Police arrived and arrested Kendall, charging him with assault, unlawful use of a weapon and intimidation. He remained in jail on Sunday with bail set at $65,000.

According to the Statesman Journal, the intimidation charge stems from Kendall’s alleged threat to inflict injury “based on his perception of the race or national origin of the employee.”


Yes but have you heard of the innumerable hate crime hoaxes that are only reported by Breitbart?
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1072 » by Wizardspride » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:13 pm

Read on Twitter

President Donald Trump referred to African countries, Haiti and El Salvador as "shithole" nations during a meeting Thursday and asked why the U.S. can't have more immigrants from Norway.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1073 » by dckingsfan » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:16 pm

Wizardspride wrote:
Read on Twitter

I just have a bad feeling that someday some evidence is going to appear :(
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1074 » by DCZards » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:24 pm

dckingsfan wrote:Don't think I said "no" impact. I just said it was limited. The stimulus didn't turn out to be great policy. It didn't really help. Bush/Obama TARP - yes although it was limited to certain industries. Both parties are now claiming responsibility for the "good times" and neither should get credit.

My point - it was the Fed that did most of the work.

And Trump's assertion that Obama is handing Trump a mess is just an absurd lie.

The fundamentals haven't been in good shape in quite some time. And both parties are happily kicking the can down the road.


dckings, seems like you've bought into the Repub propaganda about the Obama stimulus not working. Here's another perspective from the NYT editorial page on Feb. 22, 2014.

What the Stimulus Accomplished

Of all the myths and falsehoods that Republicans have spread about President Obama, the most pernicious and long-lasting is that the $832 billion stimulus package did not work. Since 2009, Republican lawmakers have inextricably linked the words “failed” and “stimulus,” and last week, five years after passage of the Recovery Act, they dusted off their old playbook again.

“The ‘stimulus’ has turned out to be a classic case of big promises and big spending with little results,” wrote Speaker John Boehner. “Five years and hundreds of billions of dollars later, millions of families are still asking, ‘where are the jobs?’ ”

The stimulus could have done more good had it been bigger and more carefully constructed. But put simply, it prevented a second recession that could have turned into a depression. It created or saved an average of 1.6 million jobs a year for four years. (There are the jobs, Mr. Boehner.) It raised the nation’s economic output by 2 to 3 percent from 2009 to 2011. It prevented a significant increase in poverty — without it, 5.3 million additional people would have become poor in 2010.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/23/opinion/sunday/what-the-stimulus-accomplished.html?_r=0
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1075 » by Wizardspride » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:26 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
Wizardspride wrote:
Read on Twitter

I just have a bad feeling that someday some evidence is going to appear :(



Trump said the former President wiretapped him. I'd be shocked if that was the case,

On the other hand, wouldn't be surprised if some of his associates were being monitored.


The funny thing is (from what I've read) Trump has the power to request any FISA warrant...so this all could be put to rest....if he wanted.

He also could simply have a meeting with the FBI director and ask him. Apparently, he won't do that either....


Bottomline: If you accuse a former president of committing a crime I would assume you already have "some" evidence.

Present it or apologize and STFU.


Edit:
Looks like Sen. McCain shares my opinion
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/nation/2017/03/12/mccain-to-trump-provide-wiretap-evidence-or-retract-claim/99106662/

WASHINGTON (AP) — The House intelligence committee is asking the Trump administration for evidence that the phones at Trump Tower were tapped during the campaign as its namesake has charged, a request reinforced Sunday by an influential Republican senator who says the president must either come up with the evidence or retract his claim.

"I think the president has one of two choices: either retract or to provide the information that the American people deserve, because, if his predecessor violated the law, President Obama violated the law, we have got a serious issue here, to say the least," Sen. John McCain said.

President Donald Trump referred to African countries, Haiti and El Salvador as "shithole" nations during a meeting Thursday and asked why the U.S. can't have more immigrants from Norway.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1076 » by dckingsfan » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:44 pm

DCZards wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:Don't think I said "no" impact. I just said it was limited. The stimulus didn't turn out to be great policy. It didn't really help. Bush/Obama TARP - yes although it was limited to certain industries. Both parties are now claiming responsibility for the "good times" and neither should get credit.

My point - it was the Fed that did most of the work.

And Trump's assertion that Obama is handing Trump a mess is just an absurd lie.

The fundamentals haven't been in good shape in quite some time. And both parties are happily kicking the can down the road.


dckings, seems like you've bought into the Repub propaganda about the Obama stimulus not working. Here's another perspective from the NYT editorial page on Feb. 22, 2014.

What the Stimulus Accomplished

Of all the myths and falsehoods that Republicans have spread about President Obama, the most pernicious and long-lasting is that the $832 billion stimulus package did not work. Since 2009, Republican lawmakers have inextricably linked the words “failed” and “stimulus,” and last week, five years after passage of the Recovery Act, they dusted off their old playbook again.

“The ‘stimulus’ has turned out to be a classic case of big promises and big spending with little results,” wrote Speaker John Boehner. “Five years and hundreds of billions of dollars later, millions of families are still asking, ‘where are the jobs?’ ”

The stimulus could have done more good had it been bigger and more carefully constructed. But put simply, it prevented a second recession that could have turned into a depression. It created or saved an average of 1.6 million jobs a year for four years. (There are the jobs, Mr. Boehner.) It raised the nation’s economic output by 2 to 3 percent from 2009 to 2011. It prevented a significant increase in poverty — without it, 5.3 million additional people would have become poor in 2010.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/23/opinion/sunday/what-the-stimulus-accomplished.html?_r=0

Hey Zards, you know I don't "buy into" anything. I don't like that the Rs are assigning the word "failed" to the stimulus either. But if we are going to be rational about it - we want to learn for the next time, no?

The "facts" you are citing just aren't. They are opinions (although I respect Elmendorf, there is some disagreement between the CBO and Fed as you might expect). Those jobs would have come back - just with the Fed's quantitative easing. The real question is did the stimulus just accelerate the crowding out of other spending which would hold back long-term economic growth? Does the addition of the debt load created by that stimulus leave us less room to maneuver for the next recession?

If you aren't looking at the spin of WSH, NY Times or on the other side, the Heritage Foundation or Fox News. I think you might come up with a different perspective.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1077 » by dckingsfan » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:46 pm

Wizardspride wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
Wizardspride wrote:
Read on Twitter

I just have a bad feeling that someday some evidence is going to appear :(

Trump said the former President wiretapped him. I'd be shocked if that was the case,

On the other hand, wouldn't be surprised if some of his associates were being monitored.

The funny thing is (from what I've read) Trump has the power to request any FISA warrant...so this all could be put to rest....if he wanted.

He also could simply have a meeting with the FBI director and ask him. Apparently, he won't do that either....

Bottomline: If you accuse a former president of committing a crime I would assume you already have the evidence so no need for an investigation. Present it or apologize and STFU.

Edit:
Looks like Sen. McCain shares my opinion
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/nation/2017/03/12/mccain-to-trump-provide-wiretap-evidence-or-retract-claim/99106662/

WASHINGTON (AP) — The House intelligence committee is asking the Trump administration for evidence that the phones at Trump Tower were tapped during the campaign as its namesake has charged, a request reinforced Sunday by an influential Republican senator who says the president must either come up with the evidence or retract his claim.

"I think the president has one of two choices: either retract or to provide the information that the American people deserve, because, if his predecessor violated the law, President Obama violated the law, we have got a serious issue here, to say the least," Sen. John McCain said.

Yeah, I don't think they will ever be able to find that Obama ordered the wiretap - I don't think he would ever do that. I worry that there would be some time of monitoring where he was on the line. And then we are going to be back into the finger pointing mode.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1078 » by DCZards » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:52 pm

dckingsfan wrote:The "facts" you are citing just aren't. They are opinions (although I respect Elmendorf, there is some disagreement between the CBO and Fed as you might expect). Those jobs would have come back - just with the Fed's quantitative easing. The real question is did the stimulus just accelerate the crowding out of other spending which would hold back long-term economic growth? Does the addition of the debt load created by that stimulus leave us less room to maneuver for the next recession?

If you aren't looking at the spin of WSH, NY Times or on the other side, the Heritage Foundation or Fox News. I think you might come up with a different perspective.


So my question to you is, if you don't believe either side, what leads you to the conclusion that the stimulus didn't work? Where are your facts? Otherwise, all you have to go on is your opinion, which, imo, is less valid and credible than that of the NYT.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1079 » by DCZards » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:00 pm

dckingsfan wrote:Yeah, I don't think they will ever be able to find that Obama ordered the wiretap - I don't think he would ever do that. I worry that there would be some time of monitoring where he was on the line. And then we are going to be back into the finger pointing mode.


If the FBI got the legal authority to wiretap Trump and/or Trump Tower then that means they likely had some evidence that Trump or someone at Trump Tower was doing some questionable business with the Russians, which doesn't bode well for #45.

But I think the reality is that our blowhard president was just spouting off his usual nonsense (maybe based on his unreliable right-wing sources)...not thinking that he'd be called to account for making such a serious charge against a former president.

This is what happens when you elect a juvenile to a position that only adults should hold.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1080 » by dckingsfan » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:11 pm

DCZards wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:The "facts" you are citing just aren't. They are opinions (although I respect Elmendorf, there is some disagreement between the CBO and Fed as you might expect). Those jobs would have come back - just with the Fed's quantitative easing. The real question is did the stimulus just accelerate the crowding out of other spending which would hold back long-term economic growth? Does the addition of the debt load created by that stimulus leave us less room to maneuver for the next recession?

If you aren't looking at the spin of WSH, NY Times or on the other side, the Heritage Foundation or Fox News. I think you might come up with a different perspective.

So my question to you is, if you don't believe either side, what leads you to the conclusion that the stimulus didn't work? Where are your facts? Otherwise, all you have to go on is your opinion, which, imo, is less valid and credible than that of the NYT.

Well, there seems to be two opinions. Rs - the stimulus failed. Ds - the stimulus saved the economy.

The NYT spins it as the latter. I will let you find the right wing media outlet that supports the former.

The truth is it was neither. If it did fail, it was only against what was promised by those who were passing the bill. The truth is that it didn't hurt the economy, it just didn't help as much as what the Fed did.

But it did have long-term affects that were negative. Continual crowding out of other spending due to the debt load and a diminished ability to respond to the next recession.

I don't even see those points mentioned in the editorial. Thinking that wouldn't help their "spin" which is clearly what the opinion piece was.

What is most worrisome is that as we accumulate debt, our ability to respond to these crisis becomes diminished. And all sides (well, the CBO and FED) agree on that.

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