2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)

[Egg Nog]

LeBron didn't win it after what was probably his best season, the year Durant won.

[hybrid619]

Westbrook continues to amaze.. Harden deserves a great amount of credit but I think the past few weeks Russ has gained too much momentum

[Scalabrine]

kobe bryant 2005-2006 is a must to mention. not only his crazy ppg, which was 35,4, he also played 41 mpg in 80 games totally. Nobody got ever close to that scoring figure in the last two decades. he led the team to the 7th seed in the west and nearly eliminated suns in the first round. Was a phenomenal season by kobe.

Had a far better individual season than Nash who won MVP. Nash's team won 9 more games.

That first MVP was real iffy for Nash. Real iffy.

Why so iffy? He was just as much the engine of that team as harden and wb. They just fell apart whenever he wasn't on the floor.


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[Brt19]

kobe bryant 2005-2006 is a must to mention. not only his crazy ppg, which was 35,4, he also played 41 mpg in 80 games totally. Nobody got ever close to that scoring figure in the last two decades. he led the team to the 7th seed in the west and nearly eliminated suns in the first round. Was a phenomenal season by kobe.

Had a far better individual season than Nash who won MVP. Nash's team won 9 more games.

That first MVP was real iffy for Nash. Real iffy.

His second was iffy too

[Black Jack]

Had a far better individual season than Nash who won MVP. Nash's team won 9 more games.

That first MVP was real iffy for Nash. Real iffy.

Why so iffy? He was just as much the engine of that team as harden and wb. They just fell apart whenever he wasn't on the floor.


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sorry I meant his 04-05 stats. raw stats of 16.5 and 11.5 just didn't deserve it in my opinion. I liked that squad but the media really hyped them up. his following year's 18.8 / 10.5 raw stats were more reasonable for an mvp winner to me. yeah i realize its a small difference but i really think the MVP should score more than 16.5 ppg.

[Starboy]

It is Westbrook's now and in no way undeserved, especially with all the clutch late game winners.

I would still prefer to build a team with this year's (not so much the Harden from previous years) Harden myself than Westbrook though.

It is tough for him and his fans if he is denied on the basis of another player's better statistics when he was previously denied with superior statistics because of the superiority of the record of another player's team. I am biased, but that other team back then did have a quite unpredicted dominant season, significantly better than Houston's this year, and did thoroughly smash Houston in the regular season. Still hard to argue against him having a gripe if he is denied the MVP award in 2 different seasons for polar opposite reasons, with reasonable grounds for arguing that either one or the other denial was unfair.

But did he really have superior statistics though?

Not an argument I care to re-visit in this context as a GSW/Curry fan, but trying to look at things without that perspective he had good statistics and at least a ppg advantage and it was widely argued GSW's superior record was what clinched it for Curry.

Harden had worse statistics all around. He had higher counting stats for casual fans due to Steph playing siginificantly less minutes.

[Starboy]

Eveb if Westbrook does not get the PSPA record, I still think that there will be a strong argument for this as the GOAT offensive season in the history of the sport.

nobody whose opinion matters thinks this. He's not touching peak jordan, Curry, Lebron, magic, shaq.

[AdagioPace]

Harden endorses Kawhi Leonard for MVP:

"I think that's the most important thing. I thought winning is what this is about -- period," Harden said after recording his 21st triple-double of the season in the Rockets' win over the Sacramento Kings on Sunday. "I'm not going to get in-depth with all that, but I thought winning was the most important thing. If you set your team up in a position to have a chance, at the ultimate goal, that's the most important thing."

[jwise44]

I think westy wins it now, and good for him...he's had a godly and historic season


I wish harden would win, but now I think Westbrook deserves it....I feel bad for harden because he has had an insane season, but I'm just hoping we and he play well in the playoffs

[Bertrob]

LeBron didn't win it after what was probably his best season, the year Durant won.

13 was his best season, not 14

[Leslie Forman]

In terms of pure pace-adjusted counting stats, yes, this just might be it. The turnovers kill him in advanced metrics though.

Oscar in 62 with a triple double was behind Wilt and Russell (MVP) in the MVP voting.

Oscar's stats were actually quite a bit lower when pace is taken into account. Even Wilt's 50/25 isn't actually that crazy when accounting for pace.

sorry I meant his 04-05 stats. raw stats of 16.5 and 11.5 just didn't deserve it in my opinion. I liked that squad but the media really hyped them up. his following year's 18.8 / 10.5 raw stats were more reasonable for an mvp winner to me. yeah i realize its a small difference but i really think the MVP should score more than 16.5 ppg.

So not a fan of Bill Russell's MVPs, I take it?

[michaelm]

But did he really have superior statistics though?

Not an argument I care to re-visit in this context as a GSW/Curry fan, but trying to look at things without that perspective he had good statistics and at least a ppg advantage and it was widely argued GSW's superior record was what clinched it for Curry.

Harden had worse statistics all around. He had higher counting stats for casual fans due to Steph playing siginificantly less minutes.

I am a GSW/Curry fan who followed that season avidly. What do you think my opinion might be?

[RightToCensor]

ESPN is trying to stir up something with Harden and that "winning is important" quote, expect to see that on the usual lineup of ESPN shows. It only takes one idiot to take a phrase out of context and run a story on it that'll have some fake narrative applied to it. It's a shame how people get manipulated into starting turf wars over things that are manufactured by the media.

[RightToCensor]

The more I look at Westbrook's basic and advanced stats the more I want to lean his way, but seeing the same people that defend Westbrook unfairly bash Harden, Morey, and others that support The Beard's candidacy makes me want to vote Harden and support him. Guys can't even act nonpartisan anymore, it's just a full-out jerking of circles at this point.

[Bergmaniac]

I am rooting for Russ since I am a huge fan of him plus I really want the dumb tradition of not ever giving the award to a player of a lower seed to end, it's been bugging me for quite a few years, but Harden and Kawhi have been awesome too and also deserve it, it's been a great season, it's a shame there could be only one one winner.

[Quotatious]

2016-17 Harden, 2005-06 Bryant, 1993-94 Robinson, 1961-62 Robertson, are all great mentions.

1972-73 Tiny Archibald deserves to be mentioned. Led the league in scoring and assists at the same time (427 more points than second place Kareem, and 273 more assists than second place Dave Bing, so he won in both categories by a large margin), shot 55.5% TS (which is 5.7% above league average in 1973, and era-relative, it's almost as efficient as Harden's scoring today - keep in mind that Tiny did it without 3-point line, in a bigman-dominated league, as one of the smallest players in the league - shot almost 49% FG and 85% FT - that's amazing). He also anchored the best offense in the league, so his individual impact was undeniable (but he had a really bad supporting cast and they finished as the worst defensive team in the league, and only 36-46 record).

To this day, '73 Tiny is still the only player in NBA history to lead the league in total points and assists in the same season (Oscar Robertson led the NBA in points and assists PER GAME in 1967-68 season, but as far as I'm concerned, leading the league in TOTAL points and assists is more impressive than points and assists PER GAME, because there's a durability factor that you have to possess to lead it in totals - Oscar played 65 games in '68, Tiny played 80 in '73 - as a result of missing 17 games, Oscar was only 6th in total points and third in total assists, despite leading the league on a per-game basis).

Archibald finished 3rd behind Cowens and Abdul-Jabbar in 1973 MVP voting.

[B-easy]

The biggest advantage for Westbrook is the way his team plays when he is on the bench compared to Hardens.

[baldur]

can it be shared between westbrook and harden? is it technically and practically possible?

[markjay]

I just realized that Westbrook is demolishing the NBA record for highest BPM. He is currently at 15.6, which is 20% higher than the best single season recorded previously, Lebron James in 2008-09 (12.99). Westbrook is also on pace to set the single-season record for VORP; he is currently at 12.38, compared to Michael Jordan's 11.98 in 1988-1989.

Data exists for BPM and VORP since the 1973-74 season.

[weekend_warrior]

He is currently 2nd in DBPM in the league, sandwiched between Draymond and Gobert. Something tells me that stat is heavily flawed...

Westbrook broke DBPM with his defensive rebound numbers.